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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2018

    Default Re: Thoughts on Pathfinder 2nd edition?

    It's not a lack of options caused by only a couple of books being out so far, it's that the structure of the game & the focus on balance is set up to prevent interesting options being allowable. See the crit mechanic which disallows even +1 bonuses on the attack roll, or the spells with the incapacitating tag and what that does.

    There's other weird stuff like stealth outside combat just dropping you straight into combat with the skill check as your initiative (if you want to actually sneak past the orcs...no luck) which seems to be in there purely to keep adventures on the rails. I think it's no coincidence that D&D 5e is outselling PF2 about 8:1, judging by the sales ranks on Amazon (current sales, not cumulative).

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: Thoughts on Pathfinder 2nd edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Why is that?

    I've felt assurance is the one thing missing from 5E's skill system (where you have to be a ridiculously high level just to reliably pass an easy DC skill check...)
    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    Probably because it removes "Take 10" from everyone and any sensible action, rather than only having it for a single skill.
    I actually don't have that much issue with "Take 10" being taken away by default and re-becoming an option only with a feat and only on one skill at a time.

    My issue is this: "Take 10" only ever changed the "luck" component of a character's attempt to do anything from a variable d20 to a reliable 10. That was the only thing it did, and it didn't over-reach that parameter. Assurance, on the other hand, changes the "luck" component from a variable d20 to a reliable 10, negates any and all penalties you may have, and also negates any bonuses you may have EXCEPT for your proficiency (that's level plus 2, 4, 6, or 8, depending on how proficient you are). Which might sound fair and balanced, but let's look at what's going on.

    Penalties to a skill check would come from negative conditions like being encumbered or being frightened. I.e., things that are not ALWAYS going to be inflicted on your character. So using Assurance may SOMETIMES knock off a penalty, but will many times not be.

    On the other hand, Assurance flat out does not allow you to use your ability modifier (since that isn't included in your proficiency). Something that otherwise is ALWAYS added to your character's skill check. So if you use Assurance, you pay the CONSTANT price of not using your ability modifier for the OCCASIONAL benefit of not suffering a penalty.

    That is not okay with me.

    Or you can look at it another way: if your ability modifier is +0, then taking the Assurance feat is effectively you buying the ability to "Take 10". But if your ability modifier is +5, then taking the Assurance feat is effectively you buying the ability to "Take 5". I.e., you can pay the same price in both cases (a feat), but one gets you diminished returns on your investment ("Take 5" vs "Take 10").

    That is not okay with me.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Thoughts on Pathfinder 2nd edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    Probably because it removes "Take 10" from everyone and any sensible action, rather than only having it for a single skill.
    Importantly, taking 10 doesn't work under stress (i.e. when you actually need it), and Assurance does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tectorman View Post
    Assurance, on the other hand, changes the "luck" component from a variable d20 to a reliable 10, negates any and all penalties you may have, and also negates any bonuses you may have EXCEPT for your proficiency (that's level plus 2, 4, 6, or 8, depending on how proficient you are).
    Penalties to skill checks are relatively rare, and I'm fine with Assurance negating those. Not using your ability modifier is pretty weird, I agree with that. They could easily have made it (e.g.) 7 + ability mod instead of a flat 10.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Location
    Montana

    Default Re: Thoughts on Pathfinder 2nd edition?

    Assurance does sound fairly poor in most cases. From what I have seen on the Paizo forums, it is mostly picked up for athletics to use as your third action in combat on trip/grab and ignore the attack penalties (-8/-10) while targeting the fortitude or reflex save depending on which maneuver you are doing. Which seems like another layer of strangeness on combat in PF2. Once you are at that point the common (level -2) enemies that you couldn't land a 3rd attack on without a 20, but you can perfectly knock them prone...

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Thoughts on Pathfinder 2nd edition?

    Somewhat related question- has there been a time jump to the setting our anything? Like is the Worldwound now closed- etc? Even though Pathfinder's world is very "zoney"- I do really admire the Adventure Paths and how many of them tie in to the larger world.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2008

    Default Re: Thoughts on Pathfinder 2nd edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloanzilla View Post
    Somewhat related question- has there been a time jump to the setting our anything? Like is the Worldwound now closed- etc? Even though Pathfinder's world is very "zoney"- I do really admire the Adventure Paths and how many of them tie in to the larger world.
    There's a time jump relative to P1E's ISWG, but for groups that managed to keep up with all of the APs in realtime, no. Though they did have to pick and choose which endings to go with and make canonical as opposed to others.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Jun 2007

    Default Re: Thoughts on Pathfinder 2nd edition?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sloanzilla View Post
    Somewhat related question- has there been a time jump to the setting our anything?
    There has been no time jump; every real-world year also advances Golarion by one year. The worldwound was closed in one of the adventure paths, which are canon. So the P2 setting is the same as the P1 setting, plus the outcome of adventure paths.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

    "I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
    Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Thoughts on Pathfinder 2nd edition?

    Thanks, I actually like how they handled that, then.

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