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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    Project in sig is planned to interpolate MinMaxBoards' fanmade TOB errata more or less wholesale, but I also want an FAQ section for things that are just explicative.

    What questions should be included? Here are a few I can think of:


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    Can you advance your initiator level by 1.5 in a single character level by using prestige classes like Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion?

    Yes. A class that is not itself an initiating class — meaning it doesn't grant or have an entry for maneuvers or stances — but which advances your class features as if you had "also" gained a level in a martial adept class will advance your IL by 1.5 for each such level of advancement: one IL from the advancement in effective level in your previous initiator class, and another ˝ IL from the level in the non-initiating class itself.


    Does Bloodstorm Blade provide full initiator level advancement?

    No. Although its class abilities interact with maneuvers, Bloodstorm Blade isn’t an initiating class because it doesn’t grant maneuvers or stances.


    What are the specific terrain requirements to initiate Stone Dragon maneuvers?

    Stone Dragon maneuvers require that you be standing on a solid and steady surface to initiate them; you need not be in contact with actual planetary surface. “Ground” is being used colloquially here, and is contrasted with states such as swimming, hanging, being airborne, or being on a surface too unsteady to count as “ground” for you.

    Remember, Stone Dragon stances don’t end if you leave solid ground; they must simply be initiated there.


    Must the stance you learn when you take your first level in a martial adept class be a 1st level stance, even if your initiator level would let you take a higher level one?

    No. Eligibility to learn stances is determined just as for all maneuvers. If you don’t “begin play” in a class you may be eligible to learn a higher level stance when you enter it. The phrase “you begin play with a 1st level stance” is descriptive, not prescriptive, and was written with the goal of introducing a prospective player to a given class with the unspoken assumption that they would start in the class at 1st level.


    What am I missing? (Things like counting as your own ally are I think included in the MinMaxBoards errata.)

    Input on rulings naturally welcome too.
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-10-01 at 10:35 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    A few questions I've seen or had:

    Ye olde "are thou thine own Ally?" for White Raven Tactics.

    All of the hulabaloo around Iron Heart Surge.

    Does Castigating Strike's AoE effect also affect the target of the melee attack?

    Can a Crusader punch a tree until his HP is full with Martial Spirit?

    Does a Swordsage get extra skill point multiplier at first level?

    Can you know a maneuver multiple times under different initiator classes?

    If you are a multiclass initiator who enters a ToB PrC, can you assign the individual benefits to specific classes or only whole levels? (Eg take a level of Master of Nine and apply the maneuver readied to Crusader and the maneuver known to Warblade from the same level, or put the stance on Swordsage etc)
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    Answer 1 is partially wrong. Having an initiator level equal to your level in a martial adept class isn't actually a class feature of the martial adept classes. It's a general rule described in a different chapter from the classes that they all reference. Only the prestige classes have an explicit statement that you add their full class level to your initiator level.

    This means that uncanny trickster and legacy champion only give 1.5 IL per level when they're applied to martial adept prestige classes but -not- to the crusader, swordsage, or warblade.

    Isn't that a fun little disfunction?
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Answer 1 is partially wrong. Having an initiator level equal to your level in a martial adept class isn't actually a class feature of the martial adept classes. It's a general rule described in a different chapter from the classes that they all reference. Only the prestige classes have an explicit statement that you add their full class level to your initiator level.

    Isn't that a fun little disfunction?
    Will add this to the errata then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aegis013 View Post
    A few questions I've seen or had:
    Thanks. Addressing those not covered in MMB's errata:

    Can a Crusader punch a tree until his HP is full with Martial Spirit?
    It's not like it would be overpowered whatsoever, but probably should errata in one of those "only in real combat" clauses that appear elsewhere -- trying to seem semi-official here and this is more RAI/leads to less awkwardness.

    If you are a multiclass initiator who enters a ToB PrC, can you assign the individual benefits to specific classes or only whole levels? (Eg take a level of Master of Nine and apply the maneuver readied to Crusader and the maneuver known to Warblade from the same level, or put the stance on Swordsage etc)
    Good one. IMO, yes. Do you agree?

    Source is TOB p96:

    "When you gain additional maneuvers known, these simply add to...one martial adept standard class you already possess."

    "If you have more than one martial maneuver progression, you must choose which progression the additional readied maneuver applies to."

    Both stating a choice in that individual case.


    Can you know a maneuver multiple times under different initiator classes?
    Very good one. I guess the possible rulings are:

    1) Just as if you were a wizard/sorcerer, the maneuver is learned and prepared separately for each class.

    2) Maneuvers are either known or not, regardless of what class you learned them from, and you can use the readied slots from a certain class to ready any maneuvers you know that are from a discipline the class has access to.

    And under ruling 2, there's the additional question of whether you can ready the same maneuver multiple times under different classes.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-10-01 at 11:08 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Good one, clear no IMO. Do you agree?
    Honestly, I don't see how it particularly matters. Your absolute number of maneuvers known and readied doesn't really change if you divide them between multiple martial adept classes.

    The only potential abuse is the idiot crusader trick and you don't -need- to divide them to make that work.

    Very good one. I guess the possible rulings are:

    1) Just as if you were a wizard/sorcerer, the maneuver is learned and prepared separately for each class.

    2) Maneuvers are either known or not, regardless of what class you learned them from, and you can use the readied slots from a certain class to ready any maneuvers you know that are from a discipline the class has access to.

    And under ruling 2, there's the additional question of whether you can ready the same maneuver multiple times under different classes.

    Thoughts?
    FWIW, the second is the official answer to this question from WotC. It was asked and answered in a sage article. I tend to agree with it since the first largely flies in the face of the explicit rules for martial adepts that are not multiclass adepts. If you can ready it more than once through multiclassing, why can't you simply ready it more than once as a single-class character?
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2019-10-01 at 11:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
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  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Honestly, I don't see how it particularly matters. Your absolute number of maneuvers known and readied doesn't really change if you divide them between multiple martial adept classes.
    Note that I changed my opinion on this after checking the book (see edit above).

    That sage answer is also what seems intuitive to me.
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    A big question I see is as follows:
    The initiators are allowed at several levels to replace maneuvers known. If you trade a maneuver that was used to qualify for another, what happens? A sub-question of this is if maneuvers can qualify for themselves after selection.

    For example. A warblade knows wolf fang strike and sudden leap. Then he wants to trade wolf fang strike for charging minotaur. At this point, does sudden leap provide the 1 tiger claw maneuver needed to prop itself up? If not, what happens?
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  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    A big question I see is as follows:
    The initiators are allowed at several levels to replace maneuvers known. If you trade a maneuver that was used to qualify for another, what happens? A sub-question of this is if maneuvers can qualify for themselves after selection.

    For example. A warblade knows wolf fang strike and sudden leap. Then he wants to trade wolf fang strike for charging minotaur. At this point, does sudden leap provide the 1 tiger claw maneuver needed to prop itself up? If not, what happens?
    Personally I'd say as long as you met the prerequisites when you first learned the maneuver, you're fine. Maneuvers are more like spells than feats, but I think the prerequisites are there to keep you from cherry-picking things like the high-level Mountain Hammers with no other investment. If you made the investment to learn the maneuver, then change out one of the lower level ones, I see no reason to take away the others, otherwise you're saddling an initiator with unnecessary baggage, and martial have it hard enough in 3.5.

    On the other hand, I would also make it clear that the maneuvers granted by the various school-specific items cannot be used to qualify for others, since they are inherently temporary.
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    Bo9S p44: "You must meet a certain set of requirements to be able to choose that maneuver as one you know". The prerequisite is to "learn" the new maneuver. "Some [...] maneuvers require you to learn one or more other maneuvers [...] before they can be selected."

    My emphasis. Seems clear that prereqs are only to learn maneuvers not to use them. This actually goes against my preferred reading, but it seems to be RAW.



    --------------------

    An errata question. This clause below seems unnecessary and restrictive to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo9S p40
    Stacking Effects: Maneuvers or stances that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws and other attributes do not stack with each other unless specifically noted within their descriptions.
    Would any problems come about by removing this text? (Or alternately, specifying that maneuvers stack with other maneuvers but not with themselves.) Thoughts on this?
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-10-02 at 02:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    My first thought would be it might allow a swordsage with dual boost to activate dancing mongoose and raging mongoose for an absurd number of attacks.

    But yeah that seems far more restrictive than necessary, since it means any of the damaging stances become unusuable with most strikes.
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    My first thought would be it might allow a swordsage with dual boost to activate dancing mongoose and raging mongoose for an absurd number of attacks.

    But yeah that seems far more restrictive than necessary, since it means any of the damaging stances become unusuable with most strikes.
    I think it sort of falls under the 'untyped bonuses from the same source don't stack' rule, with the source in this case being a 'Boost'. So you couldn't dual boost as above to do absurd amounts of attacks, but you could combine Raging Mongoose and a Desert Wind maneuver to add fire damage, since those are different bonus types.
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Viscount View Post
    My first thought would be it might allow a swordsage with dual boost to activate dancing mongoose and raging mongoose for an absurd number of attacks.
    That's legal anyway, no? Since it doesn't involve a penalty or bonus to a check or roll, which is what that clause calls out.
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    Default Re: Tome of Battle frequently asked questions?

    Fair enough, they were sufficiently explicit in their language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
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