The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Considering all the ridiculous technology in these stories why not just mass produce special bullets that can ricochet and curve?
    "Why don't they invent/mass produce this thing that would help my argument" seems like a non-starter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Or Cap. could have thought of a different plan for 3 out of 5 of those scenarios. A problem can have other solutions than just "throw shield."
    "There could have been other solutions" is irrelevant. The one he picked worked, while also being (a) cool and (b) plausible.
    (Well, to people not named Magic_Hat anyway.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    That is such a strawman argument it doesn't deserve an answer. I'll just say if Hydra didn't try to take over the world in the 40s there'd be no super soldier program and no Captain America so by that logic Red Skull is really the hero.
    Bold said it better than I could.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post


    You mean like in Age of Ultron when he lost and have to rely on someone else getting it back?
    Have you considered that Cap knew she would do that if he needed her to? There is nothing wrong with a strategy that relies on your teammates provided they are the right teammates, which Natasha clearly was.
    Last edited by Lizard Lord; 2019-10-17 at 12:39 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Or Cap. could have thought of a different plan for 3 out of 5 of those scenarios. A problem can have other solutions than just "throw shield."
    ... when you are Captain America and your shield can make the laws of physics go stand in the corner while you take care of business, problems don't need a solution other than 'throw shield'.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    When Captain America throws his mighty shield, he knows that he will get it back. Otherwise, he wouldn't throw it in the first place. Unless the situation was dire and the consequences for failure would be even more dire, of course.

    You see, the Super Soldier Serum didn't just make him big, strong, tough and run fast. It also enhanced all of his other capabilities as well, to the very limits of human potential.
    This means that his senses (all of them), reflexes, balance, coordination, intellect (as in processing speed, memory, learning ability, etc. but not something like knowledge or technical skills) and just about everything else that a human body can do are at the best possible level for a human being.
    Now, factor in that this man has all of that going at the same time. Apparently, this combination of attributes means that such a man can train himself to throw an indestructible, circular shield (with weird special properties when it comes to how force affects it) so that it always comes back, even after riccocheting multiple times.

    I find this plausible.
    Last edited by Raimun; 2019-10-18 at 02:54 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Well it was dumb all those times before. The Austin Powers villain throwing a shoe was dumb, but a shoe isn't a one of a kind object.
    Total side track, but you know Random Task (the shoe guy) is based on Odd Job from Goldfinger, right? Odd Job threw his hat that had a steel reinforced rim that allowed him to use it to decapitate a marble statue. On top of that, the fact that he only had one and had to retrieve it were very plot relevant to how Bond ends up defeating him.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Except that the story managed to accomodate Thor, Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel...
    It's notable, however, that outside the big everything-goes setpieces, those characters are often isolated from the rest of the team.

    In Age of Ultron, Thor takes off to go on a hippy vision quest, while the rest of the team is getting the vibranium body, and only rejoins right before the final battle. He's entirely absent from Civil War. In Infinity War he spends almost the entire film in space apart from the other Avengers, only reappearing to assist in the defence of Wakanda (and not all of that). Even then, he also misses the team fight against Thanos, arriving only after Thanos has already defeated everyone and killed Vision. And in Endgame he is functionally depowered by making him a fat drunk.

    Scarlet Witch gets proportionally more action relative to the time she's been a part of the story, but she also misses a lot of it in Infintiy War by having her babysit Vision, and Endgame because she got snapped at the end of Infinity War.

    And Captain Marvel's appearance in Endgame was basically cameo. She was missing for almost the entire movie.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Right, but they all got to do something. Poor Vizh basically got built, hung around, flirted with Wanda a bit, got slapped around by the Black Order and got killed. Nor really the most memorable character arc.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Right, but they all got to do something. Poor Vizh basically got built, hung around, flirted with Wanda a bit, got slapped around by the Black Order and got killed. Nor really the most memorable character arc.
    He also shot War Machine in the back and crippled him for life.
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    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Right, but they all got to do something. Poor Vizh basically got built, hung around, flirted with Wanda a bit, got slapped around by the Black Order and got killed. Nor really the most memorable character arc.
    He got to fight Ultron, I guess? And he did kill Corvus Glaive, albeit not in the most impressive manner. I do agree that it would have been nice to have given him more to do in the films in which he appeared.

    I think Paul Bettany is cursed. He's a great actor but gets relatively few good roles and even when he does he tends to be underused.
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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    You can literally buy thousands of "mundane bullets" a year and don't ever have to worry about recovering any of said bullets because you can always buy more. Cap's shield is literally one of a kind and can't be replaced.
    That's a pretty good description of why one shouldn't use superheroes in general, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Vision can't do anything because if he's allowed to act he breaks the story. Probably why he got taken off the board.
    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Except that the story managed to accomodate Thor, Scarlet Witch and Captain Marvel...
    Nope Vision breaks the story from making an interesting story in a storytelling perspective about balancing various forms of tension and having a controlled flow of tension but also flares ups and flares downs.

    Why is this? It is not just about power it is also about the proper application of power which Vision due to the synergy of his power set is capable of.

    Vision can be sneaky if he wants to for he can fly through the ground bypassing the conflict entirely. No one can follow him, and thus you need someone like the Scarlet Witch (see Civil War) to remove him from the conflict entirely which most villians will not do for they lack the tools.

    Vision has almost infinite durability due to being able to alter his density.

    Vision has flight and super strength.

    Vision has his laser mindstone.

    Oh it is not clear what Vision can do with computers. Just phasing through Ultron allowed him to alter Ultron's code, and Jarvis the predecessor to Vision was able of several computer feets.

    -----

    Pretty much Vision has power and the skillset that allows not just raw power but precision use of the power if Vision is given the freedom to exercise this in the narrative. He is smart enough to do so, thus you must remove him off the board, put him somewhere else or else you do not get conflict from a story telling perspective.

    -----

    Note other "low power" Superheroes in the MCU may not have power but they have all these feats about proper user of power in a surgical manner with Black Widow and Hawkeye. The problem with Vision is he gets to do both.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    You can literally buy thousands of "mundane bullets" a year and don't ever have to worry about recovering any of said bullets because you can always buy more. Cap's shield is literally one of a kind and can't be replaced.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    That's a pretty good description of why one shouldn't use superheroes in general, though.
    Bullets are the replacement for superheroes? There are loads of stuff bullets can't replicate.

    And that's even when it comes to blasting things. In a world like MCU, bullets are weak. They are only able to kill mooks at the most. Many of the more powerful villains don't even care about bullets or even explosions.
    Sure, one could build special ammunation or energy weapons that can put up an actual fight against superbeings but that's in the realm of "super science", not much different from the Cap's shield.

    The shield of Captain America is in many ways a better weapon than any handheld gun. Apart from it's defensive capabilities, it's more versatile and has greater potential when it comes to dealing damage. I don't think an assault rifle would have fared as well as the shield against Iron Man in Captain America: Civil War.
    Of course, hardly anyone else than Cap could use the shield as well as him but in his hands, it's a powerful weapon.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Let's be honest, the Captain America shield is awesome. The thing that does not make sense is why Captain America does not have a jetpack like Falcon, or even better the repulsor levitation of the Iron Man Suit. Why doesn't Captain America not have a handheld repulsor beam to compliment the awesomeness of the shield.

    The only reason why is Tony Stark wants to keep his own toys instead of trusting it to reliable people besides himself. In some ways this makes sense. Yet at the same time Tony Stark is also creating almost all the problems of the MCU besides outside earth threats with Aliens. Seriously Tony Stark is a horrible judge of character, creating institutions, giving Shield even more weapon killing tech with improved helicarriers and so on.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raimun View Post
    Bullets are the replacement for superheroes? There are loads of stuff bullets can't replicate.
    Let's say that bullets are an allegory for mundane soldiers, and Cap's shield for superheroes Superheroes make for superhero stories, which is a different way to say "rule of cool", but they have so many downsides (what if one goes rogue? what if one is captured and turned? what if one goes insane?) that creating them looks like a terrible idea, and they also are one of a kind, so, if one goes lost, all that money was wasted. They're even worse than atomic bombs, since they can cause an arm's race, but at least an atomic bomb won't just get up and leave when it's annoyed.
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Let's be honest, the Captain America shield is awesome. The thing that does not make sense is why Captain America does not have a jetpack like Falcon, or even better the repulsor levitation of the Iron Man Suit. Why doesn't Captain America not have a handheld repulsor beam to compliment the awesomeness of the shield.
    .
    Captain america is Awesome and STOP. Without tecno stuff

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Cap is an acrobat and a martial artist. It's a different skillset than being a flyer or dogfighter, and he'd be fighting at reduced effectiveness if he tried to join the aerial battles.

    The more meta reason is they actually tried armouring Cap up in the comics in the 90s, and it was awful. The design was bad (one of his most regrettable costumes ever, probably tied with the old Nomad costume for the worst thing he's ever worn) and it just didn't feel right for Captain America.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Wasn't the Falcon's wingsuit a prototype that he and Cap stole? I can imagine that the U.S. Army wouldn't be too thrilled at the idea of giving another one out to the guy who stole the first one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Wasn't the Falcon's wingsuit a prototype that he and Cap stole? I can imagine that the U.S. Army wouldn't be too thrilled at the idea of giving another one out to the guy who stole the first one.
    Stark has a few people on the payroll who can reverse engineer it.

    But then this would stop being a superhero movie wouldn't it? If everyone gets the same wondrous tech equipment, soldier boosts and/or super secret mystical martial arts training it's just a science fiction/fantasy war movie. If everybody is the Hulk, nobody is.
    The ultimate OOTS cookie cutter nameless soldier is the hobgoblin.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Uma Thurman. Let's see if any of the kids at home get this reference.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Uma Thurman. Let's see if any of the kids at home get this reference.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Uma Thurman. Let's see if any of the kids at home get this reference.
    I suspect everyone gets the reference. 'Avengers... no, not that one' seems to be a trope among internet movie commentators like The Nostalgia Critic, etc. But that does point out that Diana Rigg's Emma Peel is clearly the best avenger of all time .



    Anyways, I'd have to say Hawkeye... but not for the usual 'he shoots a bow and arrow while other people shoot repulse rays or are literal gods' reason. The reason I say he's under rated is we all loved Hawkeye's personality, charisma, and characterization... as Robert Downey Jr. channeled them in his depiction of Tony Stark. Seriously, comic book Iron Man/Stark is (or at least was, as I suspect that the comic have bent themselves to match the MCU) something of a cold, jerkish alcoholic of the 'I'm glad he's on our side, but do I really have to carry on a conversation with him?' level. All the stuff that RDJ did to make him charming, that was all comic book Hawkeye's schtick.

    So, does Hawkeye's power set limit him? A little, but DC has a guy who also is just an archer and he's a key part of their super-group team (or heck, their guy who instead throws animal-themed boomerangs is also routinely considered their strongest asset). So power set alone can't keep a character from greatness. But when you get introduced X movies into a franchise, and someone else already has your characterization... man, there's not a lot you can do to salvage that situation.
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2019-10-24 at 02:51 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by TeChameleon View Post
    Cap is an acrobat and a martial artist. It's a different skillset than being a flyer or dogfighter, and he'd be fighting at reduced effectiveness if he tried to join the aerial battles.
    I am not talking flight as in flyer or dogfighter. I am talking flight as in getting from point A to B really fast either vertical (which Cap can't do without assistance) or extreme horizontal distances that even running at 15 to 60 miles per hour is still slower than flight. (And we do not know his top speed, but his running for long period speed is 13 miles in 30 minutes in Winter Soldier so that is a 2 min and 20 second mile. So we are talking 25 miles per hour.)

    Captain America is a force of nature in close combat. He is easily strong enough to overwhelm any human on earth even if they have superpowers, and he moves fast enough with his body and shield that he can distract your eye tracking abilities in close range. (You see blurs up close, but you could track him with your eyes if you were far away, it would be graceful but you could understand it, but up close the sudden kinetic movement is hard for the eye to follow.)

    Captain America is a super human figure, but he still is only human, and thus having some better mobility will help him close combat or enter combats he can't enter and thus he should really have some form of flight or something to allow him jump really high and scale buildings in a single jump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    Uma Thurman. Let's see if any of the kids at home get this reference.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Captain America is a force of nature in close combat. He is easily strong enough to overwhelm any human on earth even if they have superpowers,
    Hulk now count as spaceman because Hulk green? Hulk go hang with Kermit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    Hulk now count as spaceman because Hulk green? Hulk go hang with Kermit.
    I consider Hulk part God / beyond Human now. I hate this term but Nietzsche had a concept of a Superman and the Superman brings tacos to his friends for he is kind, generous, and "the best of us."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Get out of here Mr. Rogers! Nobody mentioned any flying monkeys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    What kind of "tactical genius" throws a shield? You know - a shield - an object meant for protection that functions the least efficiently when a distance from your being. I mean have you ever seen a film where a soldier takes off his helmet and throws it at someone? And no I don't care if it's something from the comics. It was dumb in the comics too.
    Oddjob, the James Bond villain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    Oddjob, the James Bond villain.
    A: Not a soldier. I mean someone going into battle, not a covert assassin that can weaponize anything.
    B: Not a helmet. Helmets are meant to protect you. Why take off something that protects your head - THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR BODY! And this just goes back to the first part he's a covert assassin not going into battle where bullets and lasers are flying around everywhere.

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    Default Re: Most under rated Avenger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    What kind of "tactical genius" throws a shield? You know - a shield - an object meant for protection that functions the least efficiently when a distance from your being. I mean have you ever seen a film where a soldier takes off his helmet and throws it at someone? And no I don't care if it's something from the comics. It was dumb in the comics too.
    Why, yes, yes I have. It was in a fairly well received movie, too.

    If you don't want to click through, it was Saving Private Ryan, and two soldiers took off their helmets and threw them. And they did it before they pulled out their sidearms and used bullets.
    Last edited by Darth Credence; 2019-10-25 at 02:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Captain America is a super human figure, but he still is only human, and thus having some better mobility will help him close combat or enter combats he can't enter and thus he should really have some form of flight or something to allow him jump really high and scale buildings in a single jump.
    That's why he (and Hawkeye, for that matter) often have those weird flying motorcycle dealies.

    ... and also Quinjets. And his non-flying motorcycle. Just because fantastical transportation options exist doesn't mean you've gotta use 'em, or even that they're necessarily the best fit for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_Hat View Post
    A: Not a soldier. I mean someone going into battle, not a covert assassin that can weaponize anything.
    B: Not a helmet. Helmets are meant to protect you. Why take off something that protects your head - THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR BODY! And this just goes back to the first part he's a covert assassin not going into battle where bullets and lasers are flying around everywhere.
    But the shield is designed to be able to be thrown making the helmet analogy particularly poor. Though by a weird coincidence I was just reading a comic where a soldier having lost his sword uses his helmet to beat his opponent to death as its the only weapon he has to hand and killing your opponent is the best protection you can get (Green Valley by Image comics for the record

    Oh and the Harlan Ellison short story short story 'Along the scenic route' has a combat terminally ended by use of a helmet as a missile
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2019-10-27 at 07:35 AM.
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