The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
    Improvisation gives bonuses 4 times per casting.

    You need skill investment to be good at things, yes - but you get skills. You get enough skills and spells to be relevant and useful at pretty much every role in a party. Improvisation gives you four bonuses, not two.
    I did bad math. If x=caster level 2x does not equal 2(.5◊). It does, in fact, equal 4(.5◊). Whoops lol, so still a spell every 4 skill checks is distinctly less good than +8 or +10 without any investment on a wide range of skills.

    And every incarnate can do the things you mentioned, but not every day. You have to pick which soulmelds you shape each day, too - and even if you get to reshape a couple, and you have several, you still can't change your chakras or your expanded soulmeld capacity choice.
    Sure, not every day, but the next day it can. And you're unlikely to pick soulmelds that cover things already covered by other party members which leads in to the next couple of points.

    The bard interacts with magic items more positively than the Incarnate. Yes, you can get UMD, but you need to shape it every day if you want to invest into items, which is a non insignifiant cost. It also permanently eats your Brow chakra. Bards don't have to roll for their stuff, but more importantly they can use items in ways an Incarnate can't, because they benefit from items like Runestaffs which actually require you to be a spellcaster in the first place. Their spell list is also very good and well supported in supplements.

    This is a discussion of the classes alone, but it's also a discussion of how they fit into the D&D game. The standard premise of the D&D game is that you are a member of a party of characters, not that you're a solo character.
    You're right, bards do interact (marginally) better with magic items, but to do all the things they do NEED them. An incarnate needs 8 hours to completely change gears. Also, you're also right, this isn't a single player game. In the party, the incarnate can flex to fit any missing role with above average proficiency, yet still maintain that flexibility from day to day.

    Incarnate defenses still amount to numbers most of the time. They have a solid amount of SR, which is handy, and they can resist everything somewhat, but they are still restricted to mitigating enemy action rather than ignoring it, which is just categorically weaker in 3.5.
    Uhm... miss chance 24/7 is categorically in the "ignoring" damage camp as is DR and SR. Though, in what way does th eff bard ignore damage? Is it another permanent spell know choice or is it perhaps a magic item that an incarnate can use too?

    'Not completely worthless' doesn't mean 'Average'.
    Being slightly worse than a character dedicating lots of resources when you've invested little or none is not what I would call below average. Additional optimization can be done and the blank slate incarnate has the build resources to do so. I've been using an incarnate with only one feat selected as my subject of comparison. No skill points invested, no wealth spent, etc. Day to day resources are renewable, just like for wizards, druids, and clerics. Not arguing incarnates are T1, because that's a no beainer (of course they are, this T3 discussing is laughable... just kidding, hope that read as sarcastic).

  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    Quote Originally Posted by Buufreak View Post
    Would you be kind enough to cite that? I just reread the definitions, as well as the over arching purpose and explanation of the tiers, and I didn't find anything that says being the top of class in a tier group necessitates being in the next higher tier. Because, let's be honest, that thought pattern is cyclical and backward, don't you think? If something is at the top of its class, which justifies moving up, then it is now at the bottom of the next. Meanwhile, what was once second dog is now the top, which means it then, too, gets to move up. See the problem?
    The point is a class only needs to be as good as or better than the classes below it, and as bad as or worse than the classes below it. "It's better than every single T4 class" is a perfectly good reason to put a class in T3. "It's worse than every single T3 class" is also a perfectly good reason to put a class in T4. When both statements are true, that's where we get our borderline cases.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    Though I already voted in the original threads, there's 2 classes I'd like to argue about again: the Urban Druid and the Wilder

    First, I did the urban druid hanbook which you can find here

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...Druid-Handbook

    and I'd like to point out a few things about it

    The Urban Druid's spell list is truly excellent (even without sanctified spells) and should warrant a tier 1 status right off the bat IMO

    Just compare the Death Master's list to the Urban Druid's, the Urban Druid has something better to cast at just any level
    Now add the wildshape features and the fact that you can cast in some armors
    On top of it you get a fairly powerful pet

    As for the wilder, the issue is not so much the class features, honestly wilder class features are rather terrible except for the d6 hitpoint, x4 skillpoints and CHA based manifesting.

    No the ability comes from the powers

    Since powers augment super well, you have far more versatility with a single power than any vancian caster has with a low level spell

    astral construct is essentially summon monster 1-9 in 1 spell
    dominate and or Charm person is similarly versatile (you can augment it to affect a specific type of creature while boosting it's DC while a spell needs to be the adequate spell for every situation)
    And a single blasting power can cover all your blasting needs
    Finally the dispel power covers all your counterspelling requirements and metamorphosis covers all your other basics

    Is your power list limited? Absolutely
    Are your powers awesome anyway? Absolutely

    If you compare a sorcerer to a wilder
    Same casting stat
    Better hitpoints
    Better skillpoints
    Less powers that do more
    Ability to cast in armor with shield
    Better BAB
    Better combat abilities


    Now compare the spellcasting:

    Delayed spellcasting is not much of an issue due to augmentable powers, your best powers are mostly lower level anyway

    Good lower level spells in the vancian system largely become irrelevant at some point. Some spells will maintain a niche status of usefulness but, once they're at that point, magic items often replace them altogether. So while the sorcerer looks more versatile on paper, he's actually not as good in reality

    Good Psionic powers, on the other hand, are always relevant. Astral construct is just as useful at the earlier levels than it is at later levels. Metamorphosis, Charm and Dominate remains useful throughout the game too.

    Finally being able to break the manifester level early is extremely useful with certain powers: Charm is an ok power at 1 PP
    but once you reach 5 PP you can make it last 1 day per caster level.

    So a level 3 wilder can augment it to 5 (using a surge) and Charm a character for 3 days and, due to the increased PP the DC of the power goes up by 2.

    Try to do something like that with a sorcerer.

    Sure, you might get unlucky on your surge but you're probably outside combat anyway so it doesn't matter. Any NPC you encounter by level 3 becomes a potential permanent ally that you only need to brainwash every 3 days.

    In the same vein, your astral constructs are both stronger and more durable than any similar summon monster spell cast by a sorcerer.

    Can a wilder break the game? Definitely
    Does a wilder have multiple ways to break the game? Defintely

    The only true advantage a sorcerer has over a wilder is that he has more splat support but, unlike a wilder that uses expanded knowledge, he has no core way to cherry pick the best spells or powers from other classes.

    Finally that 3/4 BAB and d6 hitpoint seems irrelevant until you start using metamorphosis

    So, all in all, a wilder is

    a thing (that could be a bear) through metamorphosis
    that summons a thing (again, you could shape it like a bear) through astral construct
    while riding a thing (psicrystals can get insane through metamorphosis)
    after sending another thing (whatever you charmed or dominated) ahead

    I don't see how that's tier 3

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    The Urban Druid's spell list is truly excellent (even without sanctified spells) and should warrant a tier 1 status right off the bat IMO

    ...

    So, all in all, a wilder is

    a thing (that could be a bear) through metamorphosis
    that summons a thing (again, you could shape it like a bear) through astral construct
    while riding a thing (psicrystals can get insane through metamorphosis)
    after sending another thing (whatever you charmed or dominated) ahead

    I don't see how that's tier 3
    If you look at my boundaries using 5/6 steps instead of 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, and 5.5 as boundaries, but 1.83, 2.66, 3.5, 4.33, and 5.16 as the boundaries instead, then ...
    Urban Druid is the weakest Tier 1.
    Wilder is the weakest Tier 2.

    Tier 1

    Cleric: 1
    Druid: 1
    Shaíir: 1
    Shaman: 1.03
    Archivist: 1.06
    Wizard: 1.11
    Artificer: 1.18
    Wu Jen: 1.19
    Spontaneous Druid: 1.31
    Death Master: 1.55
    Generic Spellcaster: 1.66
    Spontaneous Cleric: 1.74
    Erudite: 1.78
    Psion: 1.78
    Sorcerer: 1.8
    Urban Druid: 1.83

    Tier 2

    Spirit Shaman: 1.87
    Evangelist: 1.88
    Mystic: 2
    Ardent: 2.2
    Dread Necromancer: 2.2
    Beguiler: 2.22
    Favored Soul: 2.24
    Mystic Ranger: 2.51
    Wilder: 2.63

    Tier 3

    Shugenja: 2.83
    Bard: 2.92
    Trickster Spellthief: 2.95
    Jester: 3.07
    Totemist: 3.08
    Swordsage: 3.09
    Warlock: 3.16
    Crusader: 3.17
    Binder: 3.18
    Psychic Warrior: 3.19
    Warmage: 3.2
    Warblade: 3.26
    Dragonfire Adept: 3.28
    Healer: 3.31
    Wild Shape Ranger: 3.31
    Duskblade: 3.34
    Factotum: 3.36
    Lurk: 3.4
    Psychic Rogue: 3.4

    Tier 4

    Wild Monk: 3.51
    Incarnate: 3.58
    Shadowcaster: 3.82
    Rogue: 3.85
    Barbarian: 4
    Generic Expert: 4
    Generic Warrior: 4
    Scout: 4.08
    Adept: 4.13
    Spellthief: 4.13
    Paladin: 4.18
    Ranger: 4.19

    Tier 5

    Ninja: 4.36
    Savant: 4.37
    Fighter: 4.48
    Marshal: 4.52
    Sohei: 4.53
    Truenamer: 4.59
    Hexblade: 4.69
    Monk: 4.7
    Battle Dancer: 4.73
    Divine Mind: 4.75
    Mountebank: 4.84
    Samurai: 4.85
    Dragon Shaman: 4.86
    Magewright: 4.94
    Swashbuckler: 4.98
    Knight: 5.02
    Soulborn: 5.05
    Noble: 5.05

    Tier 6

    Soulknife: 5.22
    Samurai: 5.27
    Expert: 5.34
    Aristocrat: 5.76
    Warrior: 5.8
    Commoner: 6
    Level Point System 5E
    Poker Roll

    Tier 1 Master of All
    Tier 2 Lightning Bruiser
    Tier 3 Lethal Joke Character
    Tier 4 Master of None
    Tier 5 Crippling Overspecialization
    Tier 6 Joke Character

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    I would like to vote the Shaman as T2, Wizard as T1, and the Wilder T2.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    [Wilder stuff]
    Sorcerers have a better spell list and like 4x as many spells known. Heck, you just rattled off a bunch of powers that aren't even on the wilder's list!

    I'll issue the wilder fans here the same challenge I gave in the original thread: show me the set of wilder powers that can outperform a warmage, bard, or warlock, given similar feat selection and itemization.

  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    Did I not vote on NPC Expert? Put me down as Tier 6. They don't have skill-boosting class features, or class features that give new uses for skills. Even Soulborn get access to several skill-boosting melds and Dragon Shamans get built-in Skill Focus. While Experts have the flexibility to choose skill combinations that aren't usually in-class together, there are a bunch of skills where they simply get shown up by various Tier 5s.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    I'm not a big wilder expert, but I'll point out that Bend Reality, Reality Revision, and Psychic Reformation are all wilder powers.
    That means they get native access to Wish equivalent powers and the kinds of shenanigans that can spawn, especially since Erudite spell to power is a thing.
    They also get native access to the ability to rewrite most of their character sheet every day, if they really want or need to. Multiple times in the same day even, though I'd say that somebody actually using PsyRef on themselves multiple times in the same day tends to suggest that something is going rather poorly.


    That's enough, IMO, to get them into T2, and arguably there's a case for lower T1.

    They can actually pull off being a Schrodinger's type build with only their native access and without needing to do anything special or questionable or cheesy. It's a touch heavy on XP, perhaps, but entirely doable.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Troacctid's Avatar

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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    Warmages get limited wish too.

    Piggy Knowles covered psychic reformation pretty well in the original thread so here's a quote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piggy Knowles View Post
    I donít disagree, but they also feel it eating up their fourth level power known slot in a way that psions really do not. Itís a bug, not a feature.

    EDIT: Just wanted to expand on what I mean by this. A wilder absolutely appreciates having access to PsyRef because of their limited powers known, but they also hate it at the same time. Realistically, you're talking about levels 6, 7, 8 and 9 where your most powerful option is going to be a single third level power. PsyRef means you can change what that third level power is (at the cost of some XP, which can drag out these levels even further), but doesn't actually get around this issue. That's a really significant chunk of time. Based on my own experiences, in actual real-life playing time, that probably means 10-15 sessions and a time investment of several months. It may not look like that big of a deal written out on a build table, but dead zones like that suck in real life play, to the point where in all likelihood if I were playing one I'd probably rather just take something else as a power known and pray I can get my hands on an item of PsyRef down the road.

    I know that tiering doesn't take into consideration how annoying something like this is in an actual game, but I'm just pointing out that PsyRef has some real drawbacks for a wilder in practice, whereas a psion basically never minds having its presence on their powers known list.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCharlemagne View Post
    Well, AnimeTheCat beat me to the punch about dotting out a scout, so props to them. If you want spot and you're not worried about lack of concealment, you can swap out fellmist robes for Keeneye lenses for spot. If you truly want to, you can also take shape soulmeld(dissolving spittle) to branch your attack meld off of your class, but that's a stretch and I wouldn't suggest it.
    That would be better, but its still short listen, but having the soulspark compensates for this, but it has issues with needing to move away and come back, and then communicating with you.

    About the skillful weapon enhancement, I only brought that up because you can just buy BAB. And Incarnates don't need it if they don't want to (dissolving spittle or lightening gauntlets can have you covered). I was just bringing it up because complaining about BAB mattering for a classes tier is an outdated thought. BAB is nice and helpful at some levels, but the obsession over it really needs to die. Incarnates are by far super chill with their gear. They're not gear independent like tier 1 & 2's are, but they are by far able to work with less optimal gear then any of the other tier 4 classes (besides maybe shadowcasters, but that class just has a leveling issue at the levels that matter the most that holds it back).
    They can buy it if it's available and if they have the money for it. The incarnum progression is scaled a bit off, and it dips off after level 7 or so. It having medium BAB and an extra 2 skill points a level could cover the gap by getting it an extra attack at level 8 and giving it enough skills to drop a couple points in relevent skills.

    The belt/boots that gave haste as a free action would have the same effect as the skillful weapon and is in core and is more in the price range.


    I do agree that Bard > Incarnate. Incarnate are definitely on the worse side tier 3 in my opinion, but I don't feel that you can have the Incarnate and the Totemist in different tiers because when you get down to it, they are quite similar.
    They could be about the same and still be in different tiers. If Incarnate is top of tier 4, the totemist could be bottom of 3 or vice/versa





    Quote Originally Posted by AnimeTheCat View Post
    On mobile, so I'll probably respond more at length later, but this bolded part. What you're saying is definitely not true. A bard is a great comparison to make for the incarnate. It does not excel at anything in particular, but can be reasonably competent at nearly all things, much like the claim of the incarnate. My thoughts are if the incarnate can hit that same level of general competence as the bard, then they should be in the same general power level as each other. So, from my point of view using the bard as a reference point and a point of comparison is in fact very much relevant.
    The bard is pretty good at mindaffecting effects with its bardic music. It can also be very good at buffing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    Did I not vote on NPC Expert? Put me down as Tier 6. They don't have skill-boosting class features, or class features that give new uses for skills. Even Soulborn get access to several skill-boosting melds and Dragon Shamans get built-in Skill Focus. While Experts have the flexibility to choose skill combinations that aren't usually in-class together, there are a bunch of skills where they simply get shown up by various Tier 5s.
    Dragon Shamans and soulborns have 2 skill points a level and doesn't have the skill list to do any role and its skill focus/soulmelds aren't going to change that.

    One of the definitions for tier 5 is
    Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof
    This describes expert to a T. It can be alright at social and scouting with hide, move silently, search, spot,listen for scouting and diplomacy and sense motive . I t could also just take a bunch of obscure skills like decipher script and forgery. The bar for tier 5 is pretty low.

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    So, all in all, a wilder is

    a thing (that could be a bear) through metamorphosis
    that summons a thing (again, you could shape it like a bear) through astral construct
    while riding a thing (psicrystals can get insane through metamorphosis)
    after sending another thing (whatever you charmed or dominated) ahead

    I don't see how that's tier 3
    Metamorphosis and astral construct are not in-class. A lot of the good stuff isn't. Wilder's class features do improve some uses of stuff from outside the class, so there's that ... but you can't even take a single instance of Expanded Knowledge until level 6! (At 3rd level, you don't have 2nd-level powers yet, so you can't learn a 1st-level.)

    The wilder can, with careful and non-class power selection, address a lot of problems, starting around level 6-8. Address, not solve -- an astral construct doesn't wipe a fight by itself, a strong dispel will help your friends but not end a problem by itself, an attempt at charming someone could backfire when they make their save and even charmed people aren't an answer to all problems, it's possible to run out of power points, your defenses are far from stellar ... By the late game wilder's had the chance to pick up enough non-class powers that it can contribute well in most situations. But not in the sweet spot, and very not at low levels.

    @javcs, having to spend XP to perform up to par hides the weakness but doesn't erase it. And a wilder with bend reality is a wilder without mind blank or greater teleport or whatever else fits their build/character. It's horrible how few powers you can get without cheese or burning XP.
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  12. - Top - End - #192
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    Default Re: Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

    The tiers aren't about any one specific build.

    They're more about the averaged net potential of possible builds for an equally applied degree of moderate practical OP fu. Over a full 20 levels.


    The tiers are not strictly linear. Nor does the bottom of one automatically map to where the top of the next, or vice versa. And higher levels of optimization in specific builds can move that build into being comparable to lower optimization builds in the next tier up.


    --

    Sure, needing to spend XP on rewriting your character sheet is worse than just needing to prepare a different set of spells.
    On the other hand, it is, objectively speaking, not all that much XP per instance of rewriting your sheet, and XP is a river, so they say. And, realistically speaking, you aren't going to be redoing everything very often, and will usually only need to change out one or two powers known at any given time.

    In addition, the built in ability to do that as often as you're willing to spend XP is vastly superior to the inability to do so.


    And, sure, an item would probably be cheaper in the long run, but if you've got a long enough stretch of downtime, you can PsyRef yourself into a crafter, and make yourself an item of it - and how far back you can go isn't locked by manifester level, but by how much XP you're willing to spend, and going back 20 levels is only 1000 XP split between manifester and subject, so you can future proof it without much difficulty - and then when downtime is over, you can PsyRef yourself back to an adventuring or other version of your sheet.



    Wilder absolutely has a crappy floor. On the other hand, they have a respectably high ceiling, and the native ability to rebuild and go from the bottom of their potential to near the top of it - with just one power that's on their class list. That's not some insignificant detail to ignore. It takes no real skill at optimization or splat diving. It's just there.
    The psion/wilder list is pretty decent.

    At any given time, the wilder is lower T2, but has the potential to be flexible in ways that T2s normally aren't and T1s naturally are.



    The wilder is a bit of a screwy edge case.



    But can you really justify native access to Reality Revision and PsyRef as T3 or worse? No need for ACFs, PRCs, splat-searching, or any kind of list expansion, just default access.
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Sorcerers have a better spell list and like 4x as many spells known. Heck, you just rattled off a bunch of powers that aren't even on the wilder's list!

    I'll issue the wilder fans here the same challenge I gave in the original thread: show me the set of wilder powers that can outperform a warmage, bard, or warlock, given similar feat selection and itemization.
    You'll maybe remember I'd provided such a power list, back in the old thread. Gimme a minute and I'll paste it here.

    EDIT: actually there were a crapton of power sets that were offered for that purpose. What they were doing, however, was to be able not to outperform a given warmage, bard or warlock but to be on par with said three classes all at the same time. Saying that a given class manages to more or less replicates three Tier 3 classes at the same time amounts to arguing for a degree of versatility on par with what Tier 2 (or at least, high Tier 3) can perform.

    We had:
    Spoiler: Nifft's list
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    1 - Because after it becomes so much worse than not using it, you can just opt to not use it. The major bonus which was supposed to be what you get as compensation for having so few powers becomes a liability which you simply ignore.


    2 - Okay. Trivial build: Wilder 5 / Thrallherd 10 then into some other PrC for the last 5. Get mindlink via Hidden Talent.


    I think a full-on Wilder 20 can beat Warmage / Warblade / Bard by cherry-picking powers using feats... let me try:

    Level 1: Hidden Talent (Psi Minor Creation)
    - Crystal Shard

    Level 2:
    - Vigor

    Level 3: Psicrystal Affinity

    Level 4:
    - Share Pain

    Level 6: Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct)
    - Time Hop

    Level 8:
    - Psi Dimension Door

    Level 9: Expanded Knowledge (Psi Suggestion)

    Level 10:
    - Psi Plane Shift

    Level 12: Expanded Knowledge (Metamorphosis)
    - Psi Disintegrate

    You're behind what any competent Psion could have done, but I think you're ahead of most T3 classes, including the three listed. You've got a very solid tanking combo, plus you're well set up to exploit sharing a power with your pet rock (hello metamorphosis).

    That's all from core. If we extend the build higher, I'd probably want to look at non-core power lists.


    Spoiler: remetagross' list
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    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    Uh. That's actually a rather interesting challenge. I have no idea whether this can be pulled off, but let's see.
    For one, Wilders gain 11 powers of the course of 20 levels (not 9) because they gain another one at level 2 and yet another one at level 20.

    So...skimming the New, No-Nonsense Guide to Psions and looking at the purple powers...
    Level 1: Entangling Ectoplasm, I guess? It remains useful for a long, long time.
    Level 2: We have to pick another 1st level power. Maybe there we can mention Psionic Grease?
    Level 4: Energy Stun takes great advantage of Wild Surge, and provides with a debuff in addition to damage.
    Level 6: Dispel Psionics. Thanks to Wild Surge this will quickly reach the cap of dispelling bonus, so you'll be ahead of the expected caster level on opponent spells. Or maybe Time Hop for utility?
    Level 8: Psionic Divination is an all-in-one divination power. Or Psionic Dimension Door?
    Level 10: I guess Ectoplasmic Shambler provides with battlefield control.
    Level 12: Psionic Disintegrate takes well advantage of Wild Surge, and can be used for a modicum of utility in addition to damage.
    Level 14: Nothing seems too great here. Maybe Eyes of the Basilisk or Decerebrate for the save or dies, or Personal Mind Blank.
    Level 16: I believe Bend Reality does not cost too much exp at that level and provides with a lot of utility.
    Level 18: Dunno. Stygian Conflagration for debuff?
    Level 20: That's when I'd take Reality Revision.

    So, how does that look? I'd say the raw damage can beat the Warblade, what with Psionic Disintegrate. There's a modicum of BFC, maybe not at the level of a Warmage though. Psionics is ill-suited to buffing allies, so there's no rivalling that part of the Bard, but this power list contains a number of debuffs. Plus Psionic Divination and/or Psionic Dimension Door that can either account for the Bard's intel gathering ability or for those White Raven maneuvers that allow the team to reposition.


    With the Educated Wilder it becomes better, though. The Expanded Knowledge you get can grant you Discipline-exclusive powers. How about:
    Level 5: Astral Construct. It pairs really well with Wild Surge. Or Psionic Minor Creation, or Charm Person.
    Level 9: Hustle, Ectoplasmic Cocoon, False Sensory Input?
    Level 13: Schism, or maybe Psionic Dominate. There's also Metamorphosis.
    Level 17: Fission, Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon.

    I do feel going from 11 to 15 powers known is a significant improvement in the Wilder's power...

    In addition to that, Wilders have 4 skill points/level, are Cha-bases and have all the social skills, so maybe they can afford not to take Psionic Charm Person or Psionic Dominate and Diplomance their way through social encounters.


    Spoiler: heavyfuel's list
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    That was out the top of my head, but sure, I'll try.

    Spoiler: Power List
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    Lv1- Psionic Grease / Entangling Ectoplasm
    Lv1- Energy Ray
    Lv2- Control Sound
    Lv3- Telekinetic Force/Touchsight
    Lv4- Psychic Reformation
    Lv5- Incarnate/Major Creation
    Lv6- Temporal Accelaration
    Lv7- Mind Blank, Personal
    Lv8- Bend Reality/Teleport, Psionic Greater
    Lv9- Reality Revision
    Lv9- Stygian Conflagration

    Expanded Knowledge lv6 - Astral Construct
    Expanded Knowledge lv9 - Concealing Amorpha, Greater
    Expanded Knowledge lv12 - Metamorphosis / Schism
    Expanded Knowledge lv15 - Dominate, Psionic / Clairtangent Hand / Second Chance
    Expanded Knowledge lv18 - Astral Seed / Fate of One / Fission / Fusion


    Looking at my own list, which is not at all perfect, I'd say the Wilder is a Tier 4.5 until and including level 5. At level 6, they rocket jump their way into Tier 2.5 and stay there until level 20. And that's for standard Wilder. Educated Wilder makes them significantly better.


    Now of course it's more like these power lists allow (arguably) the Wilder to hold his own against a Warblade, a Bard and a Warmage at the same time, not really being just as effective as them all. It's still quite an accomplishment. A Psion (inarguably Tier 2) could do much the same, burning extra powers on Charm Person to make up for the lack of social skills, but still coming out on top. So the Wilder is weaker than the Psion, but by how much?

    Now, trying to build a Wilder that outright outperforms either a Warlock, a Warmage or a Bard at equal optimization levels...hmm. First, I think there's no way the Wilder is ever going to beat the Bard as far as party buffing goes. Psionics plain suck for that purpose. But beating the Bard at all the other things it excels at? Namely, information retrieval, being a face? I guess that can be done. Pick Psionic Charm Person, and you'v got Persisted Charm Person, Charm Monster all rolled up in one. Also pick Psionic Dominate when the time comes for it through Expanded Knowledge. Psionic Divination and Object Reading cover a lot as far as intel gathering is concerned (you can pick Metafaculty through Expanded Knowledge for the ultimate info gathering power at high levels). Wilders have the same social skills as Bards.
    Beating a Warlock at his schtick...well I guess it depends on which Invocations the Warlock picks. Given Wild Surge, the fact they're pretty SAD and their huge pool of power points, Wilders can usually use their powers quite carefree, so I'd surmise they can to an extent replicate the at-will asset the Warlocks have...and then maybe for each Invocation, there's a power to match it?
    When it comes to Warmages...Wilders are able to pick whatever energy type they choose when they manifest a direct damage power, which is a huge compression tool that somewhat offsets the sheer number of spells of various elements the Warmages get. Wild Surge once again allows them to break ahead when it comes to dice, as they can break the "1d6/character level" cap. A Wilder could pick Psionic Grease, Energy Stun, Psionic Disintegrate, Ectoplasmic Wall, Control Sound, Telekinetic Force, Energy Wave...

    Tell you what, my gut feeling is that the Wilder can not come head and shoulders above any of these three when trying to replicate what they can do (except maybe the Warlock), but can definitely be just as good. At the end of the day, I'm advocation for high Tier 3, rather than Tier 2, but definitely higher than, say, a Binder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimers View Post
    By the late game wilder's had the chance to pick up enough non-class powers that it can contribute well in most situations. But not in the sweet spot, and very not at low levels.
    Actually, I kind of disagree here. See, I'm in an ongoing PF campaign where I play a Dreamscarred Press Wilder (just reached level 6), and I've specifically picked all the options and archetypes and stuff to make it match the 3.5 Educated Wilder as much as possible (thanks to Educated ACF, the 3.5 Wilder ends up with roughly the same amount of feats the PF Wilder does). My Wilder is actually extremely powerful at what she does, and I'm refraining myself a little from going all out so as not to overshadow the Monk, Paladin, Rogue and Bloodrager in the party. It all boils down to two reasons.

    1. I've picked Obtain Psycristal as a feat, and that nets me a ton of scouting abilities, quite better than what the Rogue can do actually. That's because contrary to Familiars, Psicrystals can have a real, detailed, spoken telepathic conversation with their master, not a mere empathic link. I'm actually refraining from having it pop everywhere and anywhere. That's something any Psionic class can boast, not only the Wilder, sure, but it seems to me a big share of Wilders across all optimization levels will pick that feat. Optimizers because it's so powerful, non-optimizers because it allows them to match the fluff of the Familiar-owning Sorcerer.

    2. I've picked Energy Stun as my 2nd-level power known. Thanks to Wild Surge, at level 5 I could pump it to ML 7, augmenting by 4 power points. That meant it dealt 1+4 = 5d6 points of elemental damage (of any type I wanted) to two ennemies per turn (given the 5ft-radius effect), prompting a (Fort of Ref depending on the chosen element) save DC of 20 (10+2 (2nd level power) +1 (Cloak of Charisma) + 4 (Starting Cha 18) +1 (Lesser Aasimar) +2 (augmented by 2 points 2 times)) for half damage, and then again a Will save DC of 20 vs stun. Picking Electricity as the damage type, the saves are increased by 2. Meaning the monsters have to make a Ref save DC 22, and then a Will save DC 22. At level 5, extremely few monsters can pull of such a high save DC. This power was so devastating I was afraid the DM would nerf it. And I had enough power points to cast it at max ML about 8 times a day. I didn't need it though, because Stunned monsters were dispatched by my teammates. And it's a regular Wilder power, not one I got through Expanded Knowledge or anything.

    Bonus. In addition, Wilders are Cha-based, have a lot of skill points with nothing much to do with them, and all the social skills. Meaning my Wilder is the party face with maxed out Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive and Gather Information, more or less by default. Once again, I'd assume a wide range of Wilders out there would invest their skill points in such a manner, even the subpar, non-optimized ones, given there's not much else a Wilder can use their skill points for.

    So my character is very good at social interaction, combat, and exploration. And it's not yet the uber-duper optimized character. My other powers are Vigor and Entangling Ectoplasm, but they actually could be quite anything else, including crappy useless choices, because Wild Surge-boosted Energy Stun alone is enough to do the job. All in all, my Wilder could still be the MVP of the party with all but crappy, useless choices apart from that 1 feat and that 1 power. Remove one, the other still allows the Wilder to be very competent at either Scouting and Social, or Combat and Social. Meaning it actually amounts to quite a broad range of optimization level, it's not confined to super-optimized Wilders.

    Automatically being an awesome face actually raises the floor of Wilders quite a little, as well as the happenstance of picking at least 1 good power in the whole lot, given how much miileage one can get out of 1good psionic power.

    All of that is only true for level range 1-5, though, I have no experience at higher levels so I couldn't tell. But as far as low levels are concerned, I feel like my Wilder, and by extent a quite broad range of Wilders out there, can contribute to the party in a way that's certainly at least as varied or at least as effective as a Sorcerer. All in all my take is that Wilder certainly is one of the best Tier 3 out there, or maybe one of the worst Tier 2.

    I had voted for Wilder 2.5, and I stand by that assessment. I'm quite pleased with the Wilder actually standing at the top of Tier 3.
    Last edited by remetagross; 2019-10-24 at 08:11 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    Actually, I kind of disagree here. See, I'm in an ongoing PF campaign where I play a Dreamscarred Press Wilder (just reached level 6), and I've specifically picked all the options and archetypes and stuff to make it match the 3.5 Educated Wilder as much as possible (thanks to Educated ACF, the 3.5 Wilder ends up with roughly the same amount of feats the PF Wilder does). My Wilder is actually extremely powerful at what she does, and I'm refraining myself a little from going all out so as not to overshadow the Monk, Paladin, Rogue and Bloodrager in the party.
    I respect practice over theory, so I appreciate that. But:

    Quote Originally Posted by remetagross View Post
    I had voted for Wilder 2.5, and I stand by that assessment. I'm quite pleased with the Wilder actually standing at the top of Tier 3.
    That's how I would've voted, anyway, based on averaging it out over the whole levels-1-to-20 range. It's got potentially better tools than most Tier 3s but clear weak points compared to most Tier 2s.
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    Not to sound stupid, but could someone explain why the beguiler's lack of 5th+ level spells that do anything to enemies who are immune to mind affecting doesn't hold it back from reaching tier 2? Particularly in regards to the common claim that it's better than an equal leveled sorcerer, who is just as capable of using thinks like runestaves and UMD, and indeed might well be better at it given that UMD keys off of charisma and isn't needed for anything on the sorcerer spell list. Can you really expand your spell list adequately without PrCs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder999 View Post
    Not to sound stupid, but could someone explain why the beguiler's lack of 5th+ level spells that do anything to enemies who are immune to mind affecting doesn't hold it back from reaching tier 2? Particularly in regards to the common claim that it's better than an equal leveled sorcerer, who is just as capable of using thinks like runestaves and UMD, and indeed might well be better at it given that UMD keys off of charisma and isn't needed for anything on the sorcerer spell list. Can you really expand your spell list adequately without PrCs?
    1. Sorcerer doesnít get UMD in class, and is really starved for skill points in general. Especially for knowledges if it wants to use powerhouse abilities like polymorph or planar binding. Beguiler has it in class and points to spend on it. The heavy UMD advantage lies with beguiler.

    2. Beguiler has access to spells like shadow evocation, shadow conjuration and ice assassin via advanced learning which work fine against mind immune.

    3. List enhancing methods like arcane disciple work better for beguiler than sorcerer.

    4. Immune to mind affecting doesnít make you immune to illusions. Or to dominated minions. Or even glibness.

    5. Beguiler is a fully functional skill monkey on top of being a darn good caster. Itís likely to outperform a sorcerer at information gathering, hiding, trapfinding, knowledges, and social encounters, even with the Sorcerers charisma bonus. As an Int caster it probably has more skill points than any other class except factotum.

    6. Beguiler is at its greatest advantage versus sorcerer in the levels that commonly see play. Sorcerer has its advantage in levels that donít.

    And for what itís worth it has a better variety of list expanding classes and the free feats and extra skills often make qualifying for prcs easier.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-10-26 at 08:27 PM.

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    Beguilers get dominate person at 5th level, so they can just dominate one dude, haste him up, and have him deal with the mindless dudes for them. What spells are the sorcerers taking that are better than dominate person anyway? Overland flight? Teleport? Those don't deal with mindless enemies any better. Shadow evocation? Beguilers can get it too at level 11. Wall of force? It's not that much better than solid fog. Arcane fusion? Now you're relying on your lower-level spells against them just like the beguiler is.

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    For the Sorcerer, there are personal attack (Polymorph, Shapechange), bypass (dimension door, greater teleport, etc...), and more robust/earlier minions (Planar Binding, Necrotic Domination/Tumor).

    For the Beguiler, there is Song of the Dead, which allows it to directly affect a big class of otherwise immune to mind-affecting.
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    One issue with dominate person is that magic circle hedges your control out

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Beguilers get dominate person at 5th level, so they can just dominate one dude, haste him up, and have him deal with the mindless dudes for them. What spells are the sorcerers taking that are better than dominate person anyway? Overland flight? Teleport? Those don't deal with mindless enemies any better. Shadow evocation? Beguilers can get it too at level 11. Wall of force? It's not that much better than solid fog. Arcane fusion? Now you're relying on your lower-level spells against them just like the beguiler is.
    You mean like a bard? Except bard gets Dragonfire Inspiration and can join in the melee with Snowflake Wardance and Swift Invisibility.
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    Didn't see it anywhere in the 1st page, or am I blind?

    Where is Factotum in all this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tindragon View Post
    Didn't see it anywhere in the 1st page, or am I blind?

    Where is Factotum in all this?
    Tier 3. Scored 3.36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    You mean like a bard? Except bard gets Dragonfire Inspiration and can join in the melee with Snowflake Wardance and Swift Invisibility.
    A little like a bard. Except a bard 10 has a total of 6 spells known between levels 3-5, and can cast 3-5 of them a day. A beguiler has a total of 42 spells known (before doing anything to enhance his list, because DFI and wardance from the bard means Iím rocking domains or other list tricks) between 3 and 5. And can cast 15-18 per day. The bard could very well take haste, slow, glibness, dispel magic, greater invisibility and dominate person. Thatís not a bad mix of offense, defense, crowd control and utility. The beguiler gets all those +36 more and can cast 3 times more often.

    And while the bard (unlike the sorcerer) is probably a little better on his UMD check than is beguiler, beguiler has the high level slots to use on things like runestaves.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-10-27 at 09:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    A little like a bard. Except a bard 10 has a total of 6 spells known between levels 3-5, and can cast 3-5 of them a day. A beguiler has a total of 42 spells known (before doing anything to enhance his list, because DFI and wardance from the bard means Iím rocking domains or other list tricks) between 3 and 5. And can cast 15-18 per day. The bard could very well take haste, slow, glibness, dispel magic, greater invisibility and dominate person. Thatís not a bad mix of offense, defense, crowd control and utility. The beguiler gets all those +36 more and can cast 3 times more often.

    And while the bard (unlike the sorcerer) is probably a little better on his UMD check than is beguiler, beguiler has the high level slots to use on things like runestaves.
    I mean, I'd probably have most of those spells on items or just not use them because of limited actions in a day and save my spells per day for spells that actually scale with caster level. What are you spending your feats on if "list tricks" aren't on the table or if a runestaff costs your character too much wealth to obtain?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I'd rate Adept 4.5 if I haven't already.
    Quote Originally Posted by HisHighestMinio View Post
    Adept: T4.75. Adepts are severely anemic with spell slots. They get a good list, but the list is too small to really be powerful, and on top of that they're prepared casters. By the time they get good spells and enough slots to use them reliably, the spells are no longer worthwhile. That being said, they are better than most T5, with its samurais and monks and truenamers. So I'm voting on the high end of tier 5.

    Expert: T6. Expert is the only really sucky class that does skills well. This makes it hard to compare, but there is no niche protection in the tier system. Expert is worse than CW Samurai, between chassis and actually having some class features (I can count a whole 3 real class features on the Samurai, plus a few bonus feats). It's comparable to Aristocrat, which I rank as a definite T6. Compared to Aristocrat, Expert gains 2 skill points and a class skill or two in exchange for martial weapon proficiencies and a HD size. It's probably better than Aristocrat, but it's close.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaos Jackal View Post
    On a different matter, I'd like to vote 5.7 for Expert.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyltran View Post
    Yup exactly. :P Sohei for Tier 4 imo. Incarnate 3.5 and Urban Druid 1. I don't think I've voted in those categories yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnia View Post
    Do agree with Marshals being T4. I'm playing one now and I'm enjoying her a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Tier 4 seems appropriate for the spellthief in isolation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sutr View Post
    I'd like to also agree with warlock being a 3.5 and move my incarnate vote to equal with that. Lots of options easier to switch out less in combat oomph and D&D is still mostly combat.
    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Warlock is firmly T4. Nowhere near the bottom, but not close to the top of T4 either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sutr View Post
    Well so far since this seems to be an update, so I'll vote alot. Keeping track of my vote and new votes: incarnate warlock 3.5, warmage, dragonfire adept, crusader, warblade, swordsage 3, psychic warrior, mystic ranger 2 prestige classes exist. Soulborn, samurai, expert 5.5, they are truly horrible.

    Wizard, cleric, druid, shaman, archivist 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Sutr View Post
    Made a mistake in typing on the psychic warrior that should be 3. I do apologize.

    I still find the fact that mystic ranger is better than tier 2 for ten levels, the ones most likely to be played, and falling to tier three by level 20 as tier two. The ranger spell list is quite good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    I am having a hard time with binder. I want it to be 3 and it does get there, but like there are a few levels before you get your second bind that are pretty awful. I am not sure if that drops it enough to get a 4. 3.75 for now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    The Urban Druid's spell list is truly excellent (even without sanctified spells) and should warrant a tier 1 status right off the bat IMO
    Quote Originally Posted by StevenC21 View Post
    I would like to vote the Shaman as T2, Wizard as T1, and the Wilder T2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    Did I not vote on NPC Expert? Put me down as Tier 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    I'm not a big wilder expert, but I'll point out that Bend Reality, Reality Revision, and Psychic Reformation are all wilder powers.
    That means they get native access to Wish equivalent powers and the kinds of shenanigans that can spawn, especially since Erudite spell to power is a thing.
    They also get native access to the ability to rewrite most of their character sheet every day, if they really want or need to. Multiple times in the same day even, though I'd say that somebody actually using PsyRef on themselves multiple times in the same day tends to suggest that something is going rather poorly.

    That's enough, IMO, to get them into T2, and arguably there's a case for lower T1.
    All these votes have been recorded. Marshal and sohei have now moved up into T4, and mystic ranger has moved up into T2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    All these votes have been recorded. Marshal and sohei have now moved up into T4, and mystic ranger has moved up into T2.
    Here is some signifcant change! I'm glad for the poor Sohei: not that I have the first clue as to how this class behaves in play, but it warms my heart to see some others do, and give it a tad more attention than what it got back in the original thread. Seems a fairer deal to them for me.
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    Troacctid, did you miss my vote for Truenamer to be Tier 4?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    I mean, I'd probably have most of those spells on items or just not use them because of limited actions in a day and save my spells per day for spells that actually scale with caster level. What are you spending your feats on if "list tricks" aren't on the table or if a runestaff costs your character too much wealth to obtain?
    What are you spending yours on if DFI and Wardance arenít? Iíve seen a lot more games allow CDiv than Dragon Magic and Frostburn. But otherwise many of the same feats you would get for any caster/skill monkey. Darkstalker. Acquire familiar/improved familiar. Crafting feats. Metamagic reducers. Prerequisites for PRC access. Leadership if allowed. Bloodline feats. Accelerate metamagic. Iím not worried about finding good feats to fill my slots

    So you are getting haste and greater invisibility on items eh? Cool, cool. I assume you arenít getting slow or dominate on items, since theyíre save dependent. Since you are assuming magic mart (Not a good assumption), I guess Iíll just get items of polymorph and shivering touch for the same cost. Or my raiment of the 4 for fireball, magic missile and teleport. The more effort you put into copying stuff I do for free the more effort I can put into developing powers that arenít on either list.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2019-10-29 at 09:15 AM.

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    I'm glad to see Sohei in Tier 4 - especially since it's probably exactly where I'd put it if I could finagle these rankings manually (the tiniest hair's breadth ahead of Fighter). Though as I said before, more than anything, what I wanted was for Sohei to just get more discussion, because it got such a cursory glance on first pass, and one of its best shticks (Sanctified Spells) wasn't even touched upon. If more discussion leads it back to Tier 5, I won't begrudge that, because I'll feel that it did at least get a fair shake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zfs View Post
    I'm glad to see Sohei in Tier 4 - especially since it's probably exactly where I'd put it if I could finagle these rankings manually (the tiniest hair's breadth ahead of Fighter). Though as I said before, more than anything, what I wanted was for Sohei to just get more discussion, because it got such a cursory glance on first pass, and one of its best shticks (Sanctified Spells) wasn't even touched upon. If more discussion leads it back to Tier 5, I won't begrudge that, because I'll feel that it did at least get a fair shake.
    You said the Site-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named actually does not display the whole array of spells the Sohei is able to cast. Where would be an exhaustive source of these spells?
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