Why each class is in its tier: 2019 update!

[zfs]

You said the Site-Which-Must-Not-Be-Named actually does not display the whole array of spells the Sohei is able to cast. Where would be an exhaustive source of these spells?

Is realmshelps kosher? If so, this link has the full list.

I personally am not impressed by its casting. I think it's closer to hexblade or divine mind than paladin or barbarian.

Well, per the rankings, that's about where it stands right now - it's further from Barbarian than it is from Divine Mind. The Hexblade's spell list is definitely better - even taking into account the limited spells known, their available spells on any given day will be superior. Sanctified spells bridge that gap a bit, but probably not quite enough. But Hexblade vs. Sohei is an interesting comparison. The 3.5 errata Ki Frenzy progression probably makes them a slightly better melee combatant out of the tin, even with the Hexblade having full BAB. Both get Mettle. Both gets some mostly dinky bonus feats. Sohei has two good saves, while Hexblade gets Cha to their saves. Sohei gets that very nice immunity to stunning (and sleep, for what it's worth) at Level 5. They're equally MAD and both are d10 hit die. They're actually pretty even when it comes to who has better gish spells. Hexblade has the better defensive and utility spells, but through Sanctified the Sohei gets the Luminous Armor line and some other nifty toys. I haven't rated Hexblade - I'll have to consider whether I would rank it equal to the Sohei or a tad lower.

Edit: I think the only Sanctified spells that really need to be called out as contributing to a higher ranking are the Luminous Armor spells, Celestial Aspect, Vision of Punishment (limited to evil, but a Level 1 spell that can inflict nausea is very nice), plus Telepathy Tap and Celestial Fortress for some cool utility tricks. A few others might deserve a bit of notice - Animate With The Spirit is sort of nifty.

[remetagross]

Is realmshelps kosher? If so, this link has the full list.

Thanks. The list is indeed super small though with good stuff in it. It's not too much of a problem given the low number of spell slots Soheis get, so you'll end up filling them with the same few good spells each and every time anyway.

[pabelfly]

Probably. Was it in bold?

It wasn't in the list of the other score additionsyou added before, no.

[Karl Aegis]

What are you spending yours on if DFI and Wardance aren’t? I’ve seen a lot more games allow CDiv than Dragon Magic and Frostburn. But otherwise many of the same feats you would get for any caster/skill monkey. Darkstalker. Acquire familiar/improved familiar. Crafting feats. Metamagic reducers. Prerequisites for PRC access. Leadership if allowed. Bloodline feats. Accelerate metamagic. I’m not worried about finding good feats to fill my slots

So you are getting haste and greater invisibility on items eh? Cool, cool. I assume you aren’t getting slow or dominate on items, since they’re save dependent. Since you are assuming magic mart (Not a good assumption), I guess I’ll just get items of polymorph and shivering touch for the same cost. Or my raiment of the 4 for fireball, magic missile and teleport. The more effort you put into copying stuff I do for free the more effort I can put into developing powers that aren’t on either list.

You probably should have boots of speed and/or dust of disappearance if you are trying to be a dedicated melee character. I wouldn't recommend getting an actual fourth level spell in your fourth level spells known when you can get fifth or sixth level spells like Dominate Person, Legend Lore or Thunder Field. Use items for things you won't need that often like a 10 charge wand of glibness, magic savant or tongues or a full wand for a caster level 2 wand (chamber) of swift invisibility or cure light wounds.

I personally don't mind a Song of the White Raven / Leap Attack build, but bards have real feat support outside of core. Not just copying class features from other classes, but things like Versatile Performer, Captivating Melody, Melodic Casting, Extra Music and a few multiclass feats.

[Luccan]

Ok, someone mentioned more discussion on the sohei and since it just jumped up a tier I'll bite. Is anything other than sanctified spells giving it that T4 spot? Because it's still a martial class without full BAB, a less supported version of rage, and spells that it can't use in that rage. The spell list without Sanctified Spells is also not exactly great. I recall the paladin discussion noting that without support it would have easily fallen a tier; sohei has no such support, beyond Sanctified Spells. Are those really so good and so common that it moves the class out of T5 all on their own?

[Lans]

It can make an extra attack at level 1 while in its rage. that makes up for its BA. Course that doesn't scale,

[Gnaeus]

You probably should have boots of speed and/or dust of disappearance if you are trying to be a dedicated melee character. I wouldn't recommend getting an actual fourth level spell in your fourth level spells known when you can get fifth or sixth level spells like Dominate Person, Legend Lore or Thunder Field. Use items for things you won't need that often like a 10 charge wand of glibness, magic savant or tongues or a full wand for a caster level 2 wand (chamber) of swift invisibility or cure light wounds.

The early access spells thing is really convenient for your chameleon friend. Not so much a + in a bard versus beguiler debate. Your early access to dominate means we get it at the same time and I can cast it 4 times as often with a higher save DC. And I get 6th level spells before you get 5ths. Again, you get a 5th level spell to compare with my 4 5ths and 6 4ths. And I get a full range of options to use my slots on.

The boots of speed are good for you because your battle plan appears to be gishing. My battle plan is to be a high tier caster and haste my dominated minions, the party fighters, summons etc. But I’m still happy for you to use boots and for me to get a wand of shivering touch. Dust of Disappearance is 3500 per use. Please duplicate my 4th level spells with a 3500/use item. I can buy a new wand every adventure just on what you are spending duplicating my spells. I can actually buy an 8th level scroll for every use of dust. You get a wand of glibness. I’ll get a wand of alter self. You are literally spending money to duplicate my primary spells then more money to deal with all the corner case spells I get for free as a full caster, then pretending I won’t spend money to get sorcerer or cleric wands, because I already have glibness/see invisible/tongues/clairvoyance etc on tap.

I personally don't mind a Song of the White Raven / Leap Attack build, but bards have real feat support outside of core .

Clearly. Your default average op bard seems to use a dozen obscure sourcebooks. I beat it with core + C Div.

.

Not just copying class features from other classes, but things like Versatile Performer, Captivating Melody, Melodic Casting, Extra Music and a few multiclass feats.

You are copying your own class features (and mine) with items. I am using the best class feature in the game... full 9th casting, to do the same things every other full caster does. I also have some handy class features you lack, like trapfinding, which let me do the party skillmonkey job better than a bard can. So that’s somewhere else you will need to play catch-up with feats or money.

[zfs]

Ok, someone mentioned more discussion on the sohei and since it just jumped up a tier I'll bite. Is anything other than sanctified spells giving it that T4 spot? Because it's still a martial class without full BAB, a less supported version of rage, and spells that it can't use in that rage. The spell list without Sanctified Spells is also not exactly great. I recall the paladin discussion noting that without support it would have easily fallen a tier; sohei has no such support, beyond Sanctified Spells. Are those really so good and so common that it moves the class out of T5 all on their own?

It's mostly the Sanctified Spells. They arguably get Iaijutsu Focus, but I'm not a huge fan of that skill anyway, and they can't combine it with Ki Frenzy. It does at least give them a damage boost when they run out of Frenzies for the day. Without Sanctified Spells, they're not making their way out of Tier 5. So yeah, it depends on how much you value those. I think they're quite good. When Sohei was in Tier 5, they were one of two classes that could pick up Sanctified Spells. The other is Magewright. So Sanctified Spells with nothing else obviously aren't a consensus Tier 4. But Sohei does have other things, whereas Magewright has an awful chassis and no class features besides their spells. The extra spell level isn't helping them much with the Sanctified list because the Level 5 Sanctified Spells are pretty weak (it's just Inquisition and Sicken Evil, IIRC).

[Luccan]

It's mostly the Sanctified Spells. They arguably get Iaijutsu Focus, but I'm not a huge fan of that skill anyway, and they can't combine it with Ki Frenzy. It does at least give them a damage boost when they run out of Frenzies for the day. Without Sanctified Spells, they're not making their way out of Tier 5. So yeah, it depends on how much you value those. I think they're quite good. When Sohei was in Tier 5, they were one of two classes that could pick up Sanctified Spells. The other is Magewright. So Sanctified Spells with nothing else obviously aren't a consensus Tier 4. But Sohei does have other things, whereas Magewright has an awful chassis and no class features besides their spells. The extra spell level isn't helping them much with the Sanctified list because the Level 5 Sanctified Spells are pretty weak (it's just Inquisition and Sicken Evil, IIRC).

The spells are better than just not having them and being stuck with only the class features, but I think if Sanctified Spells are the only thing pushing the class up a tier then Sohei is T5. Generally, notable leaps in power and versatility from one trick don't move a class completely up a tier or if it does it's measured separately. Obviously Sanctified Spells aren't really an ACF, so measuring it separately doesn't make much sense.

Looking at Sanctified Spells, the favorites would seem to be Luminous Armor (including Greater), Celestial Aspect, and Sunmantle. But you won't be casting those every day, at least early on, since you'll need to cast Lesser Restoration at least once every few days to offset the ability damage. And the ability damage also effects your ability to do the whole "hitting people until they die" thing. You have some ability to offset that, but I don't think you really get the ability to ignore it until too late into your career.

I'm not gonna vote on it just yet, I'd like to continue discussing.

[Troacctid]

Also, of all the classes that get sanctified spells, sohei is the worst at using them. Vision of punishment is fine, but the Strength damage is actually a meaningful drawback for you, and your save DC for it is gonna be only like 13; it's not much better than bless. Luminous armor is not even good; not only will you not have enough CL for it to last all day until like level 16, you also have actual armor proficiency, so you can just wear full plate. Celestial aspect is fine, but getting flight for 5 minutes a day at level 12 is not exactly revolutionary, nor is it much of a power jump compared to the other 3rd level spells on your list. At the same level, hexblades have stinking cloud, invisibility sphere, and charm monster, and they can have two or three of them prepared at the same time.

Bottom line, even with sanctified spells, it's still a worse spell list than the T5 hexblade, and unlike the hexblade, you can't cast your spells spontaneously. You have better armor, but worse BAB, and only slightly better class features. I stand by the 5 that I originally gave it.

Also, I don't know why it's debatable that they get Iaijutsu Focus; doesn't the book clearly say they do? I mean, they can't use it in a ki frenzy, and Cha is a dump stat, but they definitely get it.

[zfs]

Also, of all the classes that get sanctified spells, sohei is the worst at using them. Vision of punishment is fine, but the Strength damage is actually a meaningful drawback for you, and your save DC for it is gonna be only like 13; it's not much better than bless. Luminous armor is not even good; not only will you not have enough CL for it to last all day until like level 16, you also have actual armor proficiency, so you can just wear full plate. Celestial aspect is fine, but getting flight for 5 minutes a day at level 12 is not exactly revolutionary, nor is it much of a power jump compared to the other 3rd level spells on your list. At the same level, hexblades have stinking cloud, invisibility sphere, and charm monster, and they can have two or three of them prepared at the same time.

Bottom line, even with sanctified spells, it's still a worse spell list than the T5 hexblade, and unlike the hexblade, you can't cast your spells spontaneously. You have better armor, but worse BAB, and only slightly better class features. I stand by the 5 that I originally gave it.

Also, I don't know why it's debatable that they get Iaijutsu Focus; doesn't the book clearly say they do? I mean, they can't use it in a ki frenzy, and Cha is a dump stat, but they definitely get it.

They could wear actual full-plate, but then their max Dex bonus is 1. Since their Dex should be decent and Frenzy boosts Dex, it's a waste not to benefit from it. Plus you get the additional -4 that melee attackers take on attacks against you. By the time they get Greater Luminous Armor, their CL is either going to be 7 or 11, so it should last most of the adventuring day. The 1d2 from Vision of Punishment definitely hurts (since unlike the longer lasting spells, you're going to likely take that hit during battle), but nausea is still relevant at higher levels (the DC being low obviously stays a problem), and it being a swift action spell is a plus since it's a low duration spell. I disagree about flight not being noticeably better than their class list at Level 3 - Greater Magic Weapon is going to be what you'd otherwise prepare most of the time. I think flight trumps that because they have other gishy spells but no other movement related spells.

The book clearly says they get Iaijutsu focus, but I consider the 3.5 update canon since it was in Dragon magazine. That update does not change their class skills - however, since Iaijutsu Focus is a 3.0 skill, I'm not sure if it's fair to have the 3.5 Update port it over. But strict RAW would say that yes, they still have it, since nothing in the update specifically overrides their class skill list from OA. I'm not a huge fan of IF for the reasons you listed - they can't stack it with Frenzy and Cha is a dump stat.

The spells are better than just not having them and being stuck with only the class features, but I think if Sanctified Spells are the only thing pushing the class up a tier then Sohei is T5. Generally, notable leaps in power and versatility from one trick don't move a class completely up a tier or if it does it's measured separately. Obviously Sanctified Spells aren't really an ACF, so measuring it separately doesn't make much sense.

Looking at Sanctified Spells, the favorites would seem to be Luminous Armor (including Greater), Celestial Aspect, and Sunmantle. But you won't be casting those every day, at least early on, since you'll need to cast Lesser Restoration at least once every few days to offset the ability damage. And the ability damage also effects your ability to do the whole "hitting people until they die" thing. You have some ability to offset that, but I don't think you really get the ability to ignore it until too late into your career.

I'm not gonna vote on it just yet, I'd like to continue discussing.

I'd add Vision of Punishment to that - it has issues as Troacctid mentioned, but nausea is one of the best debuffs in the game. Celestial Fortress is nifty - you're rarely going to use one of your precious Level 4 slots on it, though. They get some funky utility stuff that's likely never going to come up, but does give them some options that are harder to find in the lower tiers. Want a lantern archon for some reason? You can nab one if you've got an hour to spare. Heck, you can get a zombie for about an hour and a half a day if there's a corpse handy.

Taking strength damage isn't a good thing for a primary melee attacker, that's definitely true. Lesser Restoration allows them to negate that a bit, but your spells slots are valuable and you probably can't afford to ever prepare more than one copy of Lesser Restoration. When I played a Sohei, I prioritized Wis over Con because those bonus spells are just so valuable for something with spell limited spell slots.

Edit: I think that Hexblade vs. Sohei is very close. And I think the rankings still show that - Sohei is basically the bottom of T4 right now and Hexblade is almost the Top of T5. I never voted on Hexblade, and once I do, I might even give it the same 4.2 that I gave the Sohei.

[Luccan]

Also, of all the classes that get sanctified spells, sohei is the worst at using them. Vision of punishment is fine, but the Strength damage is actually a meaningful drawback for you, and your save DC for it is gonna be only like 13; it's not much better than bless. Luminous armor is not even good; not only will you not have enough CL for it to last all day until like level 16, you also have actual armor proficiency, so you can just wear full plate. Celestial aspect is fine, but getting flight for 5 minutes a day at level 12 is not exactly revolutionary, nor is it much of a power jump compared to the other 3rd level spells on your list. At the same level, hexblades have stinking cloud, invisibility sphere, and charm monster, and they can have two or three of them prepared at the same time.

Bottom line, even with sanctified spells, it's still a worse spell list than the T5 hexblade, and unlike the hexblade, you can't cast your spells spontaneously. You have better armor, but worse BAB, and only slightly better class features. I stand by the 5 that I originally gave it.

Also, I don't know why it's debatable that they get Iaijutsu Focus; doesn't the book clearly say they do? I mean, they can't use it in a ki frenzy, and Cha is a dump stat, but they definitely get it.

I figured the Iaijutsu Focus thing was because it's a 3.0 skill, but given it was never given an updated version yeah it seems obvious they get it. Not that you get a lot of opportunities to use it.

Your best options throughout the day seem to be Iaijutsu Focus (if your skill points and initiative are high enough) round one, then ki frenzy, repeat each encounter until out of ki frenzy, then slightly buff yourself as you can for the rest of the day. Your spells per day are limited and you don't really start getting utility spells until level 8, though that second bit is probably in your favor since you are so limited in daily spells.

[zfs]

I figured the Iaijutsu Focus thing was because it's a 3.0 skill, but given it was never given an updated version yeah it seems obvious they get it. Not that you get a lot of opportunities to use it.

Your best options throughout the day seem to be Iaijutsu Focus (if your skill points and initiative are high enough) round one, then ki frenzy, repeat each encounter until out of ki frenzy, then slightly buff yourself as you can for the rest of the day. Your spells per day are limited and you don't really start getting utility spells until level 8, though that second bit is probably in your favor since you are so limited in daily spells.

As I posted above, they got a 3.5 Update in Dragon Mag. It mostly just gives their Frenzy an actual progression (you get +4/+4, 20 ft speed increase and -1 on flurry at Level 11, no longer fatigued at 17, +6/+6, 30ft speed increase and no penalty on flurries at 20). Also gives them their DR a tad faster and caps out at 5 instead of 4. It doesn't modify their class skill list, so yeah, by RAW they still have it. I'm just not sure all DMs would let that fly.

They're not very good at actually using IF, but since they have one of the worst class skill lists in the game, it makes sense to at least max it out.

[Luccan]

As I posted above, they got a 3.5 Update in Dragon Mag. It mostly just gives their Frenzy an actual progression (you get +4/+4, 20 ft speed increase and -1 on flurry at Level 11, no longer fatigued at 17, +6/+6, 30ft speed increase and no penalty on flurries at 20). Also gives them their DR a tad faster and caps out at 5 instead of 4. It doesn't modify their class skill list, so yeah, by RAW they still have it. I'm just not sure all DMs would let that fly.

I meant the skill specifically, I'm familiar with the OA update. Seems we agree that even if they do get IF it isn't much use to a rage class that wants to dump Charisma.

You still aren't getting the Sanctified Spells you want to use until at least level 8, almost halfway through your career (and around the point many games stop). You can't get your best use out of them until 6-8 levels later, either. They have their uses at lower levels, but it isn't like they replace your actual spell list, which is itself underwhelming.

[zfs]

I meant the skill specifically, I'm familiar with the OA update. Seems we agree that even if they do get IF it isn't much use to a rage class that wants to dump Charisma.

You still aren't getting the Sanctified Spells you want to use until at least level 8, almost halfway through your career (and around the point many games stop). You can't get your best use out of them until 6-8 levels later, either. They have their uses at lower levels, but it isn't like they replace your actual spell list, which is itself underwhelming.

I'm not quite as down on their class spell list as most people are. Yeah, it's really small, but most of the useful spells are at least helping you in your main niche. Your primary thing is going to be doing melee damage and having above average defenses - most of the spells you'd ever prepare either help your melee capability or improve your defenses.

[Luccan]

I'm not quite as down on their class spell list as most people are. Yeah, it's really small, but most of the useful spells are at least helping you in your main niche. Your primary thing is going to be doing melee damage and having above average defenses - most of the spells you'd ever prepare either help your melee capability or improve your defenses.

They're definitely relevant to your class (although I think it's silly they only get Protection from Chaos), they just aren't impressive. It's less the quantity than the quality. It's just a worse Paladin list.

Sohei is definitely not in a higher tier than Hexblade just for having better armor and a third of them at most having access to Sanctified Spells. If it's decided Hexblade is T4, then I'll have nothing further to say, but people seemed resistant to that idea before.

[Karl Aegis]

The early access spells thing is really convenient for your chameleon friend. Not so much a + in a bard versus beguiler debate. Your early access to dominate means we get it at the same time and I can cast it 4 times as often with a higher save DC. And I get 6th level spells before you get 5ths. Again, you get a 5th level spell to compare with my 4 5ths and 6 4ths. And I get a full range of options to use my slots on.

The boots of speed are good for you because your battle plan appears to be gishing. My battle plan is to be a high tier caster and haste my dominated minions, the party fighters, summons etc. But I’m still happy for you to use boots and for me to get a wand of shivering touch. Dust of Disappearance is 3500 per use. Please duplicate my 4th level spells with a 3500/use item. I can buy a new wand every adventure just on what you are spending duplicating my spells. I can actually buy an 8th level scroll for every use of dust. You get a wand of glibness. I’ll get a wand of alter self. You are literally spending money to duplicate my primary spells then more money to deal with all the corner case spells I get for free as a full caster, then pretending I won’t spend money to get sorcerer or cleric wands, because I already have glibness/see invisible/tongues/clairvoyance etc on tap.



Clearly. Your default average op bard seems to use a dozen obscure sourcebooks. I beat it with core + C Div.

.

You are copying your own class features (and mine) with items. I am using the best class feature in the game... full 9th casting, to do the same things every other full caster does. I also have some handy class features you lack, like trapfinding, which let me do the party skillmonkey job better than a bard can. So that’s somewhere else you will need to play catch-up with feats or money.

Right back at you.

[Sutr]

So the generic warrior seems to be a fighter with some good variant feats, the ability to take all non-fighter feats and better class skills.

The generic expert seems not so good to me, it can replicate a worse rogue, with admittedly better class skills, but less skill points. Its first 4 levels rock but then it starts getting a bonus feat after every 4 levels according to the SRD. In the other thread they had the fewest votes and not much discussion does anyone think the generic expert is actually good? I think it might be a 5 would rather feat rogue.

Not a vote but trying to generate a discussion.

[Troacctid]

I think it's close enough to rogue that it keeps pace even in the levels where it's behind, and there's a solid chunk of levels where I would say it's significantly ahead.

[Sutr]

I think it's close enough to rogue that it keeps pace even in the levels where it's behind, and there's a solid chunk of levels where I would say it's significantly ahead.

Sorry to assume we are talking about sneak attack but listing it anyway is this significantly ahead?
Ahead 1,2,8,16
Even 3,4,9,10,17,18
Behind 5,6,7,11,12,13,14,15,19,20

Level 15 should be ahead but while it qualifies for greater sneak attack it doesn't have a generic feat to take it.

To do this we need to take sneak attack at level one where the rogue got trapfinding for free, so we probably take that at 2, then at 4 we either get evasion or uncanny dodge, it will take us to 12 to get the other one where the rogue evasion and a rogue special ability and has a faster progression of the ability at this point then the bonus feats the expert gets. I'm open to other ways to use those feats in a better way though.

In exchange for these levels generic expert has better saves (in an optimized environment I assume it will be fort will), better class skills, but less skill points and proficiencies. I think you are correct that its not enough to make it tier 5, but maybe not 4.


On the warrior getting 6 skills of choice just seems a huge boost, along with choose your own feats with the option to take sneak attack. It might miss some fighter only feats and fighter ACFs but probably not by much, and I think something good can be done with it.

[Anthrowhale]

The generic classes seem best when they aren't used to simply replicate existing classes. For example, the expert might take Sneak attack+9d6, Trapfinding, Smite Evil, and (Improved) Two-Weapon Fighting as class features. Use normal feat slots to augment with Craven, Darkstalker, Precise strike, Power Attack, Exalted Strike, Devoted Inquisitor, and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Then add Iajutsu Focus, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Tumble, Search, Disable Device, UMD as class skills.

The net effect is a killer scout/striker. You can sneak up on most things and have options to hit high AC opponents(Precise Strike), Low AC opponents extra hard (power attack), surprised opponents (Iajutsu Focus), and evil opponents (Smite Evil, Sacred Strike) including action denial (Devoted Inquisitor), up to 7 attacks/round. A rogue is not quite as good since they don't get as many relevant class features.

[zfs]

They're definitely relevant to your class (although I think it's silly they only get Protection from Chaos), they just aren't impressive. It's less the quantity than the quality. It's just a worse Paladin list.

Sohei is definitely not in a higher tier than Hexblade just for having better armor and a third of them at most having access to Sanctified Spells. If it's decided Hexblade is T4, then I'll have nothing further to say, but people seemed resistant to that idea before.

Yeah it's a shame they don't get Protection from Evil - they can get Magic Circle Against Evil form Celestial Fortress, but that has limited utility since it's anchored on a 20x20 structure. Sohei is an odd case where, when tiering it, I think you need to account for Sanctified Spells - like you said, they're not an ACF, so most builds could have them - but in practice, not every Sohei is going to want to play Exalted.

I agree that Sohei and Hexblade should almost certainly be in the same tier. I'll look through the original Hexblade voting and see what the objections to it being T4 were.

Unlike Sanctified Spells, I'm not sure Corrupt Spells really do much to boost the Hexblade. Lahm's Finger Darts can be nasty if you have a way to heal ability damage - but the surefire way there is a Binder dip, and that falls outside the tiering exercise. Actually, there's no mechanical penalty specified for wielding a weapon with less than your full five fingers, is there?

[Luccan]

Yeah it's a shame they don't get Protection from Evil - they can get Magic Circle Against Evil form Celestial Fortress, but that has limited utility since it's anchored on a 20x20 structure. Sohei is an odd case where, when tiering it, I think you need to account for Sanctified Spells - like you said, they're not an ACF, so most builds could have them - but in practice, not every Sohei is going to want to play Exalted.

I agree that Sohei and Hexblade should almost certainly be in the same tier. I'll look through the original Hexblade voting and see what the objections to it being T4 were.

Unlike Sanctified Spells, I'm not sure Corrupt Spells really do much to boost the Hexblade. Lahm's Finger Darts can be nasty if you have a way to heal ability damage - but the surefire way there is a Binder dip, and that falls outside the tiering exercise. Actually, there's no mechanical penalty specified for wielding a weapon with less than your full five fingers, is there?

I don't think Hexblades need Corrupt spells to be as good or better than Sohei, though. Their native list has a decent mix of buffs, debuffs, and utility. And it feels a lot less like their spells and class abilities are trying to make up for their weaknesses instead of giving more options and focusing in on what they're good at.

The spell says a hand with one or no fingers is useless, but otherwise no there isn't a penalty for missing fingers afaik.

[zfs]

I don't think Hexblades need Corrupt spells to be as good or better than Sohei, though. Their native list has a decent mix of buffs, debuffs, and utility. And it feels a lot less like their spells and class abilities are trying to make up for their weaknesses instead of giving more options and focusing in on what they're good at.

The spell says a hand with one or no fingers is useless, but otherwise no there isn't a penalty for missing fingers afaik.

Their list is great for debuffing (to the point I'd say their primary niche is debuffer, not melee damage), pretty good for utility, but I'm not as sold on the gish spells it gets - until you get level 4 spells, because then you get polymorph. I would think until then Sohei is keeping pretty even in melee damage output, since Ki Frenzy to some extent makes up for the levels when you have one less iterative.

I like the idea of wielding a two-handed weapon with only two fingers on each hand and taking no penalty for it.

[Troacctid]

I don't think sanctified spells affect the sohei's tier. Its progression is too slow, it has too few spells per day, and they're not enough better than its normal spells. With healers, it makes a more substantial difference because you're a full caster and your default list is all healing, all the time, so sanctified spells are more timely and more impactful. With soheis, it's barely a blip.

Hexblades are worse than paladins. I think we can all agree on that, right? Paladins were considered borderline by a lot of people, and if it's close for paladin, hexblade doesn't stand a chance. Also, hexblade is just kinda bad? It has bad class features and doesn't really have what it needs to be good at its job. Its spellcasting is too slow and nerfed to meaningfully prop it up, and unlike rangers with their skills and animal friends or paladins with their special mounts, hexblades don't have anything else going on to make up for it. (Curses definitely don't count.)

[Luccan]

I don't think sanctified spells affect the sohei's tier. Its progression is too slow, it has too few spells per day, and they're not enough better than its normal spells. With healers, it makes a more substantial difference because you're a full caster and your default list is all healing, all the time, so sanctified spells are more timely and more impactful. With soheis, it's barely a blip.

Hexblades are worse than paladins. I think we can all agree on that, right? Paladins were considered borderline by a lot of people, and if it's close for paladin, hexblade doesn't stand a chance. Also, hexblade is just kinda bad? It has bad class features and doesn't really have what it needs to be good at its job. Its spellcasting is too slow and nerfed to meaningfully prop it up, and unlike rangers with their skills and animal friends or paladins with their special mounts, hexblades don't have anything else going on to make up for it. (Curses definitely don't count.)

I'd be comfortable with both Sohei and Hexblade in upper Tier 5, but right now they're split. That's my main issue.

Hexblades do get familiars and unlike Wizards and Sorcerers they can really benefit from Improved Familiar since their HP is significantly higher. Choosing one with a debuff (there are a few options) can help in the Hexblade's niche.

[zfs]

Hexblades are worse than paladins. I think we can all agree on that, right? Paladins were considered borderline by a lot of people, and if it's close for paladin, hexblade doesn't stand a chance.

Sure, but Paladin isn't the bottom of Tier 4. With the current system that allows fractional votes, there's room to be worse than the Paladin and still a T4 by assent.

[Hish]

Hexblade and Sohei are close enough to be the same tier, and that tier is T5.

Sanctified/corrupt spells aren't enough to raise the tier, at least not with that few slots and the cut CL. Look at Luminous Armor. The Sohei can't cast it at all until 8th level, and can't keep it up all day until level 10, assuming Wis investment and an 8 hour adventuring day. Greater luminous armor doesn't come online until level 14, and doesn't last all day until 16th.

The base spell lists are pretty good, but again, the lack of slots, CL, and splat support really cuts down on their usefulness.

Sohei doesn't really have actual features.
Ki Frenzy makes up for the lost iterative, but the lost attack bonus and the penalty for flurry really hurt your to hit. AND you don't get enough uses for the day until level 11, so you're just outa luck. The rest of the class features are purely defensive.

[Lans]

The Sohei's spell list is terrible, the ranger has like 8 spells from the srd at 1st level that are useful outside of the fringiest of fringes, and the sohei has like 8 total

[zfs]

Hexblade and Sohei are close enough to be the same tier, and that tier is T5.

Sanctified/corrupt spells aren't enough to raise the tier, at least not with that few slots and the cut CL. Look at Luminous Armor. The Sohei can't cast it at all until 8th level, and can't keep it up all day until level 10, assuming Wis investment and an 8 hour adventuring day. Greater luminous armor doesn't come online until level 14, and doesn't last all day until 16th.

The base spell lists are pretty good, but again, the lack of slots, CL, and splat support really cuts down on their usefulness.

Sohei doesn't really have actual features.
Ki Frenzy makes up for the lost iterative, but the lost attack bonus and the penalty for flurry really hurt your to hit. AND you don't get enough uses for the day until level 11, so you're just outa luck. The rest of the class features are purely defensive.

The frenzy penalty hurts, though for half of your career it's only a -1. The reason I like Luminous Armor in the first place is because it actually lets you benefit from the two features of Ki Frenzy that most Sohei's wouldn't get much use out of, the Dex bonus and the movement increase. If you're going to build heavily around using Sanctified Spells, it's probably worth taking Practiced Spellcaster as your 9th level feat. Having to spend cross class ranks on Spellcraft isn't a huge deal because Sohei has a pathetic class skill list - Iaijutsu Focus and Concentration would be the only ones worth putting ranks in. So at least you can have Luminous Armor up for a full 8 hour adventuring day.

The Sohei's spell list is terrible, the ranger has like 8 spells from the srd at 1st level that are useful outside of the fringiest of fringes, and the sohei has like 8 total

I'd argue it's closer to 12 than 8, but you're usually going to be preparing the same handful of spells. Sanctified Spells are the thing which give them a bit of breadth. So often classes get consigned to lower tiers because there are portions of the game that they just have no in-class way to meaningfully interact with. If people think that for the Sohei it's too little too late, I think that's fair. But I don't agree that it doesn't merit any consideration when it comes to potentially affecting tier placement. Flight, minion creation (Animate with the Spirit and Create Lantern Archon to a much much lesser extent), a save or suck, extremely limited divination (Path of the Exalted), creating a defensive encampment, unerring force damage, spying on telepathy...most of T5 just can't interact with the game in these ways at all. If it is T5, I think it's probably the top of the tier.

Some of their spells really shift in usefulness as you level. Weapon Bless is potentially usable as soon as you get it, but you're never going to prepare it at higher levels. Attraction, on the other hand, probably maxes out in usefulness around the 9-11 range, where it acts as a nice force multiplier for a party that has a blender or two. Vision of Punishment probably isn't worth preparing at low levels because you're only getting a one round duration and you won't want your only spell of the day to be something that can be saved against - at the middle levels, especially with Practiced Spellcaster, it's finally got a duration that can effectively take on enemy out of a battle.