The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahigu View Post
    You do get a racial bonus feat, you may pick one from those on the MMII statblock OR..

    You did have a staff of evocation, now it's probably in the Lord's treasury if it hasn't been sold, use staff still lets you bypass UMD checks; and instead of a racial feat you may have Craft Staff, and the possibility to recreate your staff of evocation partially or fully, even if you don't have spell access (gold, time and XP still needed); spellcasting from a class could also be used for crafting.
    That's fits very nicely with the Yak Folk lore. I'll take it. I can use my Factotum SLAs and UMD ranks to make low level magic staves, which could be interesting.
    Hopefully I'll be able to find the time to craft it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwarforged View Post
    You sir are a True Pirate Lord.

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Quote Originally Posted by samduke View Post
    can I put say RHD on 1 track and LA on the other track ? track 1; track 2
    once that is solved does any class in track then take EXP cumulative to the RHD or LA or Combo of both ?
    do the classes count exp separate from the total monster ECL?
    RHD and LA can only be added to track 1, so after spending 36k XP for a 9 ECL creature you still have 14k to either increase your ECL with templates, RHD or class levels on track 1, or start a gestalt track (1k XP) at 1st level, that second track can then start leveling up normally (1k for lvl 2, 2k for lvl 3, etc.); a tristalt track at 1st level costs 2k XP out of whatever remains unexpended, and it levels up the same way as the gestalt track. The same pattern repeats for additional tracks at lvl 1. Again, think of levels and tracks as building blocks on separate stacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeMonsters View Post
    Ok here is how I understand it.
    Say my race has 2 RHD and an LA of 4
    Track one looks like RHD2/LA4/ClassX
    With Track two being //ClassX
    Yes, and the first class level on track 1 is the 7th level on that track (in your 6 ECL example) meaning the 7th level in track two can't be the same exact class to avoid overlapping.

    Quote Originally Posted by MinotaurWarblad View Post
    The multi-stalting thing is pretty cool IMO, but it does take some handling, eh?
    It's feeling like I jumped to the deep end by debuting it on a monster game; but I'm glad you think it's cool.

    @Warlawk You also asked about Dragon magazine content, I don't have many samples but if you ask for something specific I can try the old Google-fu and consider the content.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    To stick to my gimmick of tiny fey looking girls.
    Would the LA of the Coure be adjusted?
    Coure is from Book of Exalted Deeds pg 168

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahigu View Post
    @Warlawk You also asked about Dragon magazine content, I don't have many samples but if you ask for something specific I can try the old Google-fu and consider the content.
    I appreciate you checking back on that. I had actually forgotten how stupidly OP the 1/2 ogre and 1/2 minotaur templates were. Google them if you want a laugh (keeping in mind that they apply the stat changes for going from Medium to Large). In the neighborhood of +12 Str +6 Con and upgrade to large size for 1 LA. I just went with the Half Ogre race from Savage species and then I've got a few templates to turn it into something a bit more unique. Not quite ready for the reveal though.
    A man who dies fighting with his principles intact dies in glory. To expect enemies to follow the same code of honor defiles that honor, reducing it to a set of arbitrary rules.

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Warlawk View Post
    I appreciate you checking back on that. I had actually forgotten how stupidly OP the 1/2 ogre and 1/2 minotaur templates were. Google them if you want a laugh (keeping in mind that they apply the stat changes for going from Medium to Large). In the neighborhood of +12 Str +6 Con and upgrade to large size for 1 LA. I just went with the Half Ogre race from Savage species and then I've got a few templates to turn it into something a bit more unique. Not quite ready for the reveal though.
    Now see I dont see the Half Minotaur and the half Orge templates as all that broken. Now Half-Illithid might be with an instant kill and potentially allowing Illithid Savant abuse.

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeMonsters View Post
    Now see I dont see the Half Minotaur and the half Orge templates as all that broken. Now Half-Illithid might be with an instant kill and potentially allowing Illithid Savant abuse.
    Oh I wouldn't say they're broken per se. They are however, way overtuned compared to other 1LA templates.
    A man who dies fighting with his principles intact dies in glory. To expect enemies to follow the same code of honor defiles that honor, reducing it to a set of arbitrary rules.

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    With gestalting.... Do we get to pick the LA/HD order? As in, an ecl 9 critter with 2 la and 7 rhd with two class levels in track 2: Could that have 9 total hit dice via putting the la first to pair with the class levels?

    Looking at a Gloura.
    Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2019-10-11 at 07:31 PM.
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    okay so if i understand correctly
    50k - 1k for gestalt +1 track = 49k
    track 1: ECL 9 = 36k then add class A, 3 levels 3,000 exp - making track 1 a total ECL of 12
    track 2: Class C, 2 levels, Class B, 3 levels 10,000 exp - making track 2 a total ECL of 5

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Quote Originally Posted by samduke View Post
    okay so if i understand correctly
    50k - 1k for gestalt +1 track = 49k
    track 1: ECL 9 = 36k then add class A, 3 levels 3,000 exp - making track 1 a total ECL of 12
    track 2: Class C, 2 levels, Class B, 3 levels 10,000 exp - making track 2 a total ECL of 5
    I think your track 1 is wrong. You wouldn't start over from 0 EXP when you hit class levels.
    So you would have 13K left after a lvl 9 ECL. If you added three class levels you would be paying 30K extra EXP
    So at best you could do an ECL 9 in track one, and at most an ECL of 5 on the other side leaving you with extra exp at the end of it.

    Or maybe I misunderstood entirely

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Let's see... 50k to spend.

    45k buys ECL 10 on track 1.
    1k buys track 2 at level 1.
    1k more bumps track 2 up to level 2.
    1k more buys track 3 at level 1.
    1k more buys track 3 to level 2.
    1k more buys track 4 at level 1.
    =50k.

    So an ECL 10 character, with two gestalt tracks at level 2, and one gestalt track at level 1. Am I mathing this right?
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_Simth View Post
    Let's see... 50k to spend.

    45k buys ECL 10 on track 1.
    1k buys track 2 at level 1.
    1k more bumps track 2 up to level 2.
    1k more buys track 3 at level 1.
    1k more buys track 3 to level 2.
    1k more buys track 4 at level 1.
    =50k.

    So an ECL 10 character, with two gestalt tracks at level 2, and one gestalt track at level 1. Am I mathing this right?
    From how I read it. Track two has a cost of 1000 to start it.
    Track three has a 2000 cost
    Track four would be 3000 to start.
    And those are the Start the track, I am not sure if that counts as level 1. I would presume but I am not sure its not a separate cost.
    Such as my idea of a ECL 8 costings me 28K, 1K for a second track. And an additional 21K for ECL 7 on that other side.

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    Chimera

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    From the GM's example in the first post:

    Second track level 1 costs 1k xp. Second track level 2 costs 1k xp (as normal). Second track level 3 costs 2k xp (as normal). Total of 4000 xp = 3k xp for level 3 +1k xp for adding the track to begin with. And so on.

    Third track level 1 costs 2k xp. Third track level 2 costs 1k xp (as normal). Third track level 3 costs 2k xp (as normal). Total of 5000 xp = 3k xp for level 3 +2k xp for adding the track to begin with. And so on.

    Edit: Having primary 4//secondary 3//tertiary 3 should cost 15,000 xp = 6k xp for level 4 in primary +3k xp for level 3 in secondary +3k xp for level 3 in tertiary +1k xp for secondary track existing (starting level 1) +2k xp for tertiary track existing (starting level 1).
    Last edited by MinotaurWarblad; 2019-10-11 at 10:08 PM.

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeMonsters View Post
    I think your track 1 is wrong. You wouldn't start over from 0 EXP when you hit class levels.
    So you would have 13K left after a lvl 9 ECL. If you added three class levels you would be paying 30K extra EXP
    So at best you could do an ECL 9 in track one, and at most an ECL of 5 on the other side leaving you with extra exp at the end of it.

    Or maybe I misunderstood entirely
    no i think you got it correct, i just needed to see it differently.
    edit
    T1: ecl 9 36k (because 45k ecl 10 makes little sense)
    add track 1k
    T2: ecl 5 at 13k (as it leaves 4k or ecl 3)

    now how will leveling up work?? normal gestalt rules say best of X at each ecl level is this still applied?

    because of the uneven levels are we exempt for multi-class exp rule??
    otherwise in T2: I need 22k for ecl 9, before even with T1: .. As a normal gestalt progression both tracks of which would be the same regardless.

    note to GM while the idea has merit, the split exp over tracks makes things a bit odd for leveling up...
    as in my proposed case, for T1 to goto ecl 10 needs 9k, but for the same 9k I could get ecl 7 on T2
    Last edited by samduke; 2019-10-12 at 02:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Might be interested in this. Recently started looking into ways of making ooze playable and interesting.
    Current Avatar (Sunny and Violet) was created by the incredibly talented AsteriskAmp.
    Many thanks!

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Thumbs down Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Quote Originally Posted by samduke View Post
    no i think you got it correct, i just needed to see it differently.
    edit
    T1: ecl 9 36k (because 45k ecl 10 makes little sense)
    add track 1k
    T2: ecl 5 at 13k (as it leaves 4k or ecl 3)

    now how will leveling up work?? normal gestalt rules say best of X at each ecl level is this still applied?

    because of the uneven levels are we exempt for multi-class exp rule??
    otherwise in T2: I need 22k for ecl 9, before even with T1: .. As a normal gestalt progression both tracks of which would be the same regardless.

    note to GM while the idea has merit, the split exp over tracks makes things a bit odd for leveling up...
    as in my proposed case, for T1 to goto ecl 10 needs 9k, but for the same 9k I could get ecl 7 on T2
    I'll offer my understanding to try to clarify, but please know I'm not the DM, so they will clarify for both of us as needed, and this is also to see if I understand it appropriately.

    I've been operating under the assumption that there is no multiclass XP penalty (because that would make this already complex level system needlessly moreso).

    I'm guessing level up will work something like:
    You have sufficient XP to advance one of your tracks, so you choose to advance one track: either track 1, track 2 (as long as advancement wouldn't pass the level of track 1), or track 3 (if it wouldn't exceed track 2's level). You expend your XPs and add a level.

    Once you add the class level to your chosen track, if it's not your primary track, you have to recalculate the benefits of that specific level. Eg if my character, a yak folk 7 // factotum 6 // warblade 5 advanced to 7 // 6 // warblade 6, my BAB wouldn't increase by 1, but the 6th class level providing .75 BAB increase would upgrade to providing 1, net benefit of +0.25 BAB. Saves and HP and skill points would occur similarly.

    If it is your primary track, you would get new HP, BAB and save values added in total. So advancing to Yak Folk 7 / Warblade 1 // Factotum 6 / Warblade 5 would net me +1 BAB and 1d12 worth of hit dice and HP, etc. If your primary track reaches a level where you would gain a feat, you get to select a feat. You don't get feats for advancement of other tracks: Eg moving from Track One ecl 8 // Track Two ecl 8 to 9 // 8 would grant a new feat while going from Track One ecl 9 // Track Two ecl 8 to 9 // 9 doesn't grant you a new feat.

    Though you would always gain the class features as long as you're eligible to put that level at that place on that track.

    Eg I couldn't eventually advance to this:
    Yak Folk 7 / Factotum 3 // Factotum 10...
    Because I can't combine Factotum with Factotum at the same ECL on separate tracks - my 8th level an on would be Factotum // Factotum, which isn't allowed.

    However, this example would be OK:
    Yak Folk 7 / Factotum 3 // Factotum 7 / Warblade 3 // Warblade 7 because at no ECL on any track would my level include the same class twice.

    So you get feats and a lot more numeric bonus for advancement of your Track 1. However, you can add class features to your character for less XP by advancing your second or third track, you just may get no or reduced gains on your HP, BAB, Saves and skills etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwarforged View Post
    You sir are a True Pirate Lord.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aegis013 View Post
    I'll offer my understanding to try to clarify, but please know I'm not the DM, so they will clarify for both of us as needed, and this is also to see if I understand it appropriately.

    I've been operating under the assumption that there is no multiclass XP penalty (because that would make this already complex level system needlessly moreso).

    So you get feats and a lot more numeric bonus for advancement of your Track 1. However, you can add class features to your character for less XP by advancing your second or third track, you just may get no or reduced gains on your HP, BAB, Saves and skills etc.
    right that is about what I figured.
    The GM put
    Feat per HD, capped at ECL
    which is odd in my case I have 4 hd + 5 la for 9 ecl in track 1 and 5 class levels or 5 HD for track 2

    so is this saying that I would have 5 feats or 9 feats?

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Thanks HBM, Minotaur and Aegis for the support, you are all correct in the XP spending.

    @Jacksmith RHD take up the first levels on the primary track, then LA and lastly any class levels on top of that track. That said, Gloura is reduced to a +1 LA créature.

    @samduke 1 feat per HD, the capped at ECLbit was redundant with the restriction for the 2nd track not exceeding the primary ECL. Since your 5th class level on the second track gestalts with an LA 'level' it does give you a 5 HD total, four of which are maximum value aberration HD

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    So if I have ECL 8 on one side and ECL 7 on the other. So I have 7-8 Feats?
    How will advancement work? I would like a clear cut answer so I can copy it into first post.

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahigu View Post
    Thanks HBM, Minotaur and Aegis for the support, you are all correct in the XP spending.

    @Jacksmith RHD take up the first levels on the primary track, then LA and lastly any class levels on top of that track. That said, Gloura is reduced to a +1 LA créature.

    @samduke 1 feat per HD, the capped at ECLbit was redundant with the restriction for the 2nd track not exceeding the primary ECL. Since your 5th class level on the second track gestalts with an LA 'level' it does give you a 5 HD total, four of which are maximum value aberration HD
    Somewhere I had missed the feat per HD. For clarification, since my character is RHD 5 / LA +2 // Factotum 6 // Warblade 5 - this means I would have 6 feats excluding bonus feats from class features? Or do my +2 LA count towards providing feats? Providing 7 feats total?
    Last edited by Aegis013; 2019-10-12 at 01:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thatwarforged View Post
    You sir are a True Pirate Lord.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahigu View Post
    it does give you a 5 HD total, four of which are maximum value aberration HD
    except the class HD is better so if i read correctly it would be max 1st then avg for the others and then 5 feats for 5 HD

    and I think that Venus is ready but if something is off let me know

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aegis013 View Post
    Somewhere I had missed the feat per HD. For clarification, since my character is RHD 5 / LA +2 // Factotum 6 // Warblade 5 - this means I would have 6 feats excluding bonus feats from class features? Or do my +2 LA count towards providing feats? Providing 7 feats total?
    6 feats from HD plus any bonus feats from class features

    Quote Originally Posted by samduke View Post
    except the class HD is better so if i read correctly it would be max 1st then avg for the others and then 5 feats for 5 HD

    and I think that Venus is ready but if something is off let me know
    A standard Sharn has 4 HD and 5 feats. Following a standard feat progression, it can be assumed three of them are bonus feats, and you included all 5 in your sheet as bonus feats, you may choose three among them.

    Lastly, since a maxed d8 is better than avg+ d10, you may use those for hp total on levels 2-4, 1st level remains a maxed d10 from class.
    Last edited by Sahigu; 2019-10-12 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    So, I'm considering an alternate character instead of the Succubus (whose first class would be either Spellthief or Factotum I think).

    Would Vampire as a +3 be an accepted option? I'd consider attaching it to Sirene except the total effective level would be 11, which is more than we have budget for. (Sirene does not have an entry in the Adjusted LA thread, nor anything from Monster Manual II.)

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    There is a decent savage progression for the vampire, if i remember correctly... Take it only to the 5th or 6th level and it isn't so bad.
    Last edited by MinotaurWarblad; 2019-10-12 at 03:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MinotaurWarblad View Post
    There is a decent savage progression for the vampire, if i remember correctly... Take it only to the 5th or 6th level and it isn't so bad.
    The one I know of is for Vampire Spawn, so can you advise me as to the source for that? Thank you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by NekoIncardine View Post
    The one I know of is for Vampire Spawn, so can you advise me as to the source for that? Thank you!
    http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/sp/20030824a

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    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeMonsters View Post
    So if I have ECL 8 on one side and ECL 7 on the other. So I have 7-8 Feats?
    How will advancement work? I would like a clear cut answer so I can copy it into first post.
    Sorry I missed this, advancement once play starts will be by further spending XP on each track separately, if someone starts with a 7 ECL //7 class A//3 Class B then they would have 7 total HD (and feats) regardless of LA, since some of class A HD would overlap all current LA.

    If track one is advanced to 8th level with a class, the new level would advance the HD count since it is placed on top of RHD and LA. The opposite applies when the primary track ECL is advanced on an incomplete monster progression where a new level adds RHD or LA, since either results in the highest ECL occupied by 1 LA.

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    Would you be ok if I played a Maurezhi (Tanar'ri) from Fiend Folio I dont know why but I came across the artwork of that creature and was like "Oh yeah for sure the Baron would have one of these in his collection, this dangerous looking demon thing that eats bodies. Totally the Baron fed his enemies to this thing."

    Edit:
    Ok want to make it clear, not trying to power game or anything.
    I would want to remove the Summon creatures ability and alter the Consume ability.
    Instead of it giving extra hit dice and all that, it still feeds into his change shape ability.
    But what this does it allow the character to once they have consumed the victim to try and recall any and all information that the victim knew in life. This could range from secret personal info, locations of their house, maybe even their spells known (Which could be then scribed down if the character has the feats for that.)
    I think it would be great for pushing the storyline ahead, with a easy way for the characters to recall info just by having the Maurezhi (Maury) shapeshift back into the form and rolling to recall the info.

    Maybe allowing him to hold these mental templates to a limited degree. So maybe 1 per HD, or 1 per 2 HD
    Though I would have to question if a Sorcerer Maurezhi with this version of Consume shapeshifted into a character with spells known.. would they be added to their spells known taking the place of the characters original? Personally I would think it would be an interesting twist but more work for you so it would be up to you. I would think perhaps a Wizard or an Arcanist from PF would suit it better, and with no Int bonus by default that might be a little more fair.

    That way its LA should be lower something like +3 or so. Consume as it is, even with dropping Summoned would be +5 or more. Barghest have a similar ability and their LA is like 5.

    I am of course open to working with you to make this work.
    Last edited by HereBeMonsters; 2019-10-13 at 02:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahigu View Post
    A standard Sharn has 4 HD and 5 feats. Following a standard feat progression, it can be assumed three of them are bonus feats, and you included all 5 in your sheet as bonus feats, you may choose three among them.

    Lastly, since a maxed d8 is better than avg+ d10, you may use those for hp total on levels 2-4, 1st level remains a maxed d10 from class.
    unless I am really mistaken I listed the bonus feats as BF, the regular feats as a level IE 01, and all RHD BF are in addition to any regular feats, and I listed the Sharns specific BF 1st on the BF list, all other BF come from other sources.

    okay on HP I will readjust those to reflect 4d8+1d10 maxed
    Last edited by samduke; 2019-10-13 at 05:22 AM.

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    Hmm. This is interesting to say the least. Though I take it that skald/bard from pathfinder are not allowed?
    Animated Spellcards from the Deck of Many Things
    A game I found interesting Aegis: Innocence

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    Default Re: Gestalt 3.P Monster Game

    Okay, so as I'm still considering options, I'd like to ask about T.G. Oskar's Warlock fix, which nerfs the strongest combos but brings the floor of functionality up a ways in turn:
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ntend-to-break!

    Separately, can I ask about using Pathfinder's Wilder (which is by Dreamscarred Press but which Paizo has promoted on their forums as "this is Psionics for Pathfinder" since their Psychic Magic turned out to be vastly different)?
    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-...lasses/wilder/

    If Warlock is approved I would not be going for this.

    The other options I'm considering right now (and yes they're kinda disparate) are Spellthief or maybe Factotum.

    Finally - may I have her lose the 1/day Summon Vrock for a low-quality feat (such as those listed in http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.ph...e=Barely_Feats )? Fluffwise, she was stupid enough to get captured by a monster collector, no Vrock's gonna respect her after that one. (If you've seen Coco, think the reactions to Hector being called "Chorizo", that's how I picture it.)

    ---

    My vision for the character (and thus why classes are so hard to consider here, because this doesn't narrow my options any!) is that she's under the sway of a variant ring of enslavement (Underdark, Page 71), with a refluff of the dominate impacting her thoughts. In other words, she was perfectly physically capable of fleeing the menagerie via greater teleport or ethereal shift at any time, but unable to want to.

    Presumably, very early on, one of the party members will get their hands on the master ring or manage to remove curse the ring off her and thus free her (or some dramatic condition specific to the ring variant occurs and breaks it, since the full set of rings is worth 120k GP). I'm picturing her alignment as having shifted to Chaotic Neutral before she was captured, on the simple basis of 'I'd rather do stuff for myself' - she sticks with the party out of a mix of gratefulness and realizing the group could be very handy allies as she adjusts to her new situation.
    Last edited by NekoIncardine; 2019-10-14 at 12:06 AM.

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