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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Designing a sea faring Naga/Yuanti/Snake Person civilization

    I want to create a civilization of seafaring merchant-slaver snake-people for a campaign setting I am creating. I am trying to figure out how their physical design might make their civilization different from a humanoid one. Ideally, I want them to be a navally dominant civilization. (With this dominance threatened/declining with the human discovery of gunpowder).

    Physical Description: They are 10-12 feet long head to tail. The first three feet of the body is a scaly, humanoid torso. The rest of the body is a snake (perhaps anaconda) midriff and tail.

    How might the Naga body-shape affect the following? :
    1. Ship design:
    • The Naga are probably better swimmers than their humanoid counterparts. I think they could design a ship suited to their bodies, but it would
      probably look very different from a caravel or galley. (For example, human-style oars would physically not work for them. Sails/masts would probably have a different shape as well).

    • For warfare, I imagine them building large fleets of small, maneuverable vessels. ( They might look like scaled-up versions of Polynesian ships). The purpose of these ships would be to get close enough to allow Naga marines to swim up an enemy vessel and sink/capture it.

    • (If anyone has suggestions for Rennaissance level water-proof weapons that they could use for this sort of action, let me know).

    • In peacetime, I imagine that they would similar ship designs for cargo transport. They could mitigate risk by dividing cargo amongst many small ships instead of one large boat.

    • I would appreciate any thoughts or alternative suggestions.

    2. Warfare and Raids
    • Naval Raids: I want them to frequently engage in Viking-style looting and slaving raids against the humanoid civilizations, but I don't know if that makes physical sense. Assuming equivalent levels of magic+tech, would a snake body be able to move fast enough to catch up a fleeing human? Assuming we give it enough strength, would it be able to drag a resisting human to the boats, or would its snake tail make that movement too awkward? If they can't do the physical raids themselves (without an absurd amount of author fiat), then I would have them use humanoid (human, dwarf, and/or elvish) mercenaries instead, which means I would have to create a much more integrated society then I had originally planned for.

    • Larger Scale Battles: In a one on one fight, the Naga would be deadly. At close range, they simply constrict their opponents to death. At medium range, they could use spears and cobra-style strikes to great effect. At long range, they have a slight disadvantage because they are a large target, but they can still dodge in unexpected ways. I don't know what sort of tactics they might employ for large scale battles and would appreciate suggestions.

    • Cavalry: I think a Naga body would be too heavy/awkward to ride a horse normally. On their home peninsula + islands, I think they could use chariots, but those are not easy to transport over the ocean. If the other civs have calvary reserves patrolling the coastlines, are hit and run style raids still feasible for them?

    3. Farming
    • I imagine that they would be very dependant on aquatic farming and rice farming.
    • On land, I don't know how easily they could do normal farming tasks and herding tasks.

    4. Architecture and construction:
    • Does anyone have any thoughts on how a Naga body-type might affect architecture and city design? Could they carry/ drag heavy loads as easily as the humanoid races could?

    If anyone can think of any other implications that a half-snake/half-human body might have on civilization or culture, let me know.

    Other Setting Notes
    Tech Level: Early Rennessaince Equivalent
    Magic Level: Magic is difficult to use, unreliable, but powerful. Think of the Warhammer Fantasy setting for an equivalent.
    Local Climate: They in a semi-tropical peninsula and archipelago covered in grasslands, swamps and mangrove forests

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Designing a sea faring Naga/Yuanti/Snake Person civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by amkirkla View Post
    For warfare, I imagine them building large fleets of small, maneuverable vessels. ( They might look like scaled-up versions of Polynesian ships). The purpose of these ships would be to get close enough to allow Naga marines to swim up an enemy vessel and sink/capture it.
    Bigger ships have certain advantages in naval warfare over smaller ones - like ramming - which is an issue. Also, your naga might face some difficulties boarding a ship. While a snake-like body enables one to climb poles with ease, the much greater body mass might make it impossible for them to lift themselves hand over hand, which could make shipboarding rather difficult.

    In peacetime, I imagine that they would similar ship designs for cargo transport. They could mitigate risk by dividing cargo amongst many small ships instead of one large boat.
    Your Naga have bodies larger than humans and cannot easily sleep in hammocks like a human crew. So they would probably want to minimize crew requirements or find some other way to reduce space constraints (this partly depends on culture, if your naga are willing to curl up together en masse like some actual serpents then this isn't an issue).

    Naval Raids: I want them to frequently engage in Viking-style looting and slaving raids against the humanoid civilizations, but I don't know if that makes physical sense. Assuming equivalent levels of magic+tech, would a snake body be able to move fast enough to catch up a fleeing human? Assuming we give it enough strength, would it be able to drag a resisting human to the boats, or would its snake tail make that movement too awkward? If they can't do the physical raids themselves (without an absurd amount of author fiat), then I would have them use humanoid (human, dwarf, and/or elvish) mercenaries instead, which means I would have to create a much more integrated society then I had originally planned for.
    Snakes, when their bodies are at a suitable temperature (which would not likely be an issue as I assume your naga will be endothermic instead) can be quite swift, and a scaled up naga form could reasonably move at human speeds without stressing fantasy physics all that much. They probably wouldn't win a straight line race, but they would have advantages in dense terrain with lots of obstacles. Their drag strength would actually probably be far greater than that of an equivalent sized human due to greater leverage and probably greater body mass, but the actual motion might be quite awkward. The real movement difficulty would be rapid directional shifts - a snake can thrash about rapidly, but to move in a new direction involves turning the whole body, not just an ankle.

    Larger Scale Battles: In a one on one fight, the Naga would be deadly. At close range, they simply constrict their opponents to death. At medium range, they could use spears and cobra-style strikes to great effect. At long range, they have a slight disadvantage because they are a large target, but they can still dodge in unexpected ways. I don't know what sort of tactics they might employ for large scale battles and would appreciate suggestions.
    Constriction is actually unlikely to be a useful battlefield tactic (though it may be very effective for hunting), slowly wrapping coils around an opponent who is actively stabbing you isn't going to work all that well and it would be quite difficult to properly armor a lengthy snake body. They would be more effective as heavy infantry in close formation, because they can get low for maximum leverage and form an exceedingly close shield wall. They would have a disadvantage against archers because their larger bodies would be difficult to armor effectively. They would, of course, have a huge advantage in wetland or otherwise extremely rugged terrain (seen The Outlaw King? - the final battle is pretty much the ideal naga fight scenario). As raiders the naga would presumably prefer to attack from rivers, or through salt marshes, mangroves, and similar terrain accordingly.

    Cavalry: I think a Naga body would be too heavy/awkward to ride a horse normally. On their home peninsula + islands, I think they could use chariots, but those are not easy to transport over the ocean. If the other civs have calvary reserves patrolling the coastlines, are hit and run style raids still feasible for them?
    Infantry that stand in line and hold position can defeat shock cavalry with ease - and the firmly rooted naga would be even better at this than human equivalents. They would, however, be extremely vulnerable to horse archers, though this is a threat a primarily island-dwelling civilization would only rarely encounter. They could, however, ride elephants into battle without difficulty - elephants being skilled swimmers too.

    Note that, in a fantasy setting non-traditional mounts are possible and even quite likely. Naga could utilize crocodile cavalry, for example.

    I imagine that they would be very dependant on aquatic farming and rice farming.
    On land, I don't know how easily they could do normal farming tasks and herding tasks.
    Snakes are natural obligate carnivores and cannot process grain of any kind. So you're going to have to finesse their diet rather significantly. Wet rice agriculture is dependent more on soil and weather patterns (in monsoon areas, for instance, there has to be enough time between wet seasons to allow the crop to ripen) than anything else, but there are a variety of other crops that are cultivated on islands besides rice - mostly tubers (taro being the big one).

    While the naga might have difficulty with plowing, they might actually be better at other agricultural tasks simply because a serpentine body bends easier than a human one (agricultural labor is described a 'back-breaking' for a very specific reason). So crops that aren't plowed - such as deepwater rice - would be ideal. They would also likely be able to harvest tree crops grown in orchards very effectively.

    Does anyone have any thoughts on how a Naga body-type might affect architecture and city design? Could they carry/ drag heavy loads as easily as the humanoid races could?
    Ramps instead of stairs seems a fairly obvious consideration. Also they would probably prefer wide doors and entrances and encourage room design that allows them to coil in place easily. I imagine large mostly circular structures with limited internal differentiation, possibly built on stilts in wetland areas.

    If anyone can think of any other implications that a half-snake/half-human body might have on civilization or culture, let me know.
    Do you want live birth or eggs? Live birth makes more sense - and is already found in large snakes like anacondas so you're not straining biology that much - though it's likely to mean you have strongly divided gender roles in a primarily naval culture.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Designing a sea faring Naga/Yuanti/Snake Person civilization

    On farming - it's worth keeping in mind that the trophic pyramid biomass distribution for land and sea look pretty much completely different. On land you get the 10-1 ratio, where you have 10 biomass of plants for every biomass of plant eater, 10 biomass of plant eaters for every biomass of primary predator, etc. (keeping in mind that the pyramid is messy and there's lots of things that occupy multiple levels.

    The ocean doesn't work like that, instead being top heavy. The 10-1 ratio only applies to flows, where 10 times as much biomass grows and is eaten in level N as in level N+1, mostly starting with zooplankton and algae at the bottom. For stocks you get a more inverted pyramid, where there is way more biomass in fish than algae, and in big predators than in smaller prey fish. This also tends to apply to rivers, though there's more variation there.

    So, how does this relate to farming? It suggests that the farm shouldn't be the basis of food - instead, that should be the managed fishery. Set up large net based fisheries on currents, where food is swept through (tiny zooplankton), but fish aren't. Slightly inland you also have lake fisheries, wetland fisheries (though this might be an exception to the rule, where farming actually works), etc.

    Note that I'm assuming that they're not just sea faring, but effectively amphibious. If they're land based but just marginally better swimmers this analysis applies a lot less.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: Designing a sea faring Naga/Yuanti/Snake Person civilization

    Please note, I tend to answer from a "makes the story interesting" rather than a strict "makes most sense" POV.
    Quote Originally Posted by amkirkla View Post
    Physical Description: They are 10-12 feet long head to tail. The first three feet of the body is a scaly, humanoid torso. The rest of the body is a snake (perhaps anaconda) midriff and tail.
    Maybe bulk up the torso so it is proportionally larger for the scale, otherwise you run into perceived square/cube law problems with lifting themselves etc.

    1. Ship design
    Long, thin vessels with limited or no internal decks and a high raised bow. The length is a concession to the crew's bodies and is likely to seem more aesthetically pleasing. It also allows for more cargo/crew space as internal decks will be a problem. Ramps would either need to be very long or annoyingly steep and holes with poles would make getting back up in the rain very hard. The raised bow is to ensure that when you board (and boarding is, I agree, the best tactic to use) you have the height advantage, which was always key in boarding actions and is more so if you can't haul yourself up as easily. it also allows for a ramming prow, but ramming is not an easy tactic without oars. That said I can see tail or arm powered screws or paddle wheels being used to speed, at least over a short distance.


    For warfare, I imagine them building large fleets of small, maneuverable vessels. ( They might look like scaled-up versions of Polynesian ships). The purpose of these ships would be to get close enough to allow Naga marines to swim up an enemy vessel and sink/capture it.
    I disagree for a few reasons. First, larger crew=larger ships. Second, boarding actions need a lot of troops. Third, early gunpowder is unlikely to pose too much of a threat to smaller, manoeuvrable, ships.

    In peacetime, I imagine that they would similar ship designs for cargo transport. They could mitigate risk by dividing cargo amongst many small ships instead of one large boat.
    You are going to want the highest ship volume to crew ration you can get, so again I suggest larger vessels.

    Naval Raids:
    I admit, these seem like a problem, but then again snakes can move surprisingly fast in the right circumstances.

    Larger Scale Battles: In a one on one fight, the Naga would be deadly. At close range, they simply constrict their opponents to death.
    This won't work, but then you consider how good at grappling and swimming snakes can be dumping crew into the water may well prove a better plan.
    At medium range, they could use spears and cobra-style strikes to great effect. At long range, they have a slight disadvantage because they are a large target, but they can still dodge in unexpected ways. I don't know what sort of tactics they might employ for large scale battles and would appreciate suggestions.
    High speed closing and boarding actions is still viable here.

    Cavalry:
    The advantages of cavalry are speed, mass and height. Your sneaple already have all of those. Enemy cavalry is basically having to deal with opposing cavalry that won't spook and shy, throw in archery and cavalry is not really an issue.

    Farming
    Right, I was waiting for this. They are merchant-slavers right? Their bodies do not support agriculture easily. This might explain why they have such a large need of slaves, they are the backbone of the nation's agricultural labour force. It also explains why the society isn't adapting to the increased power of some humanoid groups, they can't adapt away from humanoid farm labour easily.

    Architecture and construction:
    Think vertical. In fact I might consider this for society at large, have a very vertically minded social and cultural metaphor base. The idea home or building (I want to use the term palace as in my mind what you have is a warrior aristocracy and serfs) will be on stilts with access poles about 10ft off the ground to ensure that the proles can't get where they are not wanted and as a defence against revolts/floods.
    Last edited by Evil DM Mark3; 2019-10-17 at 06:49 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Designing a sea faring Naga/Yuanti/Snake Person civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Knaight View Post
    Note that I'm assuming that they're not just sea faring, but effectively amphibious. If they're land based but just marginally better swimmers this analysis applies a lot less.
    I want them to be land based creatures that have created a coastal/sea faring culture. A normal Naga will have the following advantages over humanoids when it comes to swimming:
    • Their serpentine bodies allow them to faster
    • Unlike human skin, immersion in water doesn’t make scales soft, puffy or pruned,.
    • Their scales probably more resistant to wetland parasites such as leaches and mosquitos.
    However:
    • They still need to breath air (no gills), and their lung capacity is equivalent to that of a humanoid.
    Snakes, when their bodies are at a suitable temperature (which would not likely be an issue as I assume your naga will be endothermic instead)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    which would not likely be an issue as I assume your naga will be endothermic instead
    I think will make them warmblooded to keep world building simple on my end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Do you want live birth or eggs? Live birth makes more sense - and is already found in large snakes like anacondas so you're not straining biology that much - though it's likely to mean you have strongly divided gender roles in a primarily naval culture.
    I will probably have them give live birth for the same reason.
    Regarding divided gender roles, would this be based on the argument a society can survive demographically if it loses 90% of its males in a sea raid gone wrong, but not if it loses 45% of its males and 45% of its females? (Certainly, this to make sense), or are there additional factors?

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Designing a sea faring Naga/Yuanti/Snake Person civilization

    At this point, I should talk about their religion, because it affects their biology. [Yes, this is inspired by Lovecraft’s ‘Shadow Over Innsmouth’].

    They worship an ocean god they refer to as ‘The Maw’. The Maw (as at least in the dreams of its worshippers) is a mile-wide abyss or eel-mouth, located in the center of the Southern Sea. The Corral City rings around the edge to the Maw. This city gives shelter to Deep Ones and formerly land-dwelling worshippers, who have mutated to adapt to life under water.

    The Maw’s Hunger is infinite, but so are its gifts.

    Every year, a religious procession sails to the center of South Sea with dozens (hundreds?) of female sentients of childbearing age. (Some of these sacrifices are slaves, others are willing Naga worshippers). The Priests and Priestesses dump these sacrifices into the ocean. A few days later, literal boat loads of gold-colored jewelry, with marked with (un)holy symbols of the Maw, will float to the surface.
    If worshipper takes this piece of jewelry, washes it a mixture of seawater and their own blood, and wears it, they will receive the protection of Maw. This has the following positive effects:

    • Better luck sailing (calmer weather, no trouble from sea monsters ect)
    • Better luck fishing (more productive catches, useful items will wash ashore when you are new oceans, lakes and rivers).
    • Better luck in general
    • Swimming and holding one’s breath are far easier
    • Priests and Priestess may access pathfinder first edition spell lists eldritch magic

    However, it also has the following effects:
    • They feel a desire to live near the sea and swim in the ocean
    • Worshippers will, on rare occasions, have days where they feel infinite hunger that nothing can satisfy. On these days they receive no nourishment from the food they eat.
    • They will sometimes dream of the Maw and the City of Corral
    • On rare occasions they receive fleeting urges to drown themselves and/or others in the ocean.
    • Over many years, they develop fish-like features. (Big, bulging eyes, webbing between the fingers and toes, gills). As they age becomes less interested in affairs on land and become more obsessed with swimming to the City of Corral.
    It is rare for a Naga to die of old age. Instead, they usually dive into the ocean, and start swimming towards the Coral City. Worshippers call this act ‘The Final Pilgrimage’. They believe that the Maw grants his worshippers protection and eternal life on this ‘Pilgrimage’.


    Other fluff notes
    • Most humanoids mistakenly believe that these periods of extreme hunger, the slow growth of amphibian features, and the obsession with the sea, are natural parts of Naga biology.
    • Many sailors from human/humanoid cultures also secretly worship the Maw, although such worship is officially forbidden in most of these societies
    • If the sacrifices are large enough, the priests will receive mundane gold, coral, and pearl jewelry as well. An exceptionally large sacrifice will result in unique and irreplaceable magic items as well.
    • There is an undead pirate faction that has recently begun to worship the Maw, after hearing about from Naga priests, although that’s a topic for another thread.
    • (Sometimes, the Maw will request other types of sacrifices as well. For example, one year, through the power of dreams, it told its priests to obtain a certain set of ancient clay tablets from the land of Kaddeth. The Maw forbade them from reading the tablets, recording their contents, or making copies. The Maw forbade them from allowing anyone else to do so. The Maw commanded that once the recovered the tablets, they were to take them to center of the Southern Sea and drop them into the ocean. In return, it granted them a powerful diadem).
    Last edited by amkirkla; 2019-10-17 at 10:13 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Designing a sea faring Naga/Yuanti/Snake Person civilization

    Why do the serpent people worship the fish god? Snakes have nothing more in common with fish than primates do. The Maw changing people into serpent people other than fish people doesn't make sense to me.
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Designing a sea faring Naga/Yuanti/Snake Person civilization

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Why do the serpent people worship the fish god? Snakes have nothing more in common with fish than primates do. The Maw changing people into serpent people other than fish people doesn't make sense to me.
    I think I worded my post badly. Worshipping the Maw will not turn you in serpent person. Worshipping the Maw turns you into a fish hybrid. Naga who worships the Maw ages into serpent fish hybrid. A human who worships The Maw will age into a human fish hybrid etc. Naga who does not worship the Maw will remain fully Naga throughout his/her entire life.


    I wanted to create a Lovecraftian sea god for them to worship. I thought their relationship with the Maw could reflect a maritime culture's relationship with the sea. The sea provides them with a livelyhood, but at the cost of sailors who die at sea. The Maw provides gifts, but at the cost of sacrifices, and ultimately the lives of its worshippers.
    Last edited by amkirkla; 2019-10-17 at 10:33 PM.

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