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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Artificer? Low operations

    So from what I'm seeing, there's not a strong incentive to go beyond level 3 in this class, like the warlock. Is wizard really the way to go? This isnt a ddal character but some of the basic rules like multi classing is still in effect. Just asking for opinions.
    Last edited by HolyDraconus; 2019-10-12 at 01:19 PM.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Artificer? Low operations

    Depends on what you are looking for. Artificer 3 (especially with the round up multiclassing rule) is a very nice dip for wizards. That said, Artificer 5 gives you a second attack if you are going for a gish build and Artificer 6 yields an additional infusion and a subclass feature. I agree that the class kind of drops off after this point, but I think 3-6 are all viable.

    3: subclass comes online
    4: asi
    5: arcane armament
    6: infusion and subclass feature

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Artificer? Low operations

    Artificer is pretty solid up until level 7 (a completely dead level), you progress nicely with infusions spells and subclass features up until that point though and can drop off into a Wizard school of your choice 7 onwards with no real downside.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Artificer? Low operations

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Artificer is pretty solid up until level 7 (a completely dead level), you progress nicely with infusions spells and subclass features up until that point though and can drop off into a Wizard school of your choice 7 onwards with no real downside.
    I really with Artificers for Use Magic Item at level 7. It still bothers me they don't have it. I hope they get it in the final printing.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Artificer? Low operations

    I'd actually disagree strongly about there being little reason to progress beyond artificer 3 or 6. the infuse item feature is actually a bit insane once you get to 12th level as you get access to ability score substitution items (granted with the artificer as printed in the may UA at least). this means the artificer has the greatest capacity for basically ignoring ASIs and investing them into feats.

    for example the build I've arrived on for point buy is standard human with point buy. the array that you get is 11, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14 which gives +2 to five ability scores which is sufficient to get by without too much trouble in nearly every situation. at 1st level you just have to get by as is, however at 2nd level the infuse item feature becomes available and you can start to indirectly affect your ability scores through enhancement bonuses to weapons and armour. thus, despite having +2 in nearly everything, based weapon attacks are functioning as though they were 16 dexterity (+3).

    at 4th level, you gain medium armour master to prepare for 8th level +2 to dex ASI and to get the most value out of medium armour and get rid of disadvantage on stealth checks.

    at 8th level, you add +2 to dex score bringing it to +3. your dex weapons however are functioning as though they were +4 to hit and your AC is 19 at the minimum, more if you add a shield.

    at 12th level, you get access to ability score substitution items such as gauntlets of ogre strength and headband of Intelligence (19, +4 to str or int) (the second is particularly useful to a battle smith for obvious reasons). furthermore, your AC increases by 1, your enhanced weapon increases by 1 and you also get a feat (great weapon master or sharpshooter are excellent choices)

    at 16th level, you get access to the amulet of health (19, +4 con mod) and the belt of hill giant strength (21, +5 str mod). you also get yet another feat/ASI to use however you wish. from here on, there isn't any more specific recommendations however it should be noted that at 20th level the artificer gets a bonus to ALL saving throws equal to the number of magic items they are attuned to as well as becoming able to attune to six rather than the normal three magic items.

    at 20th level the artificer has at a minimum just from infuse item, three items that require attunement. that's +3 to all saving throws. that's half proficiency in all saving throws, and granted they can't do what the paladin does for the party with their aura of +cha to saving throws they are still frighteningly potent and worthwhile at 20th level.

    on that note, I'll just leave it on a shower thought; intelligence the one of most dumped ability scores in the game can be safely dumped by an intelligence based class.

    also if this all looks like gobledy-goop, sorry

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Artificer? Low operations

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    I really with Artificers for Use Magic Item at level 7. It still bothers me they don't have it. I hope they get it in the final printing.
    It would certainly make sense, I hope that they break up the additional attunement slots over the levels to help pacing as well. I miss the first version's Alchemist, it felt fun and different.
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Artificer? Low operations

    Quote Originally Posted by Thellton View Post
    I'd actually disagree strongly about there being little reason to progress beyond artificer 3 or 6. the infuse item feature is actually a bit insane once you get to 12th level as you get access to ability score substitution items (granted with the artificer as printed in the may UA at least). this means the artificer has the greatest capacity for basically ignoring ASIs and investing them into feats.

    for example the build I've arrived on for point buy is standard human with point buy. the array that you get is 11, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14 which gives +2 to five ability scores which is sufficient to get by without too much trouble in nearly every situation. at 1st level you just have to get by as is, however at 2nd level the infuse item feature becomes available and you can start to indirectly affect your ability scores through enhancement bonuses to weapons and armour. thus, despite having +2 in nearly everything, based weapon attacks are functioning as though they were 16 dexterity (+3).

    at 4th level, you gain medium armour master to prepare for 8th level +2 to dex ASI and to get the most value out of medium armour and get rid of disadvantage on stealth checks.

    at 8th level, you add +2 to dex score bringing it to +3. your dex weapons however are functioning as though they were +4 to hit and your AC is 19 at the minimum, more if you add a shield.

    at 12th level, you get access to ability score substitution items such as gauntlets of ogre strength and headband of Intelligence (19, +4 to str or int) (the second is particularly useful to a battle smith for obvious reasons). furthermore, your AC increases by 1, your enhanced weapon increases by 1 and you also get a feat (great weapon master or sharpshooter are excellent choices)

    at 16th level, you get access to the amulet of health (19, +4 con mod) and the belt of hill giant strength (21, +5 str mod). you also get yet another feat/ASI to use however you wish. from here on, there isn't any more specific recommendations however it should be noted that at 20th level the artificer gets a bonus to ALL saving throws equal to the number of magic items they are attuned to as well as becoming able to attune to six rather than the normal three magic items.

    at 20th level the artificer has at a minimum just from infuse item, three items that require attunement. that's +3 to all saving throws. that's half proficiency in all saving throws, and granted they can't do what the paladin does for the party with their aura of +cha to saving throws they are still frighteningly potent and worthwhile at 20th level.

    on that note, I'll just leave it on a shower thought; intelligence the one of most dumped ability scores in the game can be safely dumped by an intelligence based class.

    also if this all looks like gobledy-goop, sorry
    Whilst you could do this, you would be behind the normal curve and those items wouldn't even max your stats. You would be spending a lot of your infusions for non maxed stats to be a jack of all trades. If you want to be a weapon user then you could comfortably just take Battlesmith and max your int for whatever style of weapon you'd like to use (PAM, GWM, SS etc.).

    I just don't see any real benefit by taking this kind of generalist approach vs a non item dependent build.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: Artificer? Low operations

    Quote Originally Posted by Thellton View Post
    I'd actually disagree strongly about there being little reason to progress beyond artificer 3 or 6. the infuse item feature is actually a bit insane once you get to 12th level as you get access to ability score substitution items (granted with the artificer as printed in the may UA at least). this means the artificer has the greatest capacity for basically ignoring ASIs and investing them into feats.

    for example the build I've arrived on for point buy is standard human with point buy. the array that you get is 11, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14 which gives +2 to five ability scores which is sufficient to get by without too much trouble in nearly every situation. at 1st level you just have to get by as is, however at 2nd level the infuse item feature becomes available and you can start to indirectly affect your ability scores through enhancement bonuses to weapons and armour. thus, despite having +2 in nearly everything, based weapon attacks are functioning as though they were 16 dexterity (+3).

    at 4th level, you gain medium armour master to prepare for 8th level +2 to dex ASI and to get the most value out of medium armour and get rid of disadvantage on stealth checks.

    at 8th level, you add +2 to dex score bringing it to +3. your dex weapons however are functioning as though they were +4 to hit and your AC is 19 at the minimum, more if you add a shield.

    at 12th level, you get access to ability score substitution items such as gauntlets of ogre strength and headband of Intelligence (19, +4 to str or int) (the second is particularly useful to a battle smith for obvious reasons). furthermore, your AC increases by 1, your enhanced weapon increases by 1 and you also get a feat (great weapon master or sharpshooter are excellent choices)

    at 16th level, you get access to the amulet of health (19, +4 con mod) and the belt of hill giant strength (21, +5 str mod). you also get yet another feat/ASI to use however you wish. from here on, there isn't any more specific recommendations however it should be noted that at 20th level the artificer gets a bonus to ALL saving throws equal to the number of magic items they are attuned to as well as becoming able to attune to six rather than the normal three magic items.

    at 20th level the artificer has at a minimum just from infuse item, three items that require attunement. that's +3 to all saving throws. that's half proficiency in all saving throws, and granted they can't do what the paladin does for the party with their aura of +cha to saving throws they are still frighteningly potent and worthwhile at 20th level.

    on that note, I'll just leave it on a shower thought; intelligence the one of most dumped ability scores in the game can be safely dumped by an intelligence based class.

    also if this all looks like gobledy-goop, sorry
    Its not gobledy-goop, and I enjoy your enthusiasm. Thank you for that. I'm just gonna throw some things in it though.
    Its all well and good that you found what you believe is a good setup, but here's the thing. It ultimately doesn't work, or doesn't stand up to what's available at the points needed. Here's what I mean.
    1st to 6th lets ignore for now, but I will revisit it.

    One of the points that you mentioned as a turning point was level 8. If you went VARIANT human, you may have at that point three feats, but that doesn't support the class, that's just what the race does, so it should not be a factor in the slightest. Tossing that aside, you mentioned using an ASI on a stat improvement. Dex, in particular. Also in your example, the character did NOT start off with a 16 to ANY score. So at level 8, you are just getting to +3 in a stat. That's it. Which, shouldn't even be a point for the class since EVERY class gets an ASI at 8. But at level 8, what is the Artificer doing? Well lets compare them to the other classes. The Paladin at level 8 ALREADY has half your capstone, has better hp, better AC ( usually) generally has stronger spells, and is directly changing the course of battle, either through Lay on Hands, or their Channel Divinity, without having to dip into their spells. The Fighter? Well, they're rocking 3 ASI at that point, with the better AC (usually) and Hp, again. While they are lacking spell slots (usually) they usually have options from subclasses that lets them DO what they are named to do. But right now, the Artificer is .... fighting the Fighter in terms of usability. Wizard? 4th level spells? More cantrips? FAR more utility from subclasses? That's not even fair. Artificer can't even claim to have more AC cause the Wizard can have enough shenanigans to make it not matter.


    And that's at 8. In most campaigns, that's either the start of the end, or near it. This class, in your own words, doesn't even come online till 12th. You know what level the current book Avernus is expected to end by? 13th. In other words, there are entire campaigns where the class is just.. there. And when it finally does show up, the campaign is usually over. Why would anyone wait for that? Of course, I'm of the school of thought that campaigns should go farther but I understand why a lot of campaign writers stop where they do. But when it does come online it gets.... the ability to wear a magic item... which.. in DDAL, you probably already traded for several levels if not tiers ago..

    The problem with the Artificer is that it just doesn't really have any options that directly impact the world around them, both beneficially or detrimentally ( for their foes). Their subclasses add an extra leg, but now we are talking two legs on a table, and that isn't enough for it to stand on. It honestly suffers from the same thing that I've seen from warlock dips: they are front loaded and their later game features usually isn't strong enough on their own to merit a solo play through. I've seen and understand single class Fighters and Barbarians, Druids and Rogues, and even Wizards and Clerics. I seen heavy dips into Sorcerers and Warlocks and even Bards. I don't see either benefiting the Artificer as it currently stands. If it gets buffed (personally I feel infusions should be expanded dramatically for such a class dependent on them without any other ability of note) I will revisit my opinion. The class has flavor, but no substance.

    1st to 6th level is when the Artificer shines. They get their shiny abilities. They can use their new toys. They are an equal member of the party. After that point though, they fall way too hard to justify continuing.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Artificer? Low operations

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    So from what I'm seeing, there's not a strong incentive to go beyond level 3 in this class, like the warlock. Is wizard really the way to go? This isnt a ddal character but some of the basic rules like multi classing is still in effect. Just asking for opinions.
    Same could be said about half if the classes. Most of them are loaded until lv 6-7 then drop off until much to late to matter. Saying that I think the flavor of artificer is powerful enough to keep interest . We will see what the final form is hopefully before the release of the book.
    Let's hope it's no another spore druid.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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