Hunger of Hadar vs Spirit Guardians

[Lord Haart]

Anything in your vision field blocks whats behind, a box prevents you from seeing whats inside... its not very hard.

I'm very interested in seeing the relevant quote, or learning the page number.

[Rukelnikov]

I'm very interested in seeing the relevant quote, or learning the page number.

Its called real world, and having eyes, can you see behind a wall or inside a closed box?

[JackPhoenix]

Anything in your vision field blocks whats behind, a box prevents you from seeing whats inside... its not very hard.

Weird. I wear glasses right now, which means they are in my vision field, yet I can see what's in front of me. Same if I look out of the window (though it's night outside, so there isn't much to see). I can even take my *black* (because black is what's so important about HoH, apparently) sunglasses, put them on, and still be able to see whatevever is in front of me just fine. I can do the same with the homemade filter (made out of multiple layers of exposed film.... also black) I've used to watch solar eclipse years ago... I won't see much, but bright enough light sources are still visible.

[Rukelnikov]

Weird. I wear glasses right now, which means they are in my vision field, yet I can see what's in front of me. Same if I look out of the window (though it's night outside, so there isn't much to see). I can even take my *black* (because black is what's so important about HoH, apparently) sunglasses, put them on, and still be able to see whatevever is in front of me just fine. I can do the same with the homemade filter (made out of multiple layers of exposed film.... also black) I've used to watch solar eclipse years ago... I won't see much, but bright enough light sources are still visible.

The funny thing is, your glasses' lesnses aren't black, they are dark tinted, which is exactly the difference between black and dark, dark is a hue, black is a color

[JackPhoenix]

The funny thing is, your glasses' lesnses aren't black, they are dark tinted, which is exactly the difference between black and dark, dark is a hue, black is a color

Did you see them? Obviously, no, because if you did, you would know that their color is, in fact, black.

[Rukelnikov]

Did you see them? Obviously, no, because if you did, you would know that their color is, in fact, black.

I don't need to, if you can see thru them, its because they are polarizing light, thus changing the amount of light hitting your retina, and thus changing hue at which you are perceiving colors, which... you know, its how shades work.

[MaxWilson]

Did you see them? Obviously, no, because if you did, you would know that their color is, in fact, black.

You're missing Rukelnikov's point, which is about the technical definition of "color".

https://www.differencebetween.com/di...-and-vs-color/

"Hue refers to a specific basic tone of color or the root color and, in a rough definition, can be considered as the main colors in the rainbow. It is not another name for color as colors are more explicitly defined adding with brightness and saturation."

Rukelnikov is saying that your sunglasses, while presumably black in hue, do not produce the necessary (lack of) brightness to be called the color black.

[Contrast]

Rukelnikov is saying that your sunglasses, while presumably black in hue, do not produce the necessary (lack of) brightness to be called the color black.

Surely something with a yellow hue is still yellow? If not, what colour is it

Edit - the argument is its not perfect black its just a really dark grey? It's worth saying by that logic no human has ever seen black yet we routinely call things black. /edit

Regardless, unfortunately not sure this aside really helps us. Black is the colour we see when something absorbs light (or in the absence of light). Except in this case there's nothing absorbing light (other than presumably magic) and creatures who can see without light (you would presume also by magic).

Both take us so far outside real world understandings of how you see that any real world analogy doesn't really work.

[MaxWilson]

Surely something with a yellow hue is still yellow? If not, what colour is it

Edit - the argument is its not perfect black its just a really dark grey? It's worth saying by that logic no human has ever seen black yet we routinely call things black. /edit

Regardless, unfortunately not sure this aside really helps us. Black is the colour we see when something absorbs light (or in the absence of light). Except in this case there's nothing absorbing light (other than presumably magic) and creatures who can see without light (you would presume also by magic).

Both take us so far outside real world understandings of how you see that any real world analogy doesn't really work.

Argument here is not over the color yellow. It is over whether, when Hunger of Hadar says "A 20-foot-radius sphere of blackness and bitter cold appears, centered on a point with range and lasting for the duration. This void is filled with a cacophony of soft whispers and slurping noises that can be heard up to 30 feet away. No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area, and creatures fully within the area are blinded," it is referring to "blackness" in a sense which includes "lack of brightness" among its traits, as per the color black, and whether that makes it opaque, including to darkvision.

Me, I think "sphere of blackness" is just another way of saying "no light... can illuminate the area," so arguments over hue vs. color add no extra value. The sunglasses thing is a tangent which in the end has no bearing on how Hunger of Hadar works.

[JackPhoenix]

You're missing Rukelnikov's point, which is about the technical definition of "color".

https://www.differencebetween.com/di...-and-vs-color/

"Hue refers to a specific basic tone of color or the root color and, in a rough definition, can be considered as the main colors in the rainbow. It is not another name for color as colors are more explicitly defined adding with brightness and saturation."

Rukelnikov is saying that your sunglasses, while presumably black in hue, do not produce the necessary (lack of) brightness to be called the color black.

Language differences, then, my language uses the same word for those concepts.

Still, as color is what humans perceive, he's got it the opposite way: I can perceive something as black in color even if the hue is actually blue or brown (as those are common hues that sunglasses also use). So the sunglasses are black in color, as I (and presumably everyone else) see them as black, even though their hue may not be black (well, to be entirely fair, I don't see them as black now, as they are covered in dust and scratches due to being decades old.... but that's besides the point. They were black enough once.).

Transparent black or gloss black or vantablack is still black in color.

Me, I think "sphere of blackness" is just another way of saying "no light... can illuminate the area," so arguments over hue vs. color add no extra value. The sunglasses thing is a tangent which in the end has no bearing on how Hunger of Hadar works.

The sunglasses thing was mostly a reaction to his claim that "Anything in your vision field blocks whats behind", which is patently false due to existence of transparent objects, and that black does not automatically mean opaque.

[MaxWilson]

Language differences, then, my language uses the same word for those concepts. *snip*

Well, maybe that, but also the fact that the colloquial definition of "color", even in English, predates the technical definition of "color".

I'm not saying you have to use the technical definition yourself, just that Rukelnikov's point was technical and general to all sunglasses, not specific to your particular sunglasses.

[JackPhoenix]

Well, maybe that, but also the fact that the colloquial definition of "color", even in English, predates the technical definition of "color".

I'm not saying you have to use the technical definition yourself, just that Rukelnikov's point was technical and general to all sunglasses, not specific to your particular sunglasses.

No, he's wrong. In fact, he contradicts himself by first saying the lenses aren't black, but then that black is a color.

The funny thing is, your glasses' lesnses aren't black, they are dark tinted, which is exactly the difference between black and dark, dark is a hue, black is a color

"Dark" is not hue. It refers to brightness. Black can be both color and hue. And the lenses, of course, can be dark tinted and black in either color or hue at the same time.

[sambojin]

Didn't realize my suggestion sparked an extra page or so of waffling. Can we agree that no light=darkness, which means that darkvision works but normal vision doesn't?
Blindsight and tremorsense should work fine as well.

And that HoH is a pretty cool spell, just nothing like SG. Kind of more like SStorm really. I think I mentioned that....
(you don't have to agree on this part, just the paragraph at the top)