Minrah's level

[Quartz]

Massive damage is an optional rule.

Not in the SRD it isn't. There are, however, variants of the Massivve Damage rule which are optional.

[D.One]

Other evidences:

Until now, she seems to have the feats Knock-Down and its pre-requisites Improved Trip and Combat Expertise. For three feats, and with at least FTR 1+ and CLR 4+, her minimum total level is... 5+.

No big conclusion yet...

On a side note, for what we've seem until now, she has a good or very good STR, a good INT and a good WIS. I expect her to have an at least moderate to good CON (being a dwarf and all), and I think she may have a moderate to good CHA, even being a dwarf, which would put her on Roy's small club of characters with mostly good stats.

[CriticalFailure]

What leads you to believe she has good int or cha?

[Schroeswald]

What leads you to believe she has good int or cha?

For intelligence I think it’s a prerequisite for one of those possible feats for her to have (though Minrah doesn’t exactly strike me as high intelligence), and she needs at least six charisma to ghostify (and I’d take a guess that she has pretty decent charisma).

[KorvinStarmast]

For intelligence I think it’s a prerequisite for one of those possible feats for her to have (though Minrah doesn’t exactly strike me as high intelligence), and she needs at least six charisma to ghostify (and I’d take a guess that she has pretty decent charisma).

She could have a 10 INT and a 10 Cha, could she not, or does she need a 12+ Int for the feat?

Minrah: 5 Cleric 5-5 Fighter ... while a touch low for the order, she can make a contribution.

[D.One]

She could have a 10 INT and a 10 Cha, could she not, or does she need a 12+ Int for the feat?

Minrah: 5 Cleric 5-5 Fighter ... while a touch low for the order, she can make a contribution.

Combat Expertise requires INT 13+.

Charisma is just a baseless impression, nothing more, but hers must be at least 6 due to the haunting (aka becoming a ghost) thing.

[HorizonWalker]

Combat Expertise requires INT 13+.

Charisma is just a baseless impression, nothing more, but hers must be at least 6 due to the haunting (aka becoming a ghost) thing.

Wait, how did Minrah's ghost get involved in this? I don't remember seeing a ghost from her.

[Schroeswald]

Wait, how did Minrah's ghost get involved in this? I don't remember seeing a ghost from her.

When she decided to come back to life she told Durkon if she wasn’t raised she would haunt him.

[Aeson]

When she decided to come back to life she told Durkon if she wasn’t raised she would haunt him.

Making a threat is not in and of itself evidence that you can carry through on it.

Mind you, the only objection I have to calling Minrah's Charisma 6+ is that Minrah doesn't seem to me like a character who has abnormally-low Charisma and so 6 seems low for a minimum.

[Schroeswald]

Making a threat is not in and of itself evidence that you can carry through on it.

Mind you, the only objection I have to calling Minrah's Charisma 6+ is that Minrah doesn't seem to me like a character who has abnormally-low Charisma and so 6 seems low for a minimum.

It’s enough for the C&LG thread (which is why it’s 6+, cause we assume they tell the truth unless otherwise shown not to), and I don’t think anyone thinks her charisma is six but that’s the minimum we have any evidence for.

[D.One]

Making a threat is not in and of itself evidence that you can carry through on it.

Mind you, the only objection I have to calling Minrah's Charisma 6+ is that Minrah doesn't seem to me like a character who has abnormally-low Charisma and so 6 seems low for a minimum.

I also think she has more than 6 in CHA, but 6 is the minimum we can verify, since we consider that, when she says she'll haunt Durkon, she expects to be able to do that, and thus, knows she has the required stats.

[Dr.Zero]

I've got the overall impression that she is very low level, since her first appearance, where she and her friends tried to bluff about the spells they could use and the comments of the Order, where everyone (starting from Belkar to Haley) stated that she was low level; to her first fight, where her only hit didn't surpass the spawn damage reduction (btw, she was dominated as well, in that fight, which makes her comment about "cleric who fails will save" -or whatever it was- kinda hypocrite); to the main fight, where she didn't manage to keep her concentration to heal V and apparently couldn't harm Belkar not even in the slightest (not for lack of trying, because I remember she swinging her hammer at him), a Belkar who, apparently, wasn't even retaliating the attacks, but only stopping her from getting near to V.

Whatever her level is, it appears that she cannot make a difference, power-wise. Of course, she can make a difference in a lot of other ways, since even Blackwing almost managed to fool Xykon.

[hamishspence]

(btw, she was dominated as well, in that fight, which makes her comment about "cleric who fails will save" -or whatever it was- kinda hypocrite).

"Miss Cleric Who Can't Resist Domination Magic"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1162.html

Clerics have Good Will saves. Fighters have Poor Will Saves:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm

The point being that Hilgya has a Good Will save, and still failed her save against Domination.

And Minrah emphasises that she's a great fighter, not a great cleric:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1180.html

So taking a shot at Hilgya, isn't necessarily hypocritical - Hilgya was more likely to pass the save than Minrah was.

Plus - when I check, Minrah was never dominated - she passed her save, like Roy and V:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html

then got blinded:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1127.html

then got killed:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html

[Dr.Zero]

The point being that Hilgya has a Good Will save, and still failed her save against Domination.

Ah, I see. More "Miss high level cleric", then, but it makes more sense in that way.

Plus - when I check, Minrah was never dominated - she passed her save, like Roy and V:

She was in her first fight, I clearly remember that. OTOH my memory sometimes is lacking. I'm going to try to find it.

Edit: found! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1103.html, it was easier than I thought, luckily. Even, to be fair, now I'm not 100% sure that she was already dominated (and snapped out by Roy) or that was an "intermediate phase" to visually show the domination attempt to the readers.

[hamishspence]

She was almost dominated:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1103.html

but Roy's interruption followed by "Close your eyes" stopped it from taking hold.

[Dr.Zero]

She was almost dominated:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1103.html

but Roy's interruption followed by "Close your eyes" stopped it from taking hold.

Ah, Ninja'ed. by a couple of seconds!

[AdAstra]

I think her statements on being a solid fighter and an amateur cleric would point to at least one of two possibilities.

-She has/had more fighter levels than cleric levels

-Her wisdom is substantially lower than her strength

Both of those things could be true, but if neither were true her statement is definitely not accurate, so it’s probably safe to assume at least one is

[Schroeswald]

I’d say we can also see her statement as meaning her fighter and cleric levels are similar, but while being a fighter is completely useless for spell casting being a cleric advances BAB (albeit at a slower rate) and you can still be a decent weapon fighter as a single class cleric (see Durkon), so a multi class 4/4 fighter/cleric would be a better fighter than they are a cleric.

[AdAstra]

True, I guess it’s partially down to whether she means fighter the role or Fighter the class. That and the fact that her clerical training is treated as very much on the side and something fairly new. If the leveling scale in-universe starts out fast and generally slows down as you get more experienced, then it makes very little sense for her more recent cleric levels to be equal or greater than her fighter levels, especially since she was just resurrected and most likely lost a cleric level.

[Dr.Zero]

Anyway, domination notwithstanding, my previous points remain: she can be good to swing a hammer, but the only times we did see her doing so was 1) vs a spawn, and didn't manage to surpass the damage reduction (first fight); 2) against some after spawns, and indeed she did manage to surpass damage reduction; 3) against Belkar, and she didn't manage to accomplish anything.
The last point is paricularly interesting because we see her swinging her hammer to Belkar, in his face, with him being completely unfazed (a complete miss? I don't think Belkar has any sort of magical damage reduction item), while we never see him counterattacking, but only hitting her while she tries to reach for V.
While when Roy goes on B, he hits him hard.
Granted she could have rolled a couple of natural 1s on hitting, but, very bad luck aside, she doesn't look impressive at all.

[Crusher]

How many attacks/round have we seen her make? 2 or just 1? I can’t recall. That should tell us her BaB range.

[Schroeswald]

How many attacks/round have we seen her make? 2 or just 1? I can’t recall. That should tell us her BaB range.

Possibly two, but people can not take actions and it might have been 1.

[Ephemera]

At this point we’re pretty much just rehashing conclusions from the geekery thread. That thread has particular assumptions we make and you could make different ones in an effort to conclude what’s most likely (as opposed to provable by the somewhat arbitrary rules we follow in geekery), but all of the evidence was pretty thoroughly hashed over, so probably best to just continue there if anyone has anything real to add.

[KorvinStarmast]

Plus - when I check, Minrah was never dominated - she passed her save, like Roy and V:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html
then got blinded:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1127.html
then got killed:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html

All in all, a successful day as a side kick. (We recently had a sidekick. Now we have a little marker on the wall of an old tower where the side kick was splattered all over the stone thanks to two crits on a multi attack by a monster ...)

Edit: found! http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1103.html, it was easier than I thought, luckily. Even, to be fair, now I'm not 100% sure that she was already dominated (and snapped out by Roy) or that was an "intermediate phase" to visually show the domination attempt to the readers.

Same thing as Roy "almost being dominated" while fighting Durkula.

At this point we’re pretty much just rehashing conclusions from the geekery thread. That thread has particular assumptions we make and you could make different ones in an effort to conclude what’s most likely (as opposed to provable by the somewhat arbitrary rules we follow in geekery), but all of the evidence was pretty thoroughly hashed over, so probably best to just continue there if anyone has anything real to add.

Yeah, that thread has the indepth look.

[Dion]

Has anyone said “she’s exactly the level that she needs to be to contribute to the story” yet? Because I’m happy to say that.

But my question is “how old is Minrah?”

So far, she seems to be the dwarven equivalent of an adolescent or a very young adult. Other than hints from her juvenile behavior, do we have any information about her age?

[HorizonWalker]

Has anyone said “she’s exactly the level that she needs to be to contribute to the story” yet? Because I’m happy to say that.

But my question is “how old is Minrah?”

So far, she seems to be the dwarven equivalent of an adolescent or a very young adult. Other than hints from her juvenile behavior, do we have any information about her age?

She's Durkon and Hilgya's second child who traveled back in time to help save the world.

The reason her clan name is Shaleshoe instead of Thundershield or Firehelm is because she was adopted.

[Peelee]

Has anyone said “she’s exactly the level that she needs to be to contribute to the story” yet? Because I’m happy to say that.

But my question is “how old is Minrah?”

So far, she seems to be the dwarven equivalent of an adolescent or a very young adult. Other than hints from her juvenile behavior, do we have any information about her age?

She’s exactly the age that she needs to be to contribute to the story.

[Dr.Zero]

She’s exactly the age that she needs to be to contribute to the story.

And if sometimes it appears differently, a wizard did it!

[Schroeswald]

And if sometimes it appears differently, a wizard did it!

That’s ridiculous! A cleric must have done it, V would never do that unless it was really funny.

[D.One]

Has anyone said “she’s exactly the level that she needs to be to contribute to the story” yet? Because I’m happy to say that.

But my question is “how old is Minrah?”

So far, she seems to be the dwarven equivalent of an adolescent or a very young adult. Other than hints from her juvenile behavior, do we have any information about her age?

I have a better question. Why is Minrah?