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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Feb 2019

    Default adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Hello again, All

    Running a mixed bag of players through my augmented versions of lost mines and dragon of Ice Spire. Planting seeds and adding in some of the follow up sequel trilogy as well.

    The players have varying degrees of experience. From nothing to 3rd edition veterans. Nobody has played the modules so that’s a blessing.

    I have DM’d a 3 session one shot. Have been building my own pocket dimension campaign. Played half of Strahd. Currently lvl 7 on a moonshae islands campaign. And of course have watched everything critical role has done.

    On to the issue.

    I have 2 players that are all about social manipulation games and solving mysteries. Another is very RP and socially oriented. And then a dungeon crawler and a hack n’ slasher. But they all love a good puzzle.

    The first two are my issue. I’ve got plenty of the other stuff(could still use some puzzles) but the espionage and intrigue are lacking in the modules. I was thinking of utilizing the doppelgängers for something.

    I have Venomfang pulling strings on the Spider, and the Necromancer is the same one from the sequel trilogy.

    Any and all suggestions are welcome.

    Thanks!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2019

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Try and remember that it’s the characters who solve puzzles, not the players.

    Just like it’s not the players swinging swords or throwing fire.

    If you aren’t ok with someone wanting to solve a puzzle by rolling dice, don’t include puzzles.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Jun 2017

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Quote Originally Posted by TodChuncker View Post
    Hello again, All

    Running a mixed bag of players through my augmented versions of lost mines and dragon of Ice Spire. Planting seeds and adding in some of the follow up sequel trilogy as well.

    The players have varying degrees of experience. From nothing to 3rd edition veterans. Nobody has played the modules so that’s a blessing.

    I have DM’d a 3 session one shot. Have been building my own pocket dimension campaign. Played half of Strahd. Currently lvl 7 on a moonshae islands campaign. And of course have watched everything critical role has done.

    On to the issue.

    I have 2 players that are all about social manipulation games and solving mysteries. Another is very RP and socially oriented. And then a dungeon crawler and a hack n’ slasher. But they all love a good puzzle.

    The first two are my issue. I’ve got plenty of the other stuff(could still use some puzzles) but the espionage and intrigue are lacking in the modules. I was thinking of utilizing the doppelgängers for something.

    I have Venomfang pulling strings on the Spider, and the Necromancer is the same one from the sequel trilogy.

    Any and all suggestions are welcome.

    Thanks!
    Doppelgangers are always great for espionage... I've also used Imps because they can be invisible and they may try to "tempt" the characters. Also, harmless animals are fun to have spy on characters... For puzzles, there are plenty of ideas you can pilfer from here: Over 50 D&D Puzzles on YouTube.

    Hope this helps!
    I have a YouTube channel with D&D Puzzles, DM Tips and Quests ideas. Great for D&D or Pathfinder. :)

    Wally DM on YouTube

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Jun 2017

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    Try and remember that it’s the characters who solve puzzles, not the players.

    Just like it’s not the players swinging swords or throwing fire.

    If you aren’t ok with someone wanting to solve a puzzle by rolling dice, don’t include puzzles.
    Actually, in my game it is the PLAYERS that solve puzzles. If they stumble, or need help, as a DM I allow them to make perception, history, religion, or investigation checks as I see fit.

    Of course, every group should be free to choose how they run puzzles in their game. There is no rule that states that characters solve puzzles, not players. Nor is there a rule that states players solve them, not characters.
    I have a YouTube channel with D&D Puzzles, DM Tips and Quests ideas. Great for D&D or Pathfinder. :)

    Wally DM on YouTube

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2019

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Quote Originally Posted by wallyd2 View Post
    Doppelgangers are always great for espionage... I've also used Imps because they can be invisible and they may try to "tempt" the characters. Also, harmless animals are fun to have spy on characters... For puzzles, there are plenty of ideas you can pilfer from here: Over 50 D&D Puzzles on YouTube.

    Hope this helps!
    Yeah I’m working on stuff with the doppelgängers. I have a lot of cogs working but I can put them in as either red herrings or minions of one of the major players. Imps could be fun too.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Feb 2019

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Quote Originally Posted by wallyd2 View Post
    Actually, in my game it is the PLAYERS that solve puzzles. If they stumble, or need help, as a DM I allow them to make perception, history, religion, or investigation checks as I see fit.

    Of course, every group should be free to choose how they run puzzles in their game. There is no rule that states that characters solve puzzles, not players. Nor is there a rule that states players solve them, not characters.
    Agreed.

    Ultimately it is the players mind that figures out the puzzle but I’m gonna implement a roll system for sure because if the INT 8 player knows the answer there is no guarantee the character does. So I was thinking they all roll a stat a number of times equal to the modifier. But without adding that modifier. The number of successes determines the count down clock, number of attempts, amount of input the player can give their character or hints I might give on any particular puzzle.

    Makes it so there is a chance the INT 8 can succeed and the INT 18 could fail.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    May 2018

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Something that works quite well are "puzzle fight", which are very similar to boss battles in Zelda-like games:

    You have a set of enemies that actually behave more like traps than creatures, since they cannot be defeated just by striking them. You may need to understand some magical runes around, find a pattern in their behavior to exploit, lure the enemies into a trap to have a chance to defeat them, ... You can even add multiple "phases" to the enemies. Some advice if you do that: (1) Your players need some kind of safe zone / preparation time, since contrary to video games, they can't load a previous save after having been destroyed. (2) Contrary to videogames, your puzzle does not need a unique answer, and you can adapt to the player's thinking out-of-the-box.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2019

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Quote Originally Posted by MoiMagnus View Post
    Something that works quite well are "puzzle fight", which are very similar to boss battles in Zelda-like games:

    You have a set of enemies that actually behave more like traps than creatures, since they cannot be defeated just by striking them. You may need to understand some magical runes around, find a pattern in their behavior to exploit, lure the enemies into a trap to have a chance to defeat them, ... You can even add multiple "phases" to the enemies. Some advice if you do that: (1) Your players need some kind of safe zone / preparation time, since contrary to video games, they can't load a previous save after having been destroyed. (2) Contrary to videogames, your puzzle does not need a unique answer, and you can adapt to the player's thinking out-of-the-box.
    Ooh. I like a good boss puzzle fight. I have one set up that is a mirror room and they have to fight something far more dangerous for them at their current level. But when they die a different reality version of the team sees a mirror in the distance break. And the boss fight starts again with the monster having taken the damage from the other reality. If they pass a perception they will see that the various rooms are actually different phases of the fight, them entering the room, them releasing the monster. Etc. I’ll roll a d4 to decide when exactly they are after they die. 1- before they enter the room, 2- after the door shuts, 3- beginning of fight, 4- mid fight
    Solutions: Don’t release the monster. Beat the Monster. Break the monsters mirrors specifically. Banish it and move past. Something inspired that they come up with.
    Also. Every death I’ll roll a d20 and then randomly select a party member. Their next move will be at max level. Lvl 9 spell or 20th level skill kinda thing.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Mjolnirbear's Avatar

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    Mar 2015

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    My players meddled in Phandalin's politics. They decided they wanted Sildar for mayor. They involved a lordling in the campaign.

    They also negotiated a trade deal between Gundren and Gauntlgrym. They discussed Phandalin needing protection for its increased trading power and goods, and training a militia. They used their share of the mine to begin rebuilding Tressendor and started building a fence.

    They touched next to none of the side quests. It was great.
    Avatar by the awesome Linklele!

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Jun 2017

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Quote Originally Posted by TodChuncker View Post
    Agreed.

    Ultimately it is the players mind that figures out the puzzle but I’m gonna implement a roll system for sure because if the INT 8 player knows the answer there is no guarantee the character does. So I was thinking they all roll a stat a number of times equal to the modifier. But without adding that modifier. The number of successes determines the count down clock, number of attempts, amount of input the player can give their character or hints I might give on any particular puzzle.

    Makes it so there is a chance the INT 8 can succeed and the INT 18 could fail.
    You know... And, just a thought. But, INT 8 is only slightly below average intelligence... so not entirely dumb.

    Also, a player can solve a puzzle in the manner of a dumb character. For instance, my Magic Mouth puzzle required the characters to put 4 identical white cubes into 4 different slots. None of them could think of where to put them until the "below average INT" Barbarian says, "I lick the Cube". Well... upon doing so, he realized that even though each cube looked identical, they all had a different taste...

    Tasting a puzzle piece or putting it into the their mouth was an amazing way to solve the puzzle with the character's intelligence.

    Again... just a thought... and story. :)
    I have a YouTube channel with D&D Puzzles, DM Tips and Quests ideas. Great for D&D or Pathfinder. :)

    Wally DM on YouTube

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2019

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Quote Originally Posted by wallyd2 View Post
    You know... And, just a thought. But, INT 8 is only slightly below average intelligence... so not entirely dumb.

    Also, a player can solve a puzzle in the manner of a dumb character. For instance, my Magic Mouth puzzle required the characters to put 4 identical white cubes into 4 different slots. None of them could think of where to put them until the "below average INT" Barbarian says, "I lick the Cube". Well... upon doing so, he realized that even though each cube looked identical, they all had a different taste...

    Tasting a puzzle piece or putting it into the their mouth was an amazing way to solve the puzzle with the character's intelligence.

    Again... just a thought... and story. :)
    Your tone in the intro sentence isn’t needed.

    Int 8 is shared by Yetis, Skeleton Minotaurs, and giant eagles/owls. Simple puzzle solving and communication like a real life crow dolphin or even a pig is probably about the level of intelligence you can expect from an “uncivilized” being. Gnolls, who also share an Int 8 stat have their own societal structures beliefs and ways of communicating. Yes they understand hunting tactics and can probably solve some logic problems based around their understanding of the world. But put a gnoll in Neverwinter and it would be considered simple minded. That is the base from which a character with an 8 begins.

    Intelligence is knowledge or learned skills and a textbook understanding of how the world functions through study. Social norms, etiquette, reading/writing, logic. All these are learned either through reading or practical experience. Character backgrounds aside.

    Which brings me to my question for you: Why did he lick the cube? An intelligence check would have no baring on why a character might lick a cube. Perception would be the logical choice as perception is all your senses. So maybe he smelled a faint odor? Or, and this is more likely, your player chose to play a character that just loves to put things in his mouth, buying into the “less than bright” Int 8 score. So you created this puzzle so that this character could shine and feel better about the choices they have made in character creation.

    Which IS in a way what I was looking for by posting this article. OTHER skill checks aside from INT would work wonderfully in certain situations.

    That being said, even with a high perception check to observe surroundings and take in the full scope of the puzzle the INT 8 character may not put 2 and 2 together. That is why in every situation I will let the players decide how they want to roll based on what they think they can contribute.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Banned
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Aug 2010

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Quote Originally Posted by TodChuncker View Post
    Hello again, All

    Running a mixed bag of players through my augmented versions of lost mines and dragon of Ice Spire. Planting seeds and adding in some of the follow up sequel trilogy as well.

    The players have varying degrees of experience. From nothing to 3rd edition veterans. Nobody has played the modules so that’s a blessing.

    I have DM’d a 3 session one shot. Have been building my own pocket dimension campaign. Played half of Strahd. Currently lvl 7 on a moonshae islands campaign. And of course have watched everything critical role has done.

    On to the issue.

    I have 2 players that are all about social manipulation games and solving mysteries. Another is very RP and socially oriented. And then a dungeon crawler and a hack n’ slasher. But they all love a good puzzle.

    The first two are my issue. I’ve got plenty of the other stuff(could still use some puzzles) but the espionage and intrigue are lacking in the modules. I was thinking of utilizing the doppelgängers for something.

    I have Venomfang pulling strings on the Spider, and the Necromancer is the same one from the sequel trilogy.

    Any and all suggestions are welcome.

    Thanks!
    There are a couple super important things to keep in mind with puzzles:
    • no matter how obvious you think the solution is, your players have a 60-80% chance of staring right past it scratching their heads in absolute clueless bewilderment with no idea what to do.
    • Characters should be solving puzzles, not players.

    Luckily there is an easy solution to both of those points. Don't design a correct solution. Instead describe the puzzle & decide that the difficulty is something like three plausible things & make the players come up with how their characters handle it. Don't be afraid to add things to the puzzle as the players unwrap it. here is a pretty good example of using traps in fate that might help.

    Here is an example of a couple I've used & am pulling from memory

    There is a huge stone door covered with wards and arcane runes that keep the lower levels sealed in & outside influences sealed out.
    -Alice: checks for traps, determines there does not seem to be any on this side.
    -bob: Can I use my artificer's tools to alter the runes in the wards so that the seal is disrupted? -rolls are made & I describe himtwisting the web of arcane energies by carefully applying some mabaran night water to a pivitol point that sends the seal off kilter, but the door is still firmly stuck
    -Alice: Can I us my thieve's tools like a boroscope to peek under/through the door at what's going on back there? - I agree that under door tools are reasonable thieve's tool components in eberron, rolls are made & I describe how she sees the door was created with huge breakaway locking pins that snap& break into notches to physically seal the door after it got closed the first time. lice asks & agrees that the pins I describe are wedged too firmly & too heavy for magehand or something.
    -Chuck asks if he can use strength to force the doors open, both gm & alice agree that it seems too easy & like a bad idea so I tel them that won't work because the doors open out but there is no handle on their side to pull.
    - Bob starts looking for & inspecting the hinges hoping for a stroke of inspiration
    -Chuck looks at his sheet & notices he has six vials of acid & two cloud of daggers trinkets. He asks Bob to weigh in on if the acid he has could melt the hinges or if the cloud of daggers trinkets could be rigged to destroy the locks. - Everyone likes the cloud of daggers trinkets better & they use the acid to trigger the trinkets from a distance once the trinkets are firmly secured against the hinges.
    - For good measure, bob uses his artificer's tools to link the disturbed ward into the trinkets with the hope of supercharging the effect
    - The acid starts to fizzle on the trinkets & the arcane powers start to release until there is a lout boom & horrible shriek of force tearing through the stone door & wall sending that door toppling forward. As it falls, Alice notices a tiny greenish glass vial starting to fall just in time to yell for everyone to run. The room erupts in a cloud of unquestionably very lethal poison or acid & everyone feels good because they solved a rather complicated roadblock & did so without getting hurt with minimal expenditure of sources.

    -Meanwhile my notes said something like "Door, hard to unseal"

    Another example is when the party was trying to get into a crime lord's safe in a hidden basement. I describe it as being fused into a 5x5x8 foot slab of granite & humming with so many wards that just being near it it feels like standing near high voltage power lines.

    - Bob asks if arcana or artificer's tools would be better for gathering info about the wards without setting them off & is told artificer's tools. Some checks are made & he is told that the wards are tied to a system of divination that checks to make sure that A: the person opening it has an object with a specific arcane mark on it. B: that the key inserted into the safe has a specific arcane mark as well. If someone tries to turn the lock without having both a marked key and the proper token then ungodly amounts of energy tied up in the ward will get released... maybe disintegrate you aren't sure.

    - Alice asks if she can use her thieve's tools to duplicate the mark onto her picks if Bob can show her what it should look like. Bob thinks that's a great idea & wants to alter the divinstion component to look for a token they do have instead of the one the crime lord has. Rolls are made & both succeed. But I decide this is probably too easy & declare that bob notices the divination component includes a function that ensures the check for the token has not been tampered with when the key is turned.

    - Everyone sweats a little & looks nervous. Bob does the swap to the token they do have and uses his artificer tools to reroute the maybe disintegration payload into the lock so it destroys the lock if the ward gets triggered. Rolls are made, he's pretty sure it worked

    -They only have one token & for some reason think t's going to get destroyed if it fails & have no idea how things will play out when the latch is turned to open the door now that bob's done his thing & alice unlocked it. Chuck volunteers to be the only one in the room when he opens the door. Everyone goes into another room. Chuck is asked to make a ex save & everyone hears a loud explosion but are being rediculously cautious rather than going to see if bob is in need of help... perhaps the bright green glow coming from the room has something to do with that.
    - Chuck is freaking out because he still doesn't know what the save was for or if he failed it so I play everything out t once with everyone rushing into the room just in time to see bob shaking his hand because the bones in it were rattled by the exploding lock, he suffered half of 1d4=2 damage. everyone is thrilled because they succeeded on the most deadly obstacle they've encountered

    Was the payload spell actually disintegrate?... to a level 2 group it may as well have been if not, but they were pretty sure it was. No part of the story is enhanced by knowing that.

    The safe in my notes said something like "Boromar's safe: encased in granite with mega-wards". Solving those traps were puzzles.


    For intrigue as a GM, I massively suggest dfrpg city creation. Any version of fate can work, but it's probably the most helpful one for diving in with your needs.The fate fractal is super effective for running intrigue not subject to "colonel mustard did it in the library" after pressing screws to an obvious source. of information.
    Last edited by Tetrasodium; 2019-10-11 at 03:30 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2019

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Quote Originally Posted by Tetrasodium View Post
    There are a couple super important things to keep in mind with puzzles:
    • no matter how obvious you think the solution is, your players have a 60-80% chance of staring right past it scratching their heads in absolute clueless bewilderment with no idea what to do.
    • Characters should be solving puzzles, not players.

    Luckily there is an easy solution to both of those points. Don't design a correct solution. Instead describe the puzzle & decide that the difficulty is something like three plausible things & make the players come up with how their characters handle it. Don't be afraid to add things to the puzzle as the players unwrap it. here is a pretty good example of using traps in fate that might help.

    Here is an example of a couple I've used & am pulling from memory

    There is a huge stone door covered with wards and arcane runes that keep the lower levels sealed in & outside influences sealed out.
    -Alice: checks for traps, determines there does not seem to be any on this side.
    -bob: Can I use my artificer's tools to alter the runes in the wards so that the seal is disrupted? -rolls are made & I describe himtwisting the web of arcane energies by carefully applying some mabaran night water to a pivitol point that sends the seal off kilter, but the door is still firmly stuck
    -Alice: Can I us my thieve's tools like a boroscope to peek under/through the door at what's going on back there? - I agree that under door tools are reasonable thieve's tool components in eberron, rolls are made & I describe how she sees the door was created with huge breakaway locking pins that snap& break into notches to physically seal the door after it got closed the first time. lice asks & agrees that the pins I describe are wedged too firmly & too heavy for magehand or something.
    -Chuck asks if he can use strength to force the doors open, both gm & alice agree that it seems too easy & like a bad idea so I tel them that won't work because the doors open out but there is no handle on their side to pull.
    - Bob starts looking for & inspecting the hinges hoping for a stroke of inspiration
    -Chuck looks at his sheet & notices he has six vials of acid & two cloud of daggers trinkets. He asks Bob to weigh in on if the acid he has could melt the hinges or if the cloud of daggers trinkets could be rigged to destroy the locks. - Everyone likes the cloud of daggers trinkets better & they use the acid to trigger the trinkets from a distance once the trinkets are firmly secured against the hinges.
    - For good measure, bob uses his artificer's tools to link the disturbed ward into the trinkets with the hope of supercharging the effect
    - The acid starts to fizzle on the trinkets & the arcane powers start to release until there is a lout boom & horrible shriek of force tearing through the stone door & wall sending that door toppling forward. As it falls, Alice notices a tiny greenish glass vial starting to fall just in time to yell for everyone to run. The room erupts in a cloud of unquestionably very lethal poison or acid & everyone feels good because they solved a rather complicated roadblock & did so without getting hurt with minimal expenditure of sources.

    -Meanwhile my notes said something like "Door, hard to unseal"

    Another example is when the party was trying to get into a crime lord's safe in a hidden basement. I describe it as being fused into a 5x5x8 foot slab of granite & humming with so many wards that just being near it it feels like standing near high voltage power lines.

    - Bob asks if arcana or artificer's tools would be better for gathering info about the wards without setting them off & is told artificer's tools. Some checks are made & he is told that the wards are tied to a system of divination that checks to make sure that A: the person opening it has an object with a specific arcane mark on it. B: that the key inserted into the safe has a specific arcane mark as well. If someone tries to turn the lock without having both a marked key and the proper token then ungodly amounts of energy tied up in the ward will get released... maybe disintegrate you aren't sure.

    - Alice asks if she can use her thieve's tools to duplicate the mark onto her picks if Bob can show her what it should look like. Bob thinks that's a great idea & wants to alter the divinstion component to look for a token they do have instead of the one the crime lord has. Rolls are made & both succeed. But I decide this is probably too easy & declare that bob notices the divination component includes a function that ensures the check for the token has not been tampered with when the key is turned.

    - Everyone sweats a little & looks nervous. Bob does the swap to the token they do have and uses his artificer tools to reroute the maybe disintegration payload into the lock so it destroys the lock if the ward gets triggered. Rolls are made, he's pretty sure it worked

    -They only have one token & for some reason think t's going to get destroyed if it fails & have no idea how things will play out when the latch is turned to open the door now that bob's done his thing & alice unlocked it. Chuck volunteers to be the only one in the room when he opens the door. Everyone goes into another room. Chuck is asked to make a ex save & everyone hears a loud explosion but are being rediculously cautious rather than going to see if bob is in need of help... perhaps the bright green glow coming from the room has something to do with that.
    - Chuck is freaking out because he still doesn't know what the save was for or if he failed it so I play everything out t once with everyone rushing into the room just in time to see bob shaking his hand because the bones in it were rattled by the exploding lock, he suffered half of 1d4=2 damage. everyone is thrilled because they succeeded on the most deadly obstacle they've encountered

    Was the payload spell actually disintegrate?... to a level 2 group it may as well have been if not, but they were pretty sure it was. No part of the story is enhanced by knowing that.

    The safe in my notes said something like "Boromar's safe: encased in granite with mega-wards". Solving those traps were puzzles.


    For intrigue as a GM, I massively suggest dfrpg city creation. Any version of fate can work, but it's probably the most helpful one for diving in with your needs.The fate fractal is super effective for running intrigue not subject to "colonel mustard did it in the library" after pressing screws to an obvious source. of information.
    Thanks so much! Yeah seemingly complicated “problems” can feel like puzzles for a group. I have a few random encounters that are along the lines of your suggestions. A little social, some combat, and a bit of deception. I’ll check out those links as wells thanks again.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Banned
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2010

    Default Re: adding intrigue, deception, and “puzzles”

    Quote Originally Posted by TodChuncker View Post
    Thanks so much! Yeah seemingly complicated “problems” can feel like puzzles for a group. I have a few random encounters that are along the lines of your suggestions. A little social, some combat, and a bit of deception. I’ll check out those links as wells thanks again.
    Glad it helps, I can't recomment the "fate fractal" & aspects enough as a GM tool. They are pretty tough to wrap your brain around at first, but yes... it really is that simple yet capable of bottomless depth as a tool.the... gold and silver(?) rules fromit are also amazingly useful as a gm.

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