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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    So, because I'll be playing a wizard I want to ask how you feel about pre-game crafting, both for items in general and for my trusty quarterstaff that will be the arcane focus.

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    A small request: for the Wizard archetype Exploiter Wizard, could I have the Exploiter Exploit ability replace my Wizard Bonus Feats (including Scribe Scroll) instead of my Arcane School? Iím planning to build a Summoning-focused Tiefling Wizard, and I wanted to use Sin Magic (Sloth) as my Arcane School.
    Last edited by In4Dimensions; 2019-10-10 at 09:47 AM.
    Chaotic Good, probably

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    (Let's see how this turns out.)

    Dice for the Dice Gods!

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    Lots of wizards already being created, but this sounds like a perfect time to try out a necromancer. Never really had the cause to, or the opportunity to, since people tend to dislike them in good parties.

    Quite obviously one of the devotees to An Bhais coming to aid his master.
    Last edited by Janwin; 2019-10-10 at 09:38 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Yeah so many wizards, might need to reconsider my options.

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    I mean, a Necromancer seems fun, but I've got a decent stat line to run pretty much anything the party needs. We don't have a rogue yet, it looks like.

    Debating templates (if any) to go with a Necromancer. Playing a vampire would be fun, but dragging their coffin through the jungle seems less fun. Plus having to operate at night only. So not really feasible.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    My basic plan is to make a wizard who was drawn to necromancy after a serious illness that she's never truly recovered from. This has basically shown her her mortality and she is desperate to escape death. Of course, our lich-friend knows who to escape these bounds and that's why she's helping. She's gambling everything so he will teach her how to become a lich herself. So yeah, I'm rather stuck as a necromancer.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janwin View Post
    I mean, a Necromancer seems fun, but I've got a decent stat line to run pretty much anything the party needs. We don't have a rogue yet, it looks like.

    Debating templates (if any) to go with a Necromancer. Playing a vampire would be fun, but dragging their coffin through the jungle seems less fun. Plus having to operate at night only. So not really feasible.
    Actually if it was at all a real jungle, thick canopy cover would prevent you from virtually ever being exposed to "Direct Sunlight"

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Raunchel View Post
    So, because I'll be playing a wizard I want to ask how you feel about pre-game crafting, both for items in general and for my trusty quarterstaff that will be the arcane focus.
    Iím pretty leery of pre-game crafting in general, because of how potentially unbalanced it can be. What do you have in mind specially?

    Quote Originally Posted by In4Dimensions View Post
    A small request: for the Wizard archetype Exploiter Wizard, could I have the Exploiter Exploit ability replace my Wizard Bonus Feats (including Scribe Scroll) instead of my Arcane School? Iím planning to build a Summoning-focused Tiefling Wizard, and I wanted to use Sin Magic (Sloth) as my Arcane School.
    No, Iím afraid not in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeMonsters View Post
    Yeah so many wizards, might need to reconsider my options.
    Hey, if you guys want to run a pack of squishy flesh sacks through my death course jungle, more power to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janwin View Post
    I mean, a Necromancer seems fun, but I've got a decent stat line to run pretty much anything the party needs. We don't have a rogue yet, it looks like.

    Debating templates (if any) to go with a Necromancer. Playing a vampire would be fun, but dragging their coffin through the jungle seems less fun. Plus having to operate at night only. So not really feasible.
    That would be funny to watch if nothing else. Better hope no one tries to open the lid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raunchel View Post
    My basic plan is to make a wizard who was drawn to necromancy after a serious illness that she's never truly recovered from. This has basically shown her her mortality and she is desperate to escape death. Of course, our lich-friend knows who to escape these bounds and that's why she's helping. She's gambling everything so he will teach her how to become a lich herself. So yeah, I'm rather stuck as a necromancer.
    Sounds like an interesting concept to me.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    I see what you did there lol.
    Hmm might have to consider something unique. Were-Jaguar could be fun for the jungle.
    Worm that Walks might work.
    Vampire is doable if played right.

    Since this is in the effort to work with evil, gotta consider a few baddies myself.

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Hmm. Well, maybe I'll join the undead crew, then.

    Henry, how do you feel about Death Knights?

    For a Death Knight, I'm thinking an evil paladin in service to An Bhail (basically, treating An Bhail as his god). Gives the party some meat shield and goes along with the theme of working for the lich.

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry the 57th View Post
    No, Iím afraid not in this case.
    Understandable. Iíll just take the archetype, then.
    Chaotic Good, probably

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry the 57th View Post
    Iím pretty leery of pre-game crafting in general, because of how potentially unbalanced it can be. What do you have in mind specially?
    If it were blanket allowed I would craft all my wondrous items, but otherwise only my quarterstaff to be Defending on both sides. I'll also build in a fancy Holy Symbol (to get around material components for the cheaper necromancy spells) to be able to have hands free for somatic components while holding my focus (the staff). And yes, she'll be a horrible staff fighter.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeMonsters View Post
    I see what you did there lol.
    Hmm might have to consider something unique. Were-Jaguar could be fun for the jungle.
    Worm that Walks might work.
    Vampire is doable if played right.

    Since this is in the effort to work with evil, gotta consider a few baddies myself.
    I do like creativity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janwin View Post
    Hmm. Well, maybe I'll join the undead crew, then.

    Henry, how do you feel about Death Knights?

    For a Death Knight, I'm thinking an evil paladin in service to An Bhail (basically, treating An Bhail as his god). Gives the party some meat shield and goes along with the theme of working for the lich.
    Okay, I could see an antipaladin death knight. Go for it.

    Edit: Sorry to change my mind, but reviewing it those bonuses seem too hefty to be allowed.

    Quote Originally Posted by In4Dimensions View Post
    Understandable. Iíll just take the archetype, then.
    Sounds good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raunchel View Post
    If it were blanket allowed I would craft all my wondrous items, but otherwise only my quarterstaff to be Defending on both sides. I'll also build in a fancy Holy Symbol (to get around material components for the cheaper necromancy spells) to be able to have hands free for somatic components while holding my focus (the staff). And yes, she'll be a horrible staff fighter.
    I donít have the books on hand, how much is that saving you again?
    Last edited by Henry the 57th; 2019-10-10 at 11:27 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    I am gonna need to consider which one to do. They all sound interesting.
    To bad you don't want to allow 3rd party a Moss Lich would be bomb in a jungle environment.

    *Off to the drawing board*

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry the 57th View Post
    I do like creativity.


    Okay, I could see an antipaladin death knight. Go for it.


    Sounds good.


    I donít have the books on hand, how much is that saving you again?
    It's saving me 8k on the staff.

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Janwin View Post
    Hmm. Well, maybe I'll join the undead crew, then.

    Henry, how do you feel about Death Knights?

    For a Death Knight, I'm thinking an evil paladin in service to An Bhail (basically, treating An Bhail as his god). Gives the party some meat shield and goes along with the theme of working for the lich.
    Iím sorry for contradicting myself, but taking a look at that again it seems too strong for only +2 CR. Those stat boosts are crazy powerful, plus DR and a fear aura and spells and a mount? Thatís too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raunchel View Post
    It's saving me 8k on the staff.
    Yeah, Iíll allowing crafting on that one item.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Mount only applies if you take the special mount option from anti-paladin. If you don't, you get nothing, I thought.

    But yeah, now that I've been digging through it a bit more it does seem a bit strong for +2 CR. Trading 2 levels of abilities and HP is a lot, and so is being destroyed instead of just dying when reaching 0 HP, but the high DR and SR probably more than makes up for those downsides of being undead.

    Looking through the other similarly themed CR +2 templates, they're all pretty similar in what they get as far as ability scores, DR and SR. Graveknight gets higher Ability Scores but a bit less DR and SR. Blood Knight (ew!) gets higher ability scores but less DR and no SR but fast healing 10. Skeleton Warrior gets 2 less Charisma, but just as powerful DR and SR but fewer abilities.

    Maybe it's just that CR +2 templates are too powerful?

    Now that I'm looking through them a bit deeper, it seems like Graveknight would be a better choice for a PC anyway due to its ability to come back to life eventually if it's brought to 0HP (1d10 days, but still better than creating a new character mid-campaign). It's ability score bonuses are pretty crazy, though, which seems to be the trend for CR +2.
    Last edited by Janwin; 2019-10-10 at 11:54 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    I think I am gonna persue a Dhampir with the Vampire Template, and his class will be either Sorcerer or Bard.

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    If Graveknight isn't acceptable, would it be better to use the Skeleton Warrior template (CR +2) which trades off all the special abilities, spells, etc? It still has a fear aura (I doubt we'll be facing any CR <5 stuff, though, so it's not going to matter much), but also doesn't gain any feats or anything that the other ones have.

    I'd love it if we could put in the Graveknight's regeneration on dying, just for ease of not having to create a new character when brought to 0HP as a front-line fighter, though, or saying the Necromancer can bring the skeleton back if it goes down (contrary to undead having: "Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities."). Call it a mini-Graveknight, or a less-broken Graveknight.
    Last edited by Janwin; 2019-10-10 at 12:14 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Janwin View Post
    Mount only applies if you take the special mount option from anti-paladin. If you don't, you get nothing, I thought.

    But yeah, now that I've been digging through it a bit more it does seem a bit strong for +2 CR. Trading 2 levels of abilities and HP is a lot, and so is being destroyed instead of just dying when reaching 0 HP, but the high DR and SR probably more than makes up for those downsides of being undead.

    Looking through the other similarly themed CR +2 templates, they're all pretty similar in what they get as far as ability scores, DR and SR. Graveknight gets higher Ability Scores but a bit less DR and SR. Blood Knight (ew!) gets higher ability scores but less DR and no SR but fast healing 10. Skeleton Warrior gets 2 less Charisma, but just as powerful DR and SR but fewer abilities.

    Maybe it's just that CR +2 templates are too powerful?

    Now that I'm looking through them a bit deeper, it seems like Graveknight would be a better choice for a PC anyway due to its ability to come back to life eventually if it's brought to 0HP (1d10 days, but still better than creating a new character mid-campaign). It's ability score bonuses are pretty crazy, though, which seems to be the trend for CR +2.
    You do have a point there. Hmm... perhaps I should limit templates to CR +1. What do you guys think? Iím kind of conflicted because things like vampire have enough weaknesses that I feel theyíre reasonable. Maybe I should just continue approving or not on an ad hoc basis?
    Last edited by Henry the 57th; 2019-10-10 at 12:17 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Gonna keep the undeath thing going, I'm working on a Shabti Divine Hunter of Charon with a pet Fiendish Death Worm. His memories were shattered when he was reborn, so he doesn't recall much of his mortal life. One fragment he does remember however us that he held a seat of power in Osirion(he is convinced he was a Pharaoh, though that may not be the case) and that An Bhail was somehow involved in getting him that power. What he wants is An Bhail to recover all of his lost memories without making him have to give up his 'perfect body' in order to do so. He believes with those memories, he'll be able to takeover Osirion as Grand Pharaoh.

    That sound alright to you? Or should I aim for something else?
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChaoticHarmony View Post
    One fragment he does remember however us that he held a seat of power in Osirion(he is convinced he was a Pharaoh, though that may not be the case) and that An Bhail was somehow involved in getting him that power. What he wants is An Bhail to recover all of his lost memories without making him have to give up his 'perfect body' in order to do so. He believes with those memories, he'll be able to takeover Osirion as Grand Pharaoh.
    This is a very funny coincidence, since I had just settled on whipping up a Reliquarian Occultist dedicated to Sekhmet, who has come to An Bhail in the hopes of soliciting his aid to take vengeance against the Avistani interlopers who have ruled Osirion for far too long, and restore the worship of the old pantheon... could work wonderfully or awfully together with your character, depending.

    @Henry: Could werelion be approved as a template? Lions are the sacred animal of Sekhmet, so I thought it might be appropriately thematic.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henry the 57th View Post
    You do have a point there. Hmm... perhaps I should limit templates to CR +1. What do you guys think? Iím kind of conflicted because things like vampire have enough weaknesses that I feel theyíre reasonable. Maybe I should just continue approving or not on an ad hoc basis?
    The more I look at the Vampire, the less I think the weaknesses drag it back down under the other CR +2 templates. Its stats line is pretty insane. 5HP/round regen. Doesn't die at 0HP like other undead. Sure, there's a few things that really screw it (like direct sunlight which is less of a problem in a jungle), but it's definitely in line with the other CR +2s when you add in its resistances and abilities.

    It really looks like there's a massive power hike when you go from CR +1 to CR +2. Even CR +1 is a pretty big power hike compared to just getting a normal character level.

    I think it'd be absolutely hilarious and fun to have a party of undead and an alive necromancer. But the templates that make undead not just "a skeleton" or "a zombie" also come with some pretty powerful stuff it seems.

    Might I suggest a fix that might at least help a little? Add on a 1 level tax for taking a template. So CR +1 costs 2 levels, CR +2 costs 3 levels. That way, since the game is level 10, if you take a CR +2 template with a powerful ability score line, at least you're not ALSO getting your 8th level ability score increase on top of it. You also lose some more class abilities which helps regain the difference that the template abilities have.

    An alternative (or additional) that you might consider is to just remove the race from people taking undead templates. Say the Template is their race (so no racial ability scores, additional abilities/qualities, feats, etc). After all, once you're undead, whether you were an elf, human or orc kinda doesn't matter anymore. You're animated bones now, kid. That'd also help to make the Ability Score bonuses less of a massive bonus to the templates.
    Last edited by Janwin; 2019-10-10 at 12:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foryn Gilnith View Post
    This is a very funny coincidence, since I had just settled on whipping up a Reliquarian Occultist dedicated to Sekhmet, who has come to An Bhail in the hopes of soliciting his aid to take vengeance against the Avistani interlopers who have ruled Osirion for far too long, and restore the worship of the old pantheon... could work wonderfully or awfully together with your character, depending.

    @Henry: Could werelion be approved as a template? Lions are the sacred animal of Sekhmet, so I thought it might be appropriately thematic.
    Oo! What is Sekmet's alignment? And would he happen to have the Animal Domain?
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaoticHarmony View Post
    Gonna keep the undeath thing going, I'm working on a Shabti Divine Hunter of Charon with a pet Fiendish Death Worm. His memories were shattered when he was reborn, so he doesn't recall much of his mortal life. One fragment he does remember however us that he held a seat of power in Osirion(he is convinced he was a Pharaoh, though that may not be the case) and that An Bhail was somehow involved in getting him that power. What he wants is An Bhail to recover all of his lost memories without making him have to give up his 'perfect body' in order to do so. He believes with those memories, he'll be able to takeover Osirion as Grand Pharaoh.

    That sound alright to you? Or should I aim for something else?
    Sounds pretty good to me. Is the fiendish death worm his mount?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foryn Gilnith View Post
    This is a very funny coincidence, since I had just settled on whipping up a Reliquarian Occultist dedicated to Sekhmet, who has come to An Bhail in the hopes of soliciting his aid to take vengeance against the Avistani interlopers who have ruled Osirion for far too long, and restore the worship of the old pantheon... could work wonderfully or awfully together with your character, depending.

    @Henry: Could werelion be approved as a template? Lions are the sacred animal of Sekhmet, so I thought it might be appropriately thematic.
    You mean a lycanthrope with a lion form? Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janwin View Post
    The more I look at the Vampire, the less I think the weaknesses drag it back down under the other CR +2 templates. Its stats line is pretty insane. 5HP/round regen. Doesn't die at 0HP like other undead. Sure, there's a few things that really screw it (like direct sunlight which is less of a problem in a jungle), but it's definitely in line with the other CR +2s when you add in its resistances and abilities.

    It really looks like there's a massive power hike when you go from CR +1 to CR +2. Even CR +1 is a pretty big power hike compared to just getting a normal character level.

    I think it'd be absolutely hilarious and fun to have a party of undead and an alive necromancer. But the templates that make undead not just "a skeleton" or "a zombie" also come with some pretty powerful stuff it seems.

    Might I suggest a fix that might at least help a little? Add on a 1 level tax for taking a template. So CR +1 costs 2 levels, CR +2 costs 3 levels. That way, since the game is level 10, if you take a CR +2 template with a powerful ability score line, at least you're not ALSO getting your 8th level ability score increase on top of it. You also lose some more class abilities which helps regain the difference that the template abilities have.
    Not a bad idea. What do the rest of you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaoticHarmony View Post
    Oo! What is Sekmet's alignment? And would he happen to have the Animal Domain?
    Chaotic Neutral. She has Chaos, Destruction, Fire, Healing, and War.
    Last edited by Henry the 57th; 2019-10-10 at 12:41 PM.

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry the 57th View Post
    Not a bad idea. What do the rest of you think?
    I edited in this on that post, in case you missed it, which I think would help to alleviate the massive bonus these templates get from their ability score increases:

    An alternative (or additional) that you might consider is to just remove the race from people taking undead templates. Say the Template is their race (so no racial ability scores, additional abilities/qualities, feats, etc). After all, once you're undead, whether you were an elf, human or orc kinda doesn't matter anymore. You're animated bones now, kid. That'd also help to make the Ability Score bonuses less of a massive bonus to the templates.

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry the 57th View Post
    Maybe I should just continue approving or not on an ad hoc basis?
    Makes sense. Blanket rules rarely cover all the important cases. (IRL CG alignment, y'see.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChaoticHarmony View Post
    Oo! What is Sekmet's alignment? And would he happen to have the Animal Domain?
    She, you heathen! Chaotic neutral, and sadly No: Chaos, Destruction, Fire, Healing, War.

    I'm also really enjoying the idea of three or four varied undead and one necromancer. That's cute.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry the 57th View Post
    Not a bad idea. What do the rest of you think?
    Seems fair. I don't want it, cuz I picked a template already, but it's reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janwin View Post
    An alternative (or additional) that you might consider is to just remove the race from people taking undead templates. Say the Template is their race (so no racial ability scores, additional abilities/qualities, feats, etc). After all, once you're undead, whether you were an elf, human or orc kinda doesn't matter anymore. You're animated bones now, kid. That'd also help to make the Ability Score bonuses less of a massive bonus to the templates.
    Also reasonable.
    Last edited by Dimers; 2019-10-10 at 12:43 PM.
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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    I agree CR +2 is strong and honestly anything CR +3 is just.. wow.
    But losing 2 class levels already is a huge kick in the stack for characters. A wizard two levels because a human wizard is definitely taking a loss at being a vampire or something of that nature.
    Now sure if you take a template and you are a Fighter, it might help having a str boost but your losing out on BAB an Saves as well as HD. Remember those CR are empty levels. So a 8th level Fighter is two whole HD down from a 10th level and for a caster thats even worse given that they could be losing even more HP and Caster Levels.

    So imagine in a tenth level game you are a 7th level wizard, with only 7 HD and only throwing at best your first few level 4 spells while a tenth level human wizard is comfortably slinging 5th level spells has 10 HD, Saves, etc. Definitely a hit.

    Just remember with Lycantrophy a Lion has a CR of 3 with Lycantrophy adding a +1 So your talking 4 empty levels and 6 class levels for a Were-Lion.
    Last edited by HereBeMonsters; 2019-10-10 at 12:47 PM.

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    Quote Originally Posted by Janwin View Post
    I edited in this on that post, in case you missed it, which I think would help to alleviate the massive bonus these templates get from their ability score increases:

    An alternative (or additional) that you might consider is to just remove the race from people taking undead templates. Say the Template is their race (so no racial ability scores, additional abilities/qualities, feats, etc). After all, once you're undead, whether you were an elf, human or orc kinda doesn't matter anymore. You're animated bones now, kid. That'd also help to make the Ability Score bonuses less of a massive bonus to the templates.
    Let me mull that over a few minutes, but that does have a nice ring to it. I should have thought more carefully before including templates.

    Quote Originally Posted by HereBeMonsters View Post
    I think I am gonna persue a Dhampir with the Vampire Template, and his class will be either Sorcerer or Bard.
    Sorry I didnít catch this earlier. That seems okay.
    "All generalizations are false."
    -Me

    Please remeber the impotence of poofreading everything you right.

    Avatar by Emperor Ing.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: [Mid-Level Pathfinder] Rumble Through the Jungle

    @Henry Unfortunately no unless there is a spell that can increase the size of Magical Beasts than I can make permanent. The AC Death Worm is only Medium size until I take the Beast Speaker Mastery at lvl 11, when it becomes large.

    @Dimers Forgive me! I am not as familiar with the Egyptian Gods/dresses (part of why I think it will be fun playing this). I decided to go with Set instead of Charon as he is closer thematically to what I want while still being a God who will approve of me being quasi-undead AND using a Death Worm. We should totally team up to conquer Osirion once we get what we want from An Bhail 😈
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanne Collins
    Strange things did happen here, no stranger would it be if we met at midnight in the hanging tree


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