The power of magical attacks

[Keravath]

Once we're getting into Tier 3 I think the likelihood of having a magic weapon for each of the martial characters becomes quite high.

It's Tier 2 that I think they shouldn't be assumed. The chart of pg 277 reflects this.

Of course, it's entirely possible that the entire party could get outfitted by level 5, I just don't think that's very common in a standard game.

Folks should read the DMG. The table on 277 is part of text intended for a DM to balance encounters and it specifically states it is applied ONLY when "not all the characters in the party possess the means to counteract that resistance or immunity". If your party has magical weapons that overcome the resistance/immunity then the chart isn't used and means nothing. ALL the table is saying, is that IF your party does not have magical weapons then by tier 4, it won't make much if any difference in terms of monster hit points since the party will have more methods to remove hit points.

The entire premise of this thread is incorrect.

[stoutstien]

Someone should go through all the published adventures and figure out if the challenge for each encounter is factoring in magical weapons at any given point. All mine are perpetually loaned out.


I don't run AL on any regular basis but a few local DM who do voice concern on how guaranteed magical items have shifted the balance to a point where deadly ++ encounter are the only ones that impact the party but are still hold the issue of swingy results based on dice results the higher the lethality of any given one is.

[Slipperychicken]

WotC disagrees with you.

By the level 5-10 tier of play they expect at least half of damage-dealers to have magic weapons from random drops. That is reflected in the table

Most published adventures give magic weapons around that time too

Of course, it's entirely possible that the entire party could get outfitted by level 5, I just don't think that's very common in a standard game.

It is quite common for PCs to have magic weapons around that time

[Zalabim]

All the magic mart addicts are forgetting that fighters can get silver weapons, quite affordably starting in tier 2, and unarmed attacks and natural weapon attacks really don't have that same option. There's also consumable items and temporary spells that can fill in for infrequent needs, that again aren't options for natural or unarmed attacks. There's a sidebar in Xanathar's that explains the magic weapon situation quite clearly as well:

Spoiler: Behind the curtain

Show

ARE MAGIC ITEMS NECESSARY IN A CAMPAIGN?
The D&D game is built on the assumption that magic
items appear sporadically and that they are always a boon,
unless an item bears a curse. Characters and monsters are
built to face each other without the help of magic items,
which means that having a magic item always makes a
character more powerful or versatile than a generic char-
acter of the same level. As DM, you never have to worry
about awarding magic items just so the characters can
keep up with the campaign's threats. Magic items are truly
prizes. Are they useful? Absolutely. Are they necessary? No.

Magic items can go from nice to necessary in the rare
group that has no spellcasters, no monk, and no NPCs
capable of casting magic weapon. Having no magic makes
it extremely difficult for a party to overcome monsters that
have resistances or immunity to nonmagical damage. In
such a game, you'll want to be generous with magic weap-
ons or else avoid using such monsters.

If you have the rare party that otherwise has no access to magical attacks, and you still want to use monsters with resistance or immunity to nonmagical damage as regular challenges, then you'll need to be generous with magic weapons. You see pre-made adventures with a lot of magic weapons because they're converting legacy adventures and frequently planning the adventure for the worst party imaginable.

The reason tier 2 party's are expected to only be halfway affected by resistance to nonmagical attacks probably stems from the idea that half an average party is magical in some way already.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I've seen a trend of people brushing off abilities which make mundane attacks magical.

One of the handiest things for this kind of ability is if you're playing a standard adventure path and your player wants to use a rare treasure type weapon (ie Polearm Master, it's usually Polearm Master). That's when things like Greater Pact Weapon shine.

[Dark.Revenant]

Based on the DMG treasure tables, if a group sticks to the guidelines specified and rolls exactly once in each hoard, going down the line for each tier of play, they’ll end up with the following averages:

End of Tier 1: 5.88 rolls on Table A, 2.625 rolls on Table B, 1.75 rolls on Table C, 2.1 rolls on Table F, and 0.21 rolls on Table G. From these rolls, the party will recover 0.5796 magic weapons of some sort.

End of Tier 2: 10.08 rolls on Table A, 8.55 rolls on Table B, 4.95 rolls on Table C, 1.08 rolls on Table D, 6.3 rolls on Table F, 1.8 rolls on Table G, and 0.36 rolls on Table H. From these rolls, the party will recover 2.133 magic weapons of some sort, bringing the total to 2.7126.

End of Tier 3: 4.2 rolls on Table A, 5.88 rolls on Table B, 8.82 rolls on Table C, 4.8 rolls on Table D, 0.96 rolls on Table E, 0.96 rolls on Table F, 2.4 rolls on Table G, 3 rolls on Table H, and 0.96 rolls on Table I. From these rolls, the party will recover 1.8732 magic weapons of some sort, bringing the total to 4.5858.

End of Tier 4: 4.32 rolls on Table C, 8.96 rolls on Table D, 6.16 rolls on Table E, 0.8 rolls on Table G, 1.6 rolls on Table H, and 4 rolls on Table I. From these rolls, the party will recover 1.688 magic weapons of some sort, bringing the total to 6.2738.

[Keravath]

Based on the DMG treasure tables, if a group sticks to the guidelines specified and rolls exactly once in each hoard, going down the line for each tier of play, they’ll end up with the following averages:

End of Tier 1: 5.88 rolls on Table A, 2.625 rolls on Table B, 1.75 rolls on Table C, 2.1 rolls on Table F, and 0.21 rolls on Table G. From these rolls, the party will recover 0.5796 magic weapons of some sort.

End of Tier 2: 10.08 rolls on Table A, 8.55 rolls on Table B, 4.95 rolls on Table C, 1.08 rolls on Table D, 6.3 rolls on Table F, 1.8 rolls on Table G, and 0.36 rolls on Table H. From these rolls, the party will recover 2.133 magic weapons of some sort, bringing the total to 2.7126.

End of Tier 3: 4.2 rolls on Table A, 5.88 rolls on Table B, 8.82 rolls on Table C, 4.8 rolls on Table D, 0.96 rolls on Table E, 0.96 rolls on Table F, 2.4 rolls on Table G, 3 rolls on Table H, and 0.96 rolls on Table I. From these rolls, the party will recover 1.8732 magic weapons of some sort, bringing the total to 4.5858.

End of Tier 4: 4.32 rolls on Table C, 8.96 rolls on Table D, 6.16 rolls on Table E, 0.8 rolls on Table G, 1.6 rolls on Table H, and 4 rolls on Table I. From these rolls, the party will recover 1.688 magic weapons of some sort, bringing the total to 6.2738.

Just for reference the number of rolls on each table expected is in the DMG p133

"You can hand out as much or as little treasure as you want. Over the course of a typical campaign, a party finds treasure hoards amounting to seven rolls on the Challenge 0- 4 table, eighteen rolls on the Challenge 5- 10 table, twelve rolls on the Challenge 11- 16 table, and eight rolls on the Challenge 17+ table."

I wasn't sure if that was included in your calculations above.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just for reference the number of rolls on each table expected is in the DMG p133

"You can hand out as much or as little treasure as you want. Over the course of a typical campaign, a party finds treasure hoards amounting to seven rolls on the Challenge 0- 4 table, eighteen rolls on the Challenge 5- 10 table, twelve rolls on the Challenge 11- 16 table, and eight rolls on the Challenge 17+ table."

I wasn't sure if that was included in your calculations above.

FWIW, in Xanathar's, they allude to a four PC party being able to expect 100 drops over the course of levels 1-20, but that includes consumables.

[MagneticKitty]

"Even when people bring up that 5e monster balance is designed without magic items assumed, people still say that this cannot be the case because many monsters have resistance."

I think it's more immunity I look at and say, and the game is designed for magic weapons to be the norm.
I really think it (non magical resistance and immunity) should be gotten rid of .

Vulnerability is more fun and interesting.

What's more fun,
1. Doing less damage because you're unlucky enough for your dm to not provide magic items
2. Or cutting through more hp and experimenting with different types of damage trying to find what's more effective?

Effectively the same effective hp as before this change if they can find the weakness.

Anyway, you'll notice the classes that get magic attacks innately are ones expected to not use weapons all the time, a monk and moon druid in wildshape. I rest my case.

[Dark.Revenant]

Just for reference the number of rolls on each table expected is in the DMG p133

"You can hand out as much or as little treasure as you want. Over the course of a typical campaign, a party finds treasure hoards amounting to seven rolls on the Challenge 0- 4 table, eighteen rolls on the Challenge 5- 10 table, twelve rolls on the Challenge 11- 16 table, and eight rolls on the Challenge 17+ table."

I wasn't sure if that was included in your calculations above.

That’s the guideline I used, yes. It adds up to a little over 100 rolls on the magic item tables, FWIW. Note that for my weapon tally, I include all magic items that are explicitly wieldable as weapons, which for example includes some staves.

An important takeaway here is that the party is rather likely to get a wide variety of magic weapons rather than a full suite of +1s. You might get a +1 Pike and then a Flame Tongue, a Staff of Power, and then a Holy Avenger.

Monk, Moon Druid, and post-errata Beastmaster gain magic attacks because it’s otherwise impossible for them to do so. They gain them at a level where other party members are likely able to use spells or other class features to have magic attacks. For instance, even a half caster can cast Magic Weapon at level 5. Monk has no such option. Even if it were possible for a Monk to find an item that made their fists magical, the class would still include magic attacks as part of the kit because their efficacy would otherwise be left to the mercy of the GM, rather than buffs (teamwork between players).

[ad_hoc]

Based on the DMG treasure tables, if a group sticks to the guidelines specified and rolls exactly once in each hoard, going down the line for each tier of play, they’ll end up with the following averages:

End of Tier 1: 5.88 rolls on Table A, 2.625 rolls on Table B, 1.75 rolls on Table C, 2.1 rolls on Table F, and 0.21 rolls on Table G. From these rolls, the party will recover 0.5796 magic weapons of some sort.

End of Tier 2: 10.08 rolls on Table A, 8.55 rolls on Table B, 4.95 rolls on Table C, 1.08 rolls on Table D, 6.3 rolls on Table F, 1.8 rolls on Table G, and 0.36 rolls on Table H. From these rolls, the party will recover 2.133 magic weapons of some sort, bringing the total to 2.7126.

End of Tier 3: 4.2 rolls on Table A, 5.88 rolls on Table B, 8.82 rolls on Table C, 4.8 rolls on Table D, 0.96 rolls on Table E, 0.96 rolls on Table F, 2.4 rolls on Table G, 3 rolls on Table H, and 0.96 rolls on Table I. From these rolls, the party will recover 1.8732 magic weapons of some sort, bringing the total to 4.5858.

End of Tier 4: 4.32 rolls on Table C, 8.96 rolls on Table D, 6.16 rolls on Table E, 0.8 rolls on Table G, 1.6 rolls on Table H, and 4 rolls on Table I. From these rolls, the party will recover 1.688 magic weapons of some sort, bringing the total to 6.2738.

Those are good stats although I disagree with how many weapons we're recovering.

Well, I disagree about what is relevant here. 'Weapons of some sort' probably includes both ammunition (which I would count as a consumable. There are some like bead of force and potion of fire breathing that allow you to attack. Only getting 1 piece of ammunition isn't great) and Rod of the Pact Keeper.

I did the stats for Tier 1 and Tier 2 and I came up with around 2.2 weapons not 2.7.

By my accounting that's 2.2 weapons on average by level 11. What I'd really like to know is the chance to not find any weapons or only 1 weapon by 11. But I'm not a stats person. I do think, because of how the treasure hoards work, there is going to be a wide variation.

18 rolls on the table only comes up with hitting Table F 2.5 times. There is a decent chance that a party might land on it 0-1 times. Not hitting it at all ends up giving a good chance of not finding a weapon. Only getting Table F once cuts down on the odds of getting a magic weapon considerably.

So some parties will find 4+ weapons by level 11, just as others will find 0-1.

Monk, Moon Druid, and post-errata Beastmaster gain magic attacks because it’s otherwise impossible for them to do so. They gain them at a level where other party members are likely able to use spells or other class features to have magic attacks. For instance, even a half caster can cast Magic Weapon at level 5. Monk has no such option. Even if it were possible for a Monk to find an item that made their fists magical, the class would still include magic attacks as part of the kit because their efficacy would otherwise be left to the mercy of the GM, rather than buffs (teamwork between players).

Don't forget about others too like the Oath of Devotion Paladin and Horizon Walker Ranger.

Regardless of the reason for the abilities they are still good abilities.

1. They guarantee magic weapon attack damage early in Tier 2.
2. They don't tax the party's resources. The Fighter can be given the first magic weapon and now everyone has magic weapon damage because of the ability.


The entire point of this thread is that these should be counted as good abilities to have, not as ribbons or non-abilities as many do.

[Zalabim]

Anyway, you'll notice the classes that get magic attacks innately are ones expected to not use weapons all the time, a monk and moon druid in wildshape. I rest my case.

Then the opposition would like to enter the following items into evidence:
Silver weapons.
Paladin, Oath of Devotion, Sacred Weapon.
Warlock, Pact Boon, Pact of the Blade.
Cleric, War Domain; Wizard; Paladin: 2nd level spell, Magic Weapon.
Druid, cantrip, Shillelagh
Torch

Clearly there's no correlation between a class's ability to cast spells and option to provide magical attacks. It appears to me that classes that don't use weapons can get innately magical attacks because of the variety of mundane and class-based alternatives to permanent magical weapons that are only available as or to weapons.

[Dark.Revenant]

I did the stats for Tier 1 and Tier 2 and I came up with around 2.2 weapons not 2.7.

Don't forget about others too like the Oath of Devotion Paladin and Horizon Walker Ranger.

Regardless of the reason for the abilities they are still good abilities.

I figure came up with a 25% chance for Table F to result in a magic weapon (I’m including Adder, but that’s debatable). Note that the weapon doesn’t need +1 to bypass damage resistance. The other tables are similar. I’m not including consumables, by the way.

Here is my best go at a list of features and spells that make existing physical attacks into magical physical attacks. Not included are the myriad effects that create non-physical damage types. Bold for targetable buffs.
Druid/Nature Cleric 1: Shillelagh
Druid/Artificer/Warlock/Nature Cleric 1: Magic Stone
Magic Initiate: Shillelagh, Magic Stone, Arcane Weapon
Artificer 1: Arcane Weapon
Forge Cleric 1: Blessing of the Forge
Artificer 2: Enhanced Weapon
Arcana Cleric/Forge Cleric/War Cleric/Wizard 3: Magic Weapon
Devotion Paladin 3: Sacred Weapon
Blade Warlock 3: Pact of the Blade
Artificer/Paladin 5: Magic Weapon
Hexblade Warlock/Forge Cleric 5: Elemental Weapon
Monk 6: Ki-Empowered Strikes
Kensei Monk 6: One with the Blade
Lore Bard 6: Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon
Shepherd Druid 6: Mighty Summoner
Moon Druid 6: Primal Strike
Beast Master Ranger 7: Exceptional Training
Arcane Archer Fighter 7: Magic Arrow
Eldritch Knight Fighter/Arcane Trickster Rogue 7/8: Magic Weapon
Cleric/Divine Soul Sorcerer 9: Holy Weapon
Bard 10: Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Holy Weapon

[stoutstien]

I figure came up with a 25% chance for Table F to result in a magic weapon (I’m including Adder, but that’s debatable). Note that the weapon doesn’t need +1 to bypass damage resistance. The other tables are similar. I’m not including consumables, by the way.

Here is my best go at a list of features and spells that make existing physical attacks into magical physical attacks. Not included are the myriad effects that create non-physical damage types. Bold for targetable buffs.
Druid/Nature Cleric 1: Shillelagh
Druid/Artificer/Warlock/Nature Cleric 1: Magic Stone
Magic Initiate: Shillelagh, Magic Stone
Forge Cleric 1: Blessing of the Forge
Artificer 2: Enhanced Weapon
Arcana Cleric/Forge Cleric/War Cleric/Wizard 3: Magic Weapon
Devotion Paladin 3: Sacred Weapon
Blade Warlock 3: Pact of the Blade
Artificer/Paladin 5: Magic Weapon
Hexblade Warlock/Forge Cleric 5: Elemental Weapon
Monk 6: Ki-Empowered Strikes
Kensei Monk 6: One with the Blade
Lore Bard 6: Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon
Shepherd Druid 6: Mighty Summoner
Moon Druid 6: Primal Strike
Beast Master Ranger 7: Exceptional Training
Arcane Archer Fighter 7: Magic Arrow
Eldritch Knight Fighter/Arcane Trickster Rogue 7/8: Magic Weapon
Cleric/Divine Soul Sorcerer 9: Holy Weapon
Bard 10: Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, Holy Weapon

You missed arcane weapon spell on the artificers list. Nice to see all the effects on one place.

[Zalabim]

The Warlock's pact weapon can't be targeted, but it takes a minute to disappear if given/taken away.

[ad_hoc]

Here is my best go at a list of features and spells that make existing physical attacks into magical physical attacks. Not included are the myriad effects that create non-physical damage types.

I think those should be included.

Abilities which turn mundane damage into magical damage is important I think not that it is magical bludgeoning/slashing/piercing.

Horizon Walker is hurt by requiring a Bonus Action every turn to have their +1d8 but a big buff is turning their damage into Force.

[Dark.Revenant]

I don’t think it should be included. Magical physical damage is arguably the best damage type in the game, and many many sources all offer non-physical damage. The list would be unwieldy if I tried to list them all.

Besides, the whole purpose of this thread is to discuss the necessity for magic weapons to be distributed to the party. The abilities I listed all offer the exact same benefit as a magic weapon insofar that damage resistance is concerned. The list is already large enough to illustrate the point that most parties will be able to eventually overcome damage resistance even in the absence of magic weapons.

[ad_hoc]

I don’t think it should be included. Magical physical damage is arguably the best damage type in the game, and many many sources all offer non-physical damage. The list would be unwieldy if I tried to list them all.

Besides, the whole purpose of this thread is to discuss the necessity for magic weapons to be distributed to the party. The abilities I listed all offer the exact same benefit as a magic weapon insofar that damage resistance is concerned. The list is already large enough to illustrate the point that most parties will be able to eventually overcome damage resistance even in the absence of magic weapons.

I don't understand why you think Horizon Walker shouldn't be included here.

It's the best thing about them.