The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 63
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkVIIIMarc View Post
    Don't High Elf Bards still get to plunder a Wizard Cantrip?
    Yes, but if it's a combat cantrip it's intelligence based.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobthewizard View Post
    Here's another way to look at the hypothetical that might sort this better for someone. If you were playing a sorcerer, would you replace the spell list with the wizard or bard list. For wizard, the answer is clearly yes. I'd love to play a sorcerer with access to the wizard list. But what about the bard list?
    You could, of course, ask the same question of every Class; given [chosen class], what spell list would you choose if you could pick any? This isn't the same question as "which spell list is the best?".

    A Bard, for example, benefits from Magical Secrets, making their choice less restrictive and thus making smaller or less versatile lists more attractive; the limitations of the Warlock or Paladin spell list might look a lot more appealing to someone looking for more of those unique or niches spells that those lists offer (setting aside that both the Paladin and Ranger lists only go up to level 5, of course).

    A Wizard or Cleric, on the other hand, who benefit from being able to customise the spells they prepare, is going to want the most diverse and versatile list available to them. Being able to choose one perfect spell for a situation is better than having to choose one spell to fit as many circustances as possible, after all.

    This is what makes the OP somewhat misleading, ambiguous and/or irrelevant. "The best" is not objective because every class/character has differemt criteria for what might be considered "good", but on top of that, it's subjective based on individual character/player style. A Draconic Heritage Sorcerer, for example, is probably going to want a lot more elemental blasting spells on whatever list they consider the best, based on their draconic heritage. That doesn't necessarily make that list any better for the Draconic Heritage Sorcerer with a different draconic heritage, let alone a different Class, Race, Feats or play style.

    Therefore, the only measure we have to judge "the best" is the list that caters to the most different playstyles and characters as possible. This is why I would differ on putting Wizard in the top spot instead of Bard; because while the former might have some of the most powerful individual spells in the game on it, whilst also enjoying many of those downtime utility spells that a "spell known" caster might not be able to afford, this isn't a judgement of individual spells, but of spell lists and the Bard, while certainly a little lacking in certain areas, probably covers the most bases.

    So my advice for anyone interested in this topic is to go back and look not at what amazingly powerful or useful spells are on each list, but to go and have a look at how many different playstyles that list accomodates. I think you may be surprised at what you find. For me, I might rank them roughly;

    1) Druid. Surprisingly nice mixed bag, including buffs, debuffs, area control, healing, blasting, melee and summons.

    2) Bard. Good mix of all spheres, with minor deficiencies in blasting and area control. Lack of summons takes it down a notch from my original judgement.

    3) Cleric. Like Druid but a bit more focused on what it does best; buffs & healz.

    4) Warlock. Another shocker for me and whilst it may seem odd, the fact that it has Conjure Fey on it opens up a lot of potential doors that the Wizard list simply doesn"t have until much higher levels. Other than that, although quite a short list, it's remarkable for what it can do, including some unique spells. This might even be a No.1 pick for a Lore Bard, if given the choice of what list to use, given Magical Secrets on top.

    5) Wizard. I'm looking at it and the more I do, the less potential I'm seeing in it. Especially in the lower tiers of play. Sure, it's a long list and has some very powerful spells...but it's not that versatile. It can blast, buff, debuff and has area control, but its summons are pretty lacklustre until it gets Gate, unless you count Planar Binding (which is both expensive and very GM dependent), it literally cannot heal and the expansive utility is...well, very situational and often unecessary.

    6) Sorcerer. It's Wizard-lite, of course it comes next.

    7) Ranger. I like the Paladin list, but Ranger covers more bases.

    8) Paladin. If it was better than last place, no-one would use their spell slots for smiting. Not to say it doesn't have some gems, but let's face it, it's not that great.

    Controvertial ranking? Perhaps. Call me out if there's something obvious you think I've missed!

    edit: Gave Druid top spot, because Bards are bad summoners.
    Last edited by JellyPooga; 2019-10-12 at 08:06 AM.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2019

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post

    1) Bard. Good mix of all spheres, with minor deficiencies in blasting and area control.

    2) Druid. Surprisingly nice mixed bag, including buffs, debuffs, area control, healing, blasting, melee and summons. Almost gave it top spot.

    3) Cleric. Like Druid but a bit more focused on what it does best; buffs & healz.

    4) Warlock. Another shocker for me and whilst it may seem odd, the fact that it has Conjure Fey on it opens up a lot of potential doors that the Wizard list simply doesn"t have until much higher levels. Other than that, although quite a short list, it's remarkable for what it can do, including some unique spells. This might even be a No.1 pick for a Lore Bard, if given the choice of what list to use, given Magical Secrets on top.

    5) Wizard. I'm looking at it and the more I do, the less potential I'm seeing in it. Especially in the lower tiers of play. Sure, it's a long list and has some very powerful spells...but it's not that versatile. It can blast, buff, debuff and has area control, but its summons are pretty lacklustre until it gets Gate, unless you count Planar Binding (which is both expensive and very GM dependent), it literally cannot heal and the expansive utility is...well, very situational and often unecessary.

    6) Sorcerer. It's Wizard-lite, of course it comes next.

    7) Ranger. I like the Paladin list, but Ranger covers more bases.

    8) Paladin. If it was better than last place, no-one would use their spell slots for smiting. Not to say it doesn't have some gems, but let's face it, it's not that great.
    I like your reasoning here, giving more weight to flexibility. This is how I would probably rank the classes if I were going to be the only caster in a party starting at low levels. As the only caster, I would pick bard or druid. If I were to make a character in a more typical party with one or two other casters, then the OPs rank probably fits my experience better, with wizards and sorcerers access to wish and more area control and defensive spells moving them to the top of the list. Best is of course very subjective. This is a fun conversation.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    You could, of course, ask the same question of every Class; given [chosen class], what spell list would you choose if you could pick any? This isn't the same question as "which spell list is the best?".

    A Bard, for example, benefits from Magical Secrets, making their choice less restrictive and thus making smaller or less versatile lists more attractive; the limitations of the Warlock or Paladin spell list might look a lot more appealing to someone looking for more of those unique or niches spells that those lists offer (setting aside that both the Paladin and Ranger lists only go up to level 5, of course).

    A Wizard or Cleric, on the other hand, who benefit from being able to customise the spells they prepare, is going to want the most diverse and versatile list available to them. Being able to choose one perfect spell for a situation is better than having to choose one spell to fit as many circustances as possible, after all.

    This is what makes the OP somewhat misleading, ambiguous and/or irrelevant. "The best" is not objective because every class/character has differemt criteria for what might be considered "good", but on top of that, it's subjective based on individual character/player style. A Draconic Heritage Sorcerer, for example, is probably going to want a lot more elemental blasting spells on whatever list they consider the best, based on their draconic heritage. That doesn't necessarily make that list any better for the Draconic Heritage Sorcerer with a different draconic heritage, let alone a different Class, Race, Feats or play style.

    Therefore, the only measure we have to judge "the best" is the list that caters to the most different playstyles and characters as possible. This is why I would differ on putting Wizard in the top spot instead of Bard; because while the former might have some of the most powerful individual spells in the game on it, whilst also enjoying many of those downtime utility spells that a "spell known" caster might not be able to afford, this isn't a judgement of individual spells, but of spell lists and the Bard, while certainly a little lacking in certain areas, probably covers the most bases.

    So my advice for anyone interested in this topic is to go back and look not at what amazingly powerful or useful spells are on each list, but to go and have a look at how many different playstyles that list accomodates. I think you may be surprised at what you find. For me, I might rank them roughly;

    1) Bard. Good mix of all spheres, with minor deficiencies in blasting and area control.

    2) Druid. Surprisingly nice mixed bag, including buffs, debuffs, area control, healing, blasting, melee and summons. Almost gave it top spot.

    3) Cleric. Like Druid but a bit more focused on what it does best; buffs & healz.

    4) Warlock. Another shocker for me and whilst it may seem odd, the fact that it has Conjure Fey on it opens up a lot of potential doors that the Wizard list simply doesn"t have until much higher levels. Other than that, although quite a short list, it's remarkable for what it can do, including some unique spells. This might even be a No.1 pick for a Lore Bard, if given the choice of what list to use, given Magical Secrets on top.

    5) Wizard. I'm looking at it and the more I do, the less potential I'm seeing in it. Especially in the lower tiers of play. Sure, it's a long list and has some very powerful spells...but it's not that versatile. It can blast, buff, debuff and has area control, but its summons are pretty lacklustre until it gets Gate, unless you count Planar Binding (which is both expensive and very GM dependent), it literally cannot heal and the expansive utility is...well, very situational and often unecessary.

    6) Sorcerer. It's Wizard-lite, of course it comes next.

    7) Ranger. I like the Paladin list, but Ranger covers more bases.

    8) Paladin. If it was better than last place, no-one would use their spell slots for smiting. Not to say it doesn't have some gems, but let's face it, it's not that great.

    Controvertial ranking? Perhaps. Call me out if there's something obvious you think I've missed!
    You seem to not be accounting for long duration minionmancy. Animate Dead, Simulacrum, etc. are insanely good and definitely better minionmancy than any Concentration summons aside from Pixie Woodland spam perhaps. Mostly because they do stuff without taking your actions and kinda just giving you the ability to take a bunch of extra actions each turn; they kinda naturally enhance any playstyle (starting from Unseen Seer on level 1 to be honest).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2019-10-12 at 08:09 AM.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    You seem to not be accounting for long duration minionmancy. Animate Dead, Simulacrum, etc. are insanely good and definitely better minionmancy than any Concentration summons aside from Pixie Woodland spam perhaps.
    One spell does not a list make, but if you want to talk long-term minions, the Bard and Druid have been recruiting animals from lvl.1 with Speak with Animals and Animal Friendship, not to mention recruitment of allies (though that tends to drift more into the realm of ability scores and proficiencies, more than it does spells). Simulacrum is undoubtably a good spell, but it's also one that come on very very late, if ever, so you'll forgive the lack of weight I give it.

    edit: It's worth noting the capabilities of minions. Skeletons and Zombies (and beasts, granted) might be good for DPR/tanking damage, but not a lot else, whilst a single dryad, for example, brings her own suite of spells to the table. It's why I don't particularly rate Animate Objects that highly compared to other "summons"; it't great for DPR, but very little else.
    Last edited by JellyPooga; 2019-10-12 at 08:20 AM.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    One spell does not a list make, but if you want to talk long-term minions, the Bard and Druid have been recruiting animals from lvl.1 with Speak with Animals and Animal Friendship, not to mention recruitment of allies (though that tends to drift more into the realm of ability scores and proficiencies, more than it does spells). Simulacrum is undoubtably a good spell, but it's also one that come on very very late, if ever, so you'll forgive the lack of weight I give it.

    edit: It's worth noting the capabilities of minions. Skeletons and Zombies (and beasts, granted) might be good for DPR/tanking damage, but not a lot else, whilst a single dryad, for example, brings her own suite of spells to the table. It's why I don't particularly rate Animate Objects that highly compared to other "summons"; it't great for DPR, but very little else.
    They can also take Use Item action and carry things and scout and take defend actions and block enemies spatially and such; they are quite versatile. It's of course not just a single spell; Danse Macabre & Create Undead exist too (though Danse Macabre is more akin to a summon effect having Concentration and only lasting 1 hour) as does Tiny Servant. Also, Planar Binding for some dumb muscle in elementals should be pretty safe. Demons, devils, etc. are another ballpark entirely but that use oughtn't be much of a problem.

    Yeah, Dryads are nice but they're a whole category harder to get and with zero actual control. They're just friends, just like the guys you meet at the tavern, with their own agendas, alignments, etc. Spells that actually create controlled things are a hundred times more reliable and less finnicky; indeed, if Planar Binding is DM-dependent, Animal Friendshipping and charming around is a hundred times more so and less reliable in all cases (what are the probabilities of getting infiltrated by an enemy agent? Of conflict of interest? Not always an issue but always a potential one).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2019-10-12 at 09:49 AM.
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Troll in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    5) Wizard.

    ...

    it literally cannot heal
    This is flat out false. There are clearly healing options for the Wizard, like Life Transference.

    I also find that Wizards are excellent at utilizing healing items like potions, since they can make their Unseen Servant or Familiar or whatever do it. They also are good at generating rests via things like Rope Trick and Leomund's Tiny Hut. And numerous other things besides.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    This is flat out false. There are clearly healing options for the Wizard, like Life Transference.
    It not "clear" at all; never heard of the spell, myself and if that's the case, neither have others. One spell from a non-core book does not make the Wizard a healer. You used a plural, so if you'd care to mention another healing spell on the Wizard list...?

    I also find that Wizards are excellent at utilizing healing items like potions, since they can make their Unseen Servant or Familiar or whatever do it. They also are good at generating rests via things like Rope Trick and Leomund's Tiny Hut. And numerous other things besides.
    I'll grant Rope Trick etc. for rests, but I don't quite buy using healing potions via a familar making the Wizard a healer by any stretch of the imagination.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Troll in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    It not "clear" at all; never heard of the spell

    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2019-10-12 at 02:35 PM. Reason: clean up

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}.
    Does JellyPooga need to add a "PHB Only" disclaimer, then?

    And can you name another spell that heals on the Wizard list? Because missing a single spell, when there's a pretty dang high number of them, doesn't make JellyPooga incompetent, it makes 'em human. We all make mistakes.
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2019-10-12 at 02:36 PM. Reason: scrub the quote
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}.
    Hmm...I read the SRD, PHB and SCaG. Given that I don't own whatever source book that one spell is from, I can hardly be blamed for not knowing of its existence, much as anyone else who doesn't have access to it. Like I said earlier; this entire threeaad is completely subjective and one factor involved is what sources a given player has access to.
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2019-10-12 at 02:37 PM. Reason: scrub the quote
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    Hmm...I read the SRD, PHB and SCaG. Given that I don't own whatever source book that one spell is from, I can hardly be blamed for not knowing of its existence, much as anyone else who doesn't have access to it. Like I said earlier; this entire threeaad is completely subjective and one factor involved is what sources a given player has access to.
    It's from Xanathar's. Basically, level 3 necromancy spell. 4d8 damage to yourself as an action, heal twice that to a single target within 30'. Damage increases by 1d8 per level (which means healing increases by 2d8).

    It'd be pretty baller on an Onion Druid, since they have effectively unlimited HP and the healing is pretty high for the slot, but on a Wizard's squishy butt? Rarely worth it.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Troll in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    Los Angeles

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    We all make mistakes.
    Indeed. However when I have a mistake pointed out to me in no uncertain terms, I go "whoops, seems like that is indeed printed in the book, guess my statement that literally no such thing exists was a bit of a hasty generalization, thanks for correcting me."

    {Scrubbed}

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Indeed. However when I have a mistake pointed out to me in no uncertain terms, I go "whoops, seems like that is indeed printed in the book, guess my statement that literally no such thing exists was a bit of a hasty generalization, thanks for correcting me."

    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    Probably because your tone was (or at least seemed to me, and likely Jelly too) pretty harsh.

    Put nice in, get nice out.
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2019-10-12 at 02:38 PM. Reason: scrub the quote
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    Hmm...I read the SRD, PHB and SCaG. Given that I don't own whatever source book that one spell is from, I can hardly be blamed for not knowing of its existence, much as anyone else who doesn't have access to it. Like I said earlier; this entire threeaad is completely subjective and one factor involved is what sources a given player has access to.
    To be fair, XGtE is pretty much THE resource for non-core character options.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Griffon

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by Swosh View Post
    Rank the different class spell lists from best to worst. Here is mine:

    1. Wizard - Has pretty much all the best spells at all lvls
    2. Sorcerer - Shares many of the best spells with the wizard at most lvls with the exception of 5-8th lvl. Where 7-8th lvl is particularly lackluster.

    3. Bard - Poor cantrips, 1st and 2nd lvl spells. Gets better from 3rd lvl and upwards
    4. Warlock - Poor 1st and 2nd lvl spells. Gets better from 3rd lvl and upwards
    5. Druid - Good low lvl spells. Decent mid-lvl and poor at 7-8th lvl
    6. Cleric - Has few good spells and many bad spells in general. Most of the best spells are at low lvl.

    7. Paladin - Half caster that shares many of the cleric spells. Also have some strong unique Paladin spells.
    8. Ranger - Half caster that shares many of the druid spells. Dosnt have many unique spells.
    What are we comparing?
    - the spells lists as in the PhB / other books?
    - above, but with taken into account that some classes (cleric, druid, paladin) know all of them, some can theoretically know all of them but effectively know fewer (wizard), and others have to make a more or less strict selection (bard, warlock, ranger, sorcerer?)
    - do we rank the versatility of the list, of presense of the most powerful spells?
    - do all tiers count the same (even though 3 and 4 are played much less than 1 and 2)?
    - how do spells from sub classes and features like magical secrets count?

    Questions, questions... cause depending on the answers, you'll get really different answers. Like this, I can't answer the question. I find all classes have on almost every level more good options that I want to take than that I can know of memorize. All have powerful (and mostly also a few unique) options.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Land of Cleves
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    As far as summons go, don't forget that the single best summoning spell in the game is only on the wizard list.

    And yeah, I'll grant that overall, druids are still better at summoning than wizards are. And they're obviously better at healing, given that wizards have almost no healing capability. But everything else that the druid list is good for, the wizard list is better.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Finland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    As far as summons go, don't forget that the single best summoning spell in the game is only on the wizard list.
    What're you counting here?
    Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
    Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
    SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Corran's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Greece
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    What're you counting here?
    Probably simulacrum.
    Last edited by Corran; 2019-10-12 at 06:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    I hereby bestow upon you a magic sword, the Sword of Corran, which will henceforth be the only thing that can permanently destroy my withered undead hand and nose.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Simulacrum is very expensive and, therefore, campaign situational. It's a spell you cannot cast without some level of DM buy-in, which makes it a hard sell as "best summons spell in the game"

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2016

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    You could, of course, ask the same question of every Class; given [chosen class], what spell list would you choose if you could pick any? This isn't the same question as "which spell list is the best?".

    A Bard, for example, benefits from Magical Secrets, making their choice less restrictive and thus making smaller or less versatile lists more attractive; the limitations of the Warlock or Paladin spell list might look a lot more appealing to someone looking for more of those unique or niches spells that those lists offer (setting aside that both the Paladin and Ranger lists only go up to level 5, of course).

    A Wizard or Cleric, on the other hand, who benefit from being able to customise the spells they prepare, is going to want the most diverse and versatile list available to them. Being able to choose one perfect spell for a situation is better than having to choose one spell to fit as many circustances as possible, after all.

    This is what makes the OP somewhat misleading, ambiguous and/or irrelevant. "The best" is not objective because every class/character has differemt criteria for what might be considered "good", but on top of that, it's subjective based on individual character/player style. A Draconic Heritage Sorcerer, for example, is probably going to want a lot more elemental blasting spells on whatever list they consider the best, based on their draconic heritage. That doesn't necessarily make that list any better for the Draconic Heritage Sorcerer with a different draconic heritage, let alone a different Class, Race, Feats or play style.

    Therefore, the only measure we have to judge "the best" is the list that caters to the most different playstyles and characters as possible. This is why I would differ on putting Wizard in the top spot instead of Bard; because while the former might have some of the most powerful individual spells in the game on it, whilst also enjoying many of those downtime utility spells that a "spell known" caster might not be able to afford, this isn't a judgement of individual spells, but of spell lists and the Bard, while certainly a little lacking in certain areas, probably covers the most bases.

    So my advice for anyone interested in this topic is to go back and look not at what amazingly powerful or useful spells are on each list, but to go and have a look at how many different playstyles that list accomodates. I think you may be surprised at what you find. For me, I might rank them roughly;

    1) Druid. Surprisingly nice mixed bag, including buffs, debuffs, area control, healing, blasting, melee and summons.

    2) Bard. Good mix of all spheres, with minor deficiencies in blasting and area control. Lack of summons takes it down a notch from my original judgement.

    3) Cleric. Like Druid but a bit more focused on what it does best; buffs & healz.

    4) Warlock. Another shocker for me and whilst it may seem odd, the fact that it has Conjure Fey on it opens up a lot of potential doors that the Wizard list simply doesn"t have until much higher levels. Other than that, although quite a short list, it's remarkable for what it can do, including some unique spells. This might even be a No.1 pick for a Lore Bard, if given the choice of what list to use, given Magical Secrets on top.

    5) Wizard. I'm looking at it and the more I do, the less potential I'm seeing in it. Especially in the lower tiers of play. Sure, it's a long list and has some very powerful spells...but it's not that versatile. It can blast, buff, debuff and has area control, but its summons are pretty lacklustre until it gets Gate, unless you count Planar Binding (which is both expensive and very GM dependent), it literally cannot heal and the expansive utility is...well, very situational and often unecessary.

    6) Sorcerer. It's Wizard-lite, of course it comes next.

    7) Ranger. I like the Paladin list, but Ranger covers more bases.

    8) Paladin. If it was better than last place, no-one would use their spell slots for smiting. Not to say it doesn't have some gems, but let's face it, it's not that great.

    Controvertial ranking? Perhaps. Call me out if there's something obvious you think I've missed!

    edit: Gave Druid top spot, because Bards are bad summoners.

    I missed out on Conjure Animals at one point but tonight my Bard will have Find Greater Steed, Animate Objects and Conjure Woodland Beings all at her disposal. That feels like a lot of conjuring.

    Don't discount the way some classes can change out their spells though. My Bard feels some pressure when leveling up.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkVIIIMarc View Post
    I missed out on Conjure Animals at one point but tonight my Bard will have Find Greater Steed, Animate Objects and Conjure Woodland Beings all at her disposal. That feels like a lot of conjuring.

    Don't discount the way some classes can change out their spells though. My Bard feels some pressure when leveling up.
    While I agree that the Bard Class has the best access to spells, including any of the "Conjure X" spells you care to take, that isn't what is being discussed here; the Bard spell list itself, taken in isolation from the Bard Class, is actually pretty bad for summons.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2018

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Wizard and Druid are the two most diverse lists.

    Bard is extremely powerful and versatile, but restricts you to more indirect methods for accomplishing things.

    Sorcerer is OK, but Wizard is clearly better. Are there any important Sorcerer spells not on the Wizard list? Enhance Ability is the only one that comes to mind.

    Warlock and Cleric are clearly the smallest and least diverse—both are restrictive enough that your bonus subclass spells will form a significant chunk of your identity as a caster. That doesn’t mean they’re bad, but they generally rely more on support from class features to support their spellcasting.

    Nobody would play a Wizard chassis with the Cleric spell list, and plenty of people would play a Cleric who used the Wizard spell list. Even so, a Cleric using the Cleric list can still do many things a Cleric with the Wizard list can’t, so a regular cleric would still be playable.

    On the other hand, a cleric swapping in the Druid list and a Druid with the Cleric list are both playable. A Moon Druid with Spirit Guardians would be awesome, and a Light Cleric with Moonbeam and Sunbeam would be great too.

    If you look at it this way, the Sorcerer list is probably the worst. No one would ever take it over the Wizard list, whereas all of the other lists have at least a few signature spells.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Nov 2016

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    While I agree that the Bard Class has the best access to spells, including any of the "Conjure X" spells you care to take, that isn't what is being discussed here; the Bard spell list itself, taken in isolation from the Bard Class, is actually pretty bad for summons.
    Interesting. I will agree with you 100% under those restrictions. The Bard list seems made to fight beings with high armor class then by targeting their saves.

    I guess w/o class features who loses the most strength? Bards w/o Magical Secrets? The Warlock list w/o Invocations? Sorcerers w/o subtles or quickens?

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Land of Cleves
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Nah, Simulacrum is great... once you get it. Which most wizard players never will. The best summon spell in the entire game is one that remains useful and relevant for your entire career. I'm referring, of course, to Find Familiar.
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkVIIIMarc View Post
    Interesting. I will agree with you 100% under those restrictions. The Bard list seems made to fight beings with high armor class then by targeting their saves.

    I guess w/o class features who loses the most strength? Bards w/o Magical Secrets? The Warlock list w/o Invocations? Sorcerers w/o subtles or quickens?
    The Bard list w/o MS is still pretty strong. I still rank it No.2 on my list for its sheer versatility. Yes, it lacks somewhat in the combat department, but (and this is just my opinion) if you're wasting your arcane might on something that any meatbag with a pointy stick can do, then why did you even bother learning magic?

    Warlocks lose a lot if they don't have their Invocations and Pact features. Their list is still pretty strong (surprisingly), but isn't too versatile until you can start summoning mooks to branch out.

    Sorcerers really don't lose an awful lot if they lose their class features. Their list is what it is.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
    Nah, Simulacrum is great... once you get it. Which most wizard players never will. The best summon spell in the entire game is one that remains useful and relevant for your entire career. I'm referring, of course, to Find Familiar.
    Find Familiar is a great spell. But when it's accessed by anyone through 2 different feats, and Warlocks can get better ones as a class feature, it's hard to say they are a Wizard exclusive spell.

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2019

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Find Familiar is a great spell. But when it's accessed by anyone through 2 different feats, and Warlocks can get better ones as a class feature, it's hard to say they are a Wizard exclusive spell.
    Except this discussion is about spell lists, not classes. The only way to get find familiar is to access the wizard list or take Pact of the Chain warlock, but that's a class feature not on the warlock spell list.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2013

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    The 2 best conjuring spells are actually in the Paladin list ;) (though bards get the most mileage out of them)
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-10-13 at 08:48 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    The Land of Cleves
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Spell list - Ranking

    OK, I could maybe see the argument that Find [Greater] Steed is better than Find Familiar. But I don't think anyone would say that those two spells make the paladin a good summoner, and they certainly don't mean that the paladin has a "good spell list".
    Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
    As You Like It, III:ii:328

    Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
    Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •