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Thread: Gemini Man

  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    This isn't a Mega Man thread. I thought you read my thread already.
    You must be thinking of Magic (no underscore) Hat.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Got to go thanks to a friend of mine who works at the theater... And I'm really glad I didn't have to pay full price...

    The movie is... Well... boring. The CGI effects were pretty good, one or two actions scenes were decent, but the movie really drags on and some dialogue that makes it clear the producers think the audience is really freaking stupid. To make things worse, I simply couldn't care about the plot or any of the characters.

    Not even double Will Smith could give it any heart or appeal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Got to go thanks to a friend of mine who works at the theater... And I'm really glad I didn't have to pay full price...

    The movie is... Well... boring. The CGI effects were pretty good, one or two actions scenes were decent, but the movie really drags on and some dialogue that makes it clear the producers think the audience is really freaking stupid. To make things worse, I simply couldn't care about the plot or any of the characters.

    Not even double Will Smith could give it any heart or appeal.
    The use if deep fake tech on actors bothers me. An I going to end up watching a new Jimmy Stewart film in a few years? Will they resurrect Robin Williams?

    Will Smith at least is alive, but will they ket hin die or are they going to keep making Will Smith B movies my entire life?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The use if deep fake tech on actors bothers me. An I going to end up watching a new Jimmy Stewart film in a few years? Will they resurrect Robin Williams?

    Will Smith at least is alive, but will they ket hin die or are they going to keep making Will Smith B movies my entire life?
    And that is the million question. I've ben told that the movie was a marvel for such.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The use if deep fake tech on actors bothers me. An I going to end up watching a new Jimmy Stewart film in a few years? Will they resurrect Robin Williams?

    Will Smith at least is alive, but will they ket hin die or are they going to keep making Will Smith B movies my entire life?
    More importantly... Does it even matter? Acting might just be yet addition to the long list of human occupations overtaken by machines. And while I'm sure there'll be resistance to it, I doubt it can do more than delay that for a few years, maybe decades.

    Honestly, I doubt there'll be much left for humans to do in the next 100 years or so, even if we manage to not kill ourselves.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    More importantly... Does it even matter? Acting might just be yet addition to the long list of human occupations overtaken by machines. And while I'm sure there'll be resistance to it, I doubt it can do more than delay that for a few years, maybe decades.

    Honestly, I doubt there'll be much left for humans to do in the next 100 years or so, even if we manage to not kill ourselves.
    I already boycott self-checkout stores, this just goes on the list of things I won't go to I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I already boycott self-checkout stores, this just goes on the list of things I won't go to I guess.
    Would you not watch an animated movies that doesn't have voice actors?
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-10-14 at 11:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Would you not watch an animated movies that doesn't have voice actors?
    It's taking a lot of willpower to not go on my "studios using live-action actors to screw over voice actors" rant here.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It's taking a lot of willpower to not go on my "studios using live-action actors to screw over voice actors" rant here.
    Believe me, I understand and agree.

    My point is just that (at least IMO) studios using CGI and artificial voices in place of actors is pretty much inevitable. It's still going to be decades from now, in any case. The last time they floated the idea of "virtual actors", the movie (Final Fantasy - Spirits Within) flopped so hard they completely gave up on the idea.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-10-15 at 12:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Would you not watch an animated movies that doesn't have voice actors?
    No, I wouldn't. It is quite literally no longer art at that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    No, I wouldn't. It is quite literally no longer art at that point.
    I disagree. By that logic, silent animated films wouldn't be art.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I disagree. By that logic, silent animated films wouldn't be art.
    Depends on if a computer animated them or not. Art is literally defined by being made by a human. Eventually smart AI will be better writers then humans as well, but if I am alive at that point I won't read those books.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Depends on if a computer animated them or not. Art is literally defined by being made by a human. Eventually smart AI will be better writers then humans as well, but if I am alive at that point I won't read those books.
    Imagine a person takes a picture of a beautiful sunset. The person pressed a button, a machine and nature did everything else. Is that art? What separates that button press from someone pressing a button for a voice?
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Imagine a person takes a picture of a beautiful sunset. The person pressed a button, a machine and nature did everything else. Is that art? What separates that button press from someone pressing a button for a voice?
    It isn't art, just like picking up a pretty rock and taking it home isn't art. A painting of the same thing would be art, just like a self portrait is art but a selfie isn't.

    These are opinions, of course. Everyone is free to disagree with me.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-10-15 at 10:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Gemini Man

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The use if deep fake tech on actors bothers me. An I going to end up watching a new Jimmy Stewart film in a few years? Will they resurrect Robin Williams?

    Will Smith at least is alive, but will they ket hin die or are they going to keep making Will Smith B movies my entire life?
    Rogue One used the concept of "digital makeup"; Guy Henry got the credit for the performance (Peter Cushing got a thanks). For that matter, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow had a performance by Sir Lawrence Olivier 15 years after he passed away! They've been playing with that concept for a while now, but at the end of the day, it's just another creative tool that could be used for good or ill, depending on the film.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    It isn't art, just like picking up a pretty rock and taking it home isn't art. A painting of the same thing would be art, just like a self portrait is art but a selfie isn't.
    Why? The person recognized the beauty in the sunset and use tools to create an image of it. If someone painted that same sunset, it would be the same; the painter recognized the beauty in the sunset and use tools to create an image of it. Is one art and one not art because of how efficient those tools were? What's the meaningful difference?
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Why? The person recognized the beauty in the sunset and use tools to create an image of it. If someone painted that same sunset, it would be the same; the painter recognized the beauty in the sunset and use tools to create an image of it. Is one art and one not art because of how efficient those tools were? What's the meaningful difference?
    It gets into the fundamental question of art. Art is the narrowing of reality to convey the artists ideas and emotions to the viewer, and the viewer in turn projects ideas and emotions onto art.

    If the photo is framed properly to show how the artist felt or what they were thinking about it can be art, but simple depiction of reality isn't. A photo taken by a depressed person takes on less of the depression then a painting of the same thing, you might not even notice their mood while the painting will be inherently shaded by their sadness.

    Machines don't have subjective worldviews or emotions to share, they cannot make art. A director could presumably make all CGI movies that are his/her art, but I'm not particularly attached to any directors. I go to see actors (especially Daniel Day Lewis.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    It gets into the fundamental question of art. Art is the narrowing of reality to convey the artists ideas and emotions to the viewer, and the viewer in turn projects ideas and emotions onto art.

    If the photo is framed properly to show how the artist felt or what they were thinking about it can be art, but simple depiction of reality isn't. A photo taken by a depressed person takes on less of the depression then a painting of the same thing, you might not even notice their mood while the painting will be inherently shaded by their sadness.

    Machines don't have subjective worldviews or emotions to share, they cannot make art. A director could presumably make all CGI movies that are his/her art, but I'm not particularly attached to any directors. I go to see actors (especially Daniel Day Lewis.)
    According to your definition, no animated movie can be considered art. Am I getting this right? Because frankly that sounds absurd.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Mattys View Post
    According to your definition, no animated movie can be considered art. Am I getting this right? Because frankly that sounds absurd.
    I never said that? People make the animations and do the voice acting.

    Once computers do all that, then yeah. It is no different then a rock made by erosion looking like a person. There isn't some perfect line drawn between art and not-art, it is arbitrary. Even governments have shrugged at that problem. But I draw the line at computer generated actors and voices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    If the photo is framed properly to show how the artist felt or what they were thinking about it can be art, but simple depiction of reality isn't. A photo taken by a depressed person takes on less of the depression then a painting of the same thing, you might not even notice their mood while the painting will be inherently shaded by their sadness.
    If a sufficiently advanced robot created a perfect representation of Starry Night Over the Rhône and you were presented with the original and the recreation but were not told which was which, could you tell me which was was art and which one wasn't?
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If a sufficiently advanced robot created a perfect representation of Starry Night Over the Rhône and you were presented with the original and the recreation but were not told which was which, could you tell me which was was art and which one wasn't?
    Nope. I also won't be able to tell you whether a person online is a human or an AI within my lifetime. The ability to imitate human responses doesn't make one human, and the ability to imitate human art does not make it art.

    Get me an AI that can feel and I will reconsider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Nope. I also won't be able to tell you whether a person online is a human or an AI within my lifetime. The ability to imitate human responses doesn't make one human, and the ability to imitate human art does not make it art.
    But if you can't tell if something is art, then what distinguishes it from actual art?

    If you saw a movie and learned after the fact that it was entirely made by robots, would you not have thought it was art when it was presented to you?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-10-15 at 12:40 PM.
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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    But if you can't tell if something is art, then what distinguishes it from actual art?
    Same thing that distinguishes hallucinations from reality.

    Art is the same kind of lie Terry Prachett talks about. It is in the same category as truth, equality, hope, etc. I won't spend my money on things that put artists out if business if I can help it, and knowing a machine made something robs it off meaning for me.

    Edit: If I found out afterwards I would be angry they did not tell me up front so I could choose not to spend my time and money on it.

    That I can be wrong does not repudiate my argument. I can be wrong morally by inadequately applying moral principles and those principles still be correct.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-10-15 at 12:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Same thing that distinguishes hallucinations from reality.
    Reality is not fungible with hallucinations. The robot movie is fungible with the same movie made by people.
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Reality is not fungible with hallucinations. The robot movie is fungible with the same movie made by people.
    If I got stuck in the Matrix, that still doesn't make it real. My lack of adquate perception does not make illusion real.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    If I got stuck in the Matrix, that still doesn't make it real. My lack of adquate perception does not make illusion real.
    If you cannot adequately perceive it, then does it really matter? What's the difference between a red ball and a green ball to a colorblind dog?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Same thing that distinguishes hallucinations from reality.

    Art is the same kind of lie Terry Prachett talks about. It is in the same category as truth, equality, hope, etc. I won't spend my money on things that put artists out if business if I can help it, and knowing a machine made something robs it off meaning for me.

    Edit: If I found out afterwards I would be angry they did not tell me up front so I could choose not to spend my time and money on it.

    That I can be wrong does not repudiate my argument. I can be wrong morally by inadequately applying moral principles and those principles still be correct.
    See, it seems that what's important for you is intent.
    But that's the thing: a robot will never (let that "never" pass for the sake of the argument, please) create a movie just because it feels like it. Humans do. Humans have intent, and they apply that intent by arranging and directing tools. A movie is made by many contributors, and yes, in the case of 100% cgi the "actors" will not be one of them. They will be replaced by animators though. The movie will still need a screenplay, a direction, and a message it tries to convey. The tools by which the final product is assembled might be human (and contribute to the artistic value, sometimes critically so like in bad movies saved by great actors) or non-humans, in which case the burden of creating something artistic lies on the shoulders of writers, composers, animators, the director, and what have you.
    Both ways can produce art, though, because the intent is human in both cases.

    EDIT: if it boils down to "it bothers me because new tools might make actors obsolete", then you have the right to think that way (even if that sounds awfully similar to "tv will kill books" bogus to me), but if you are trying to make a statement about what's art and what's not, I really struggle to see your point.
    Last edited by Jan Mattys; 2019-10-15 at 01:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If you cannot adequately perceive it, then does it really matter? What's the difference between a red ball and a green ball to a colorblind dog?
    The red ball employs thousands of artists and the green ball employs AI slaves. The artist matters.

    Edit: On intent. The relationship between ne and the artist is important. A kid making bad art for their parents is cherished for their relationship, I have watched and supported actors and musicians my whole life and so I have a weak relationship. I have none with machines.

    There is also how many people's intent it is. Cutting out traditional arts and crafts pushes those people into less fulfilling jobs and so makes our society worse. Hiring less people spreads money around less and so makes our society worse. Treating machines as stand ins for humans cheapens our humanity and so makes society worse.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2019-10-15 at 01:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Mattys View Post
    But that's the thing: a robot will never (let that "never" pass for the sake of the argument, please)
    Spoiler: Me, reading that sentence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    The red ball employs thousands of artists and the green ball employs AI slaves. The artist matters.

    Edit: On intent. The relationship between ne and the artist is important. A kid making bad art for their parents is cherished for their relationship, I have watched and supported actors and musicians my whole life and so I have a weak relationship. I have none with machines.

    There is also how many people's intent it is. Cutting out traditional arts and crafts pushes those people into less fulfilling jobs and so makes our society worse. Hiring less people spreads money around less and so makes our society worse. Treating machines as stand ins for humans cheapens our humanity and so makes society worse.
    My opinion on your last paragraph:
    People didnt stop sculpting or painting just because photography was invented. People didn't stop writing stuff just because tv was invented. New tools create new jobs. Societies never get better or worse, they just evolve. Often cyclically so.
    But that's the last mile I am going on this path because it would a) quickly become something not appropriate for these forums and b) turn into the most gigantic takeover of a thread ever.
    Last edited by Jan Mattys; 2019-10-15 at 01:09 PM.

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