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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Post [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    The Kickstarter for Path of the Wilds has ended, and we did not reach our goal. However, we are still continuing with the book and the playtest.
    CLICK HERE to go to the new playtest thread.




    After a long hiatus, Ascension Games is back, with our next product in the “Path” series, Path of the Wilds for Pathfinder 1st edition!

    As with the rest of the Path series, Path of the Wilds focuses on a specific area of magic, in this case, nature. Harnessing elemental spells, plants, animals, weather, terrain, you name it. Spells that chain foes with living storms, erode away artifice, and conjure toxic blooms are just a sampling of what's in store for Path of the Wilds. And just like with Path of Shadows and Path of Iron, this book will cover all aspects of Pathfinder: archetypes, class features, feats, magic items, you name it: we want to make sure there’s plenty of options for any master of the wilds.

    Here's an overview of what you can expect in Path of the Wilds:
    • The elementalist base class, a spellsword that has mastered the forces of air, earth, fire, and water. They can absorb latent energy from their spells to form a powerful planar aegis, letting them switch between spell focus and combat focus at a moment’s notice. They can also convert elemental spells into simplified “twists” for more utility, or combine their spell slots together to reach greater heights of arcane potency.
    • The invoker base class, a mystical warrior that bonds with the spirits of nature. Unlike most “pet” classes like the druid or summoner, the roles for the invoker and his spirit companion are reversed: the invoker players the front-line combatant while his companion casts spells to support him from afar. He can also invoke over a dozen lesser spirits like Tempests Herald and Oncoming Storm and Depths Beckon With Silent Murmurs to grant him unparalleled adaptability in his approach to combat.
    • The warden base class, a verdant protector of nature. The warden is the first line of defense for both nature and his companions, gaining a slew of defensive and support oriented abilities. He creates magical wards that shield allies from harm, and can improve them with natural facets like summer’s heat or river of life to shield against specific threats. His remedy feature grants him a slow-but-steady healing stream, while his mastery of nature’s close-kept secrets gives him new methods of support and further control over his environment.
    • New archetypes and options for existing classes. Play archetypes like the Animist barbarian to summon ancestral totems, or an Elemental Savant sorcerer to learn a wide selection of elemental spells from other classes. Options include new kineticist talents and a new selection of six “primal spirits” for the medium class.
    • Spells for casters that want to evoke nature’s benevolence - or its fury. Turn into a being of light with the solar body spell, or tap into your wild side with the primal fury spell. Gather foes together with a watery vortex, then poison them with a toxic nettle burst.
    • Feats that let you truly master the wilds. Use wild empathy to impart magical suggestion effects on creatures with the Mystic Empathy feat, and track down impossible quarries with the Skilled Tracker feat. Call out your foe’s weaknesses with the Spotter’s Call and take them down with a single Mountain Strike. There of course will be feats to support the new classes, as well, such as Latent Remedy to let wardens grant contingent healing effects and Aegis Strike to give elementalists and extra arcane edge while using their aegis form.
    • A plethora of new magic items and equipment properties. Always have the right element at hand with the cycling weapon property, and entangle foes that attack you with miring armor. Fly upon the wind with the stormlord’s raiment and freeze foes solid with the rimeflower bow.


    Kickstarter and Playtest for Path of the Wilds

    As with Path of Iron, we want to ensure the best quality for the Path series. Ascension Games always uses commissioned art in our books, and we take a painstakingly long time to ensure the rules text is clear, balanced, and - most importantly - fun. In order to make this book come to life, we’re excited to announce that we are launching a Kickstarter for the book today! The campaign will run from October 16th until November 15th. You can find the Kickstarter here.

    You can also check out some of our content previews and updates on the Ascension Games website:



    To go along with the Kickstarter, we are also simultaneously releasing a playtest for the three new classes (elementalist, invoker, and warden). These classes have many atypical mechanics, so thorough testing is a must. You can download the playtest from:



    You can use this thread to discuss the playtest document. You can also add comments to the Google Drive document, or send us feedback directly on the Ascension Games website.

    Thank you for your support, and I hope you are as excited as I am for Path of the Wilds!

    Christopher Moore,
    Ascension Games, LLC
    Last edited by Seginus; 2019-11-16 at 04:05 PM. Reason: Adding Paizo link
    Designer, Author of Ascension Games, LLC

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    Author of Paths of Magic Path of Shadows, Path of Iron, and Path of the Wilds.

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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    This sounds interesting. I'm always down with things that show nature magic as distinct from other kinds of magic.
    The Library of Metzofitz: An up-to-date reference document for all of your Akashic, Path of War, and Psionic needs. In the works: Gonzo and Legendary material.

    Pathfinder Caster Spreadsheet: For when you need to check if there's a spontaneous caster Witch or a Charisma-based Alchemist (the answer is yes). Includes manifesters, initiators, and veilweavers. Now with a colorblind version!

    Akashic Character Sheet: Tracks invested Essence, plenty of space for veils and other Akashic hullabaloo.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Today is the first in a series of previews for Path of the Wilds, starting with new feats! Check it out on the Ascension Games website.
    Designer, Author of Ascension Games, LLC

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    Author of Paths of Magic Path of Shadows, Path of Iron, and Path of the Wilds.

    Get them at the Open Gaming Store, Paizo.com, and DriveThruRPG!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Add-ons are now available! In addition to getting Path of the Wilds, you can get any of our earlier products at a heavy discount when you support the Kickstarter campaign! Check out the new add-ons here.
    Designer, Author of Ascension Games, LLC

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    Author of Paths of Magic Path of Shadows, Path of Iron, and Path of the Wilds.

    Get them at the Open Gaming Store, Paizo.com, and DriveThruRPG!

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    I haven't had the opportunity to playtest these classes yet, but I have read the document pretty thoroughly. I'll try to provide some (scattered, possibly useless) thoughts:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Elementalist: Overall, I'd describe this class as pretty solid. You play similarly to a magus, though with less burst and more consistency.
    • You have a very nice number of skill points, though your class skill list is mediocre at best (Perception and Use Magic Device being the standouts).
    • Aegis Form is an interesting conceit but feels a bit clunky to me, especially given the part that using it completely drains your energy pool regardless of whether you want it to or not. It's not exactly a "nova" until you can start stacking affinity powers to take advantage of those synergy bonuses (which are pretty sweet, mind), and it doesn't last a terribly long time even at high levels, unless you're holding off from using your whole power suite. Kind of like a Barbarian's rage, but not nearly as clear as when you should use it, or for how long.
    • The conversion option for Energy Pool should give more points than it does. At the current conversion rate I'm not really sure why you'd ever use it instead of just casting spells normally, even outside of combat, unless there's a really desperate situation where you can't afford to waste a particular spell. I'd either improve the action economy (and even then, the Warp spell twist is right there if you want to rapidly accumulate points), or increase its spell-to-points efficiency.
    • Spell twists are fine overall, though I don't think it would hurt the class to get them earlier and more often than it does. Given how offensively-inclined this class is, I'd imagine most builds would favor the offensive and debuff twists in favor of the utility and defensive ones, and I like having options.
    • Supremacy makes me think that maybe this class could use a method to bypass energy resistance earlier on, especially given how reliable you are on evocations and affinity powers for damage output.
    • Spell list seems good so far, with a nice mix of utility and combat options, though you're handicapped a little by the need to prepare elemental spells to power your class features, leaving the very nice non-elemental selection out in the cold a bit. It's hard to comment on this in full without the full spell list being available.


    Invoker: This is the most interesting of the classes here for me, conceptually, and also the one I'm most worried about underperforming, mechanically.
    • Starting off, the chassis feels somewhat under-tuned for what seems like it's meant to play like a primary martial character. You have a nice skill list, but barely enough points to take advantage of it. Your BAB and HD are medium-range, and I'm not really sure how your class features are meant to make up for that (more on that in a second). Strong Reflex and Weak Will is also just an odd choice for a class that's all about connecting with the mystic and weird side of the world.
    • Beyond the obvious, I'm not really sure what this class is supposed to do in combat. The obvious answer is the invoker fights with weapons and spirit powers while the companion supports them with magic and occasionally throws out a laser beam. But in practical play, most spirit powers are pretty anemic offensively, you have medium BAB and no inherent means of enhancing yourself or your weapons, and I'm not sure the action economy benefits from the spirit companion make up the difference. Spirit blast is mediocre at best and awful at worst on the damage output front, and the spell list doesn't offer a lot of good combat buffs like I was expecting going in. Maybe your invocations make up the difference, but I've read through a number of them and I'm not sure if I see it.
    • Speaking of invocations - I'm assuming the main draw of this class is its day-to-day flexibility. You can be a frontline tank one day, a battlefield controller the next, and a skirmish fighter the day after that. Cool in theory, but a good portion of the invocations just lack punch to me, and they scale pretty slowly across your entire career, not to mention you can get hamstrung by the Dominion/Oath limitations of the ability if you aren't careful (and I'm not totally confident that all of the Dominion/Oath combinations you could choose have the same levels of synergy).
    • Going off of the above, daily flexibility has its limits, a problem that also manifests in the Binder/Pactmaker that this class definitely seems to draw some ideas from. Sure, theoretically you have all these abilities on tap whenever you want, but your stats, gear, and feat choices aren't nearly as mutable, which can limit the number of roles your character is actually capable of filling. Build to be a melee fighter? Sucks to be you if one of your chosen Invocation options wants to push you towards a controller or ranged role.
    • Overall, I think this class would benefit from a closer side-to-side comparison with the summoner, which seems to me to be the most similar class Paizo has to offer to the invoker. I'm not sure the invoker themselves stacks up well in a fight compared to an eidolon, and I definitely don't think that the spirit companion is as powerful as the summoner themselves. Granted, the summoner is kind of overtuned, but I think the invoker might go too far in the other direction.


    Warden: This class has the least frills and fiddly bits of the three, and is probably the one I'd be the most comfortable using in actual play. You have a solid niche as a tank/support hybrid and play into that role well.
    • Your chassis is fine overall. It feels built pretty similarly to a Barbarian or Slayer, which are probably this class's closest comparison points in play.
    • Insightful Defense is a nice concept. The scaling is annoying but necessary to prevent multiclass dipping from exploiting it, I suppose.
    • Remedy feels like it should have a swift-action option for self-targeting, to better match Lay on Hands and Fervor.
    • Secrets are fine overall, though I do feel that it wouldn't hurt to have some of the status-alleviating options baked into the class progression rather than as selectable talents, because they're occupying a lot of option space that could be given to some neat nature powers, of which there are already a nice selection.
    • Wild Step is cool, but both the effect and the action economy are a little lacking for how late you get it. At current, it's really just a repositioning tool, but I feel like it could be more. Not really sure how, exactly. Maybe coupled with a pounce effect so you can be more proactive after teleporting?
    • Overall, I don't have a whole lot to say on this class. It knows what it wants to do and accomplishes it pretty solidly, and that's all you can need sometimes.
    Last edited by KatsOfLoathing; 2019-10-24 at 04:57 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KatsOfLoathing View Post
    I haven't had the opportunity to playtest these classes yet, but I have read the document pretty thoroughly. I'll try to provide some (scattered, possibly useless) thoughts:
    Every bit helps! I'll put my comments for each section.

    Spoiler: Elementalist
    Show
    You have a very nice number of skill points, though your class skill list is mediocre at best (Perception and Use Magic Device being the standouts).
    Funnily enough, feedback on the Paizo forum has suggested it's too many for an INT-based character.
    Aegis Form is an interesting conceit but feels a bit clunky to me, especially given the part that using it completely drains your energy pool regardless of whether you want it to or not. It's not exactly a "nova" until you can start stacking affinity powers to take advantage of those synergy bonuses (which are pretty sweet, mind), and it doesn't last a terribly long time even at high levels, unless you're holding off from using your whole power suite. Kind of like a Barbarian's rage, but not nearly as clear as when you should use it, or for how long.
    It is supposed to be sort of a mode-switch. The fully-emptying the pool was to make the decision have more weight, but so far feedback has been pretty negative on it. I want there to still be some penalty for poor management; the most obvious being maybe losing half your remaining points instead of all.
    The conversion option for Energy Pool should give more points than it does. At the current conversion rate I'm not really sure why you'd ever use it instead of just casting spells normally, even outside of combat, unless there's a really desperate situation where you can't afford to waste a particular spell. I'd either improve the action economy (and even then, the Warp spell twist is right there if you want to rapidly accumulate points), or increase its spell-to-points efficiency.
    "Why you'd use it instead of casting spells normally" is kind of the point. It's to encourage the actual use of the spells as spells rather than just converting them all into points for aegis form. That being said, you bring up a good point about Warp. I'd still rather the most efficient spell-level-to-energy option stay casting the spells, so an improvement to the action economy is the likely path to take.
    Spell twists are fine overall, though I don't think it would hurt the class to get them earlier and more often than it does. Given how offensively-inclined this class is, I'd imagine most builds would favor the offensive and debuff twists in favor of the utility and defensive ones, and I like having options.
    That's consistent with feedback from internal testing and is being considered. How that impacts the overall progression of abilities has yet to be seen, since I'd have to move around a lot to avoid dead levels.
    Supremacy makes me think that maybe this class could use a method to bypass energy resistance earlier on, especially given how reliable you are on evocations and affinity powers for damage output.
    I was considering this but I'm not sure. I think having access to multiple elements helps this a little bit (unlike say, a Fear build that pretty much needs immunity bypass to function at all). And while it's not in the playtest, I was planning on adding some spells to reduce enemy defenses (including resistances) so that might be enough.
    Spell list seems good so far, with a nice mix of utility and combat options, though you're handicapped a little by the need to prepare elemental spells to power your class features, leaving the very nice non-elemental selection out in the cold a bit. It's hard to comment on this in full without the full spell list being available.
    It's an unfortunate side effect of the design, yeah, and not one easily fixable (since just making any spell usable for class features kinda defeats the point of the elemental focus). One of the feat ideas I have floating around is one where you can choose a spell twist, and can then use any spell for that twist (not just the right element). But I've never been a fan of feat-as-fix, since it just introduces another problem of feat tax, especially since this class gets no bonus feats.

    Spoiler: Invoker
    Show
    This is the most interesting of the classes here for me, conceptually, and also the one I'm most worried about underperforming, mechanically.
    This was definitely the hardest one to write. I wouldn't be surprised if there's balance problems.
    Starting off, the chassis feels somewhat under-tuned for what seems like it's meant to play like a primary martial character. You have a nice skill list, but barely enough points to take advantage of it. Your BAB and HD are medium-range, and I'm not really sure how your class features are meant to make up for that (more on that in a second). Strong Reflex and Weak Will is also just an odd choice for a class that's all about connecting with the mystic and weird side of the world.
    The low skill points is partially a balance factor against the fact the companion is a fey, and as such gets 6+HD in skill points. Between the two of you it's quite a lot, even if the spirit's ranks would cap out at 16.

    The strong Fort/Ref was a personal choice. The class takes inspiration from an old favorite JRPG of mine; the character being more soldier than mystic. It also makes it so the spirit and the invoker don't both have the same good saves (and therefor same weakness).

    Beyond the obvious, I'm not really sure what this class is supposed to do in combat. The obvious answer is the invoker fights with weapons and spirit powers while the companion supports them with magic and occasionally throws out a laser beam. But in practical play, most spirit powers are pretty anemic offensively, you have medium BAB and no inherent means of enhancing yourself or your weapons, and I'm not sure the action economy benefits from the spirit companion make up the difference.
    This is definitely a concern of mine. The class does have the avatar form to boost its offense but it's hardly enough times per day for a core strategy. I wanted to avoid spiking the invoker's BAB in any given invocation since that immediately becomes the best choice for a mid-BAB martial, which cramps on the idea of flexibility and choice (I'm already worried about that for the Savage Beast spirit since it grants pseudo-pounce). A lot of that stems from wanting to offset the obvious action economy boost for having a pocket spellcaster, but as you said it might not be enough.
    Spirit blast is mediocre at best and awful at worst on the damage output front, and the spell list doesn't offer a lot of good combat buffs like I was expecting going in. Maybe your invocations make up the difference, but I've read through a number of them and I'm not sure if I see it.
    The spirit blast is more of a backup than the main focus of the spirit; it's not exactly supposed to be a damage powerhouse, but I suppose it could be improved if it's a consistent sticking point. The spell list for each spirit isn't finalized (since there's supposed to be two per spell level rather than one) which might help the second point.
    Speaking of invocations - I'm assuming the main draw of this class is its day-to-day flexibility. You can be a frontline tank one day, a battlefield controller the next, and a skirmish fighter the day after that. Cool in theory, but a good portion of the invocations just lack punch to me, and they scale pretty slowly across your entire career, not to mention you can get hamstrung by the Dominion/Oath limitations of the ability if you aren't careful (and I'm not totally confident that all of the Dominion/Oath combinations you could choose have the same levels of synergy).
    Could you mention any in particular that stand out as weak? Or any that you think are in the right spot, so that others can be compared and adjusted.
    Going off of the above, daily flexibility has its limits, a problem that also manifests in the Binder/Pactmaker that this class definitely seems to draw some ideas from. Sure, theoretically you have all these abilities on tap whenever you want, but your stats, gear, and feat choices aren't nearly as mutable, which can limit the number of roles your character is actually capable of filling. Build to be a melee fighter? Sucks to be you if one of your chosen Invocation options wants to push you towards a controller or ranged role.
    I expected this to be brought up and I'm torn. On the one hand, since you're limited to a single Oath for invocations you can generally focus around offense/defense/control for feats, despite being able to change spirits. But on the other, you can still go very different routes within a single Oath (like natural attacks for Savage Beasts and Combat Maneuvers for Crashing Waves). I'm hesitant to just hand out some bonus feats since, to me, the spirit companion essentially acts as "bonus" feats for you since it can dedicate its feats to spellcasting, and I view the class as already getting a lot. But, based on your feedback, maybe I'm overvaluing the class's current capabilities.

    There's always the option of just making it a full-BAB for more hit/HP, but I dunno. That's probably the last thing I'd try

    Overall, I think this class would benefit from a closer side-to-side comparison with the summoner, which seems to me to be the most similar class Paizo has to offer to the invoker. I'm not sure the invoker themselves stacks up well in a fight compared to an eidolon, and I definitely don't think that the spirit companion is as powerful as the summoner themselves. Granted, the summoner is kind of overtuned, but I think the invoker might go too far in the other direction.
    Pretty much the #1 priority when writing the rules out for this class was "It has to be weaker than summoner," since it's largely considered OP. I think your point about it being too far in the other direction might be true, though. My fear of repeating the mistakes of summoner might have made me too cautious, and having over 100 spirit combinations made me seriously wary of creating any OP synergies.

    Spoiler: Warden
    Show
    Insightful Defense is a nice concept. The scaling is annoying but necessary to prevent multiclass dipping from exploiting it, I suppose.
    Pretty much, yeah. Don't need Clerics dipping in for +WIS to AC for one level and whatnot.
    Remedy feels like it should have a swift-action option for self-targeting, to better match Lay on Hands and Fervor.
    Internal tests has similar concerns; they felt they never had a good time to use it when it'd be better to just keep attacking. Granted that's a common complaint with Pathfinder's heal/attack debacle in general, but still.

    I was trying to avoid parallels to the Paladin; didn't want it to seem like just a remix of the class with a nature theme. Part of the trade was supposed to be instead of the swift-action self enhancement it has the ranged boost for others, but it might not be worthwhile.

    Secrets are fine overall, though I do feel that it wouldn't hurt to have some of the status-alleviating options baked into the class progression rather than as selectable talents, because they're occupying a lot of option space that could be given to some neat nature powers, of which there are already a nice selection.
    Originally the secrets were two abilities: Remedy Lore (upgrades to remedy) and Eyes of the Wild (a handful of spell-like divinations). They got combined and expanded into Secrets to give more choice to the player, and, as mentioned above, to avoid the obvious comparisons to paladin (who gets Mercies as a fixed requirement in its class).
    Wild Step is cool, but both the effect and the action economy are a little lacking for how late you get it. At current, it's really just a repositioning tool, but I feel like it could be more. Not really sure how, exactly. Maybe coupled with a pounce effect so you can be more proactive after teleporting?
    It is supposed to be more for repositioning, yeah, not quite for offense (the whole class avoids straight offense in most cases, aside from the bonus feats). I definitely don't want to give pounce but I'll consider giving something else to make it more of an attractive feature.
    Overall, I don't have a whole lot to say on this class. It knows what it wants to do and accomplishes it pretty solidly, and that's all you can need sometimes.
    I echo your sentiment that it's the one I'm most confident in balance-wise. Aside from a facet or two (the power-level of Eye of the Storm is up there) there's nothing here that should be difficult to incorporate into a campaign...hopefully.
    Designer, Author of Ascension Games, LLC

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Why not use a google doc like most other playtests? I see lots of errors with words missing but it's a pain to comment all of them.

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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldaran View Post
    Why not use a google doc like most other playtests? I see lots of errors with words missing but it's a pain to comment all of them.
    Habit, I suppose. I usually only put out public documents that have the Ascension Game's format rather than plain text.

    I'll put up a google doc version for those that would prefer it, though it might not be until Saturday; got an early Halloween event to go to tomorrow right after work.
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seginus View Post
    Habit, I suppose. I usually only put out public documents that have the Ascension Game's format rather than plain text.

    I'll put up a google doc version for those that would prefer it, though it might not be until Saturday; got an early Halloween event to go to tomorrow right after work.
    Interestingly i am ready for disappointment in this book some how it doesn't feel me with enough confidence to put money in.
    I prefer you guys to put google doc to but i appritiate the free pdf.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Shadow View Post
    Threads are like cats. They go where they want, and never listen to what you want them to do.


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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seginus View Post
    Every bit helps! I'll put my comments for each section.
    Thanks for the prompt and detailed reply! I think we're more-or-less agreed on the Warden, so I'll skip that one.

    Spoiler: Elementalist
    Show

    Funnily enough, feedback on the Paizo forum has suggested it's too many for an INT-based character.
    To compare with the other medium BAB, INT-based classes, you get more than a Magus, the same as an Alchemist, and less than an Investigator. I'd say you're fine.
    It is supposed to be sort of a mode-switch. The fully-emptying the pool was to make the decision have more weight, but so far feedback has been pretty negative on it. I want there to still be some penalty for poor management; the most obvious being maybe losing half your remaining points instead of all.
    Not being able to cast spells except for twists while your aegis is active is a pretty big balancing point already. As it is, I can really only see two times in an adventuring day when you'd use your aegis: at the start of the day to conserve spells, and as a pseudo-nova at the end of the day when you're running low on your big hitters. More flexibility than that wouldn't go unappreciated.
    "Why you'd use it instead of casting spells normally" is kind of the point. It's to encourage the actual use of the spells as spells rather than just converting them all into points for aegis form. That being said, you bring up a good point about Warp. I'd still rather the most efficient spell-level-to-energy option stay casting the spells, so an improvement to the action economy is the likely path to take.
    I'm not sure that logic tracks for me. Obviously you'd rather actually cast the spells than just burn them on your aegis form: combat buffs are never going to match the versatility or utility of spells. If players aren't meant to go to the Conversion option except as a last-ditch solution, why include it at all?
    That's consistent with feedback from internal testing and is being considered. How that impacts the overall progression of abilities has yet to be seen, since I'd have to move around a lot to avoid dead levels.
    If you moved the progression to starting at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, you'd gain three empty levels (3rd, 9th, and 15th). This class isn't exactly bloated with class features; I don't think one or two ribbons to fill in the empty space would kill anyone.
    I was considering this but I'm not sure. I think having access to multiple elements helps this a little bit (unlike say, a Fear build that pretty much needs immunity bypass to function at all). And while it's not in the playtest, I was planning on adding some spells to reduce enemy defenses (including resistances) so that might be enough.
    Fair enough.
    It's an unfortunate side effect of the design, yeah, and not one easily fixable (since just making any spell usable for class features kinda defeats the point of the elemental focus). One of the feat ideas I have floating around is one where you can choose a spell twist, and can then use any spell for that twist (not just the right element). But I've never been a fan of feat-as-fix, since it just introduces another problem of feat tax, especially since this class gets no bonus feats.
    Yeah, I can see how it would be hard to fix without adjusting how the whole class functions. I wouldn't be against such a feat, but I don't know what the Elementalist feats are planned to look like in general, so I guess the ball's in your court.

    Spoiler: Invoker
    Show
    [B]The low skill points is partially a balance factor against the fact the companion is a fey, and as such gets 6+HD in skill points. Between the two of you it's quite a lot, even if the spirit's ranks would cap out at 16./B]
    Your companion has pretty cruddy stats to actually use those skills, usually can't have as high a bonus as a comparative PC due to its HD caps, and might struggle in a face role in certain campaigns on account of being a fey. While the balance point of this class is obviously the summoner, I found myself comparing it more than once to the ranger, another martial/pet hybrid class, but one with full BAB and 6+Int skill points.
    This is definitely a concern of mine. The class does have the avatar form to boost its offense but it's hardly enough times per day for a core strategy. I wanted to avoid spiking the invoker's BAB in any given invocation since that immediately becomes the best choice for a mid-BAB martial, which cramps on the idea of flexibility and choice (I'm already worried about that for the Savage Beast spirit since it grants pseudo-pounce). A lot of that stems from wanting to offset the obvious action economy boost for having a pocket spellcaster, but as you said it might not be enough.
    Avatar form has an action cost, only lasts a minute so you can't even have it up before combat most of the time, and doesn't actually grant very good bonuses, to the point that I think it might actually make you weaker than normal due to the action economy loss. And speaking of action economy: you have it better than a normal PC, but what are you actually doing with it? Your spirit companion can't fight in melee, its spirit blasts will never be a big damage contributor, and it only has 4th-level casting from a not-particularly-strong list. I've seen optimization threads suggest that your damage output should be at least 1d6 per odd character level to be competitive in a fight, and I think this class just about breaks even with that, if you're using offensive spirit powers every turn, if your spirit companion is attacking instead of casting spells, if you're making every attack successfully, and if the enemy doesn't resist whatever damage type your Dominion/Oath has left you stuck with. That's a lot of if's. It's just not a good look.
    The spirit blast is more of a backup than the main focus of the spirit; it's not exactly supposed to be a damage powerhouse, but I suppose it could be improved if it's a consistent sticking point. The spell list for each spirit isn't finalized (since there's supposed to be two per spell level rather than one) which might help the second point.
    You call it a backup, but what is the spirit companion actually doing otherwise if it already has any relevant buffs up? Your casting isn't good enough to blast or CC, and your slots don't have the staying power to provide a significant amount of utility. I've had a couple of possible ideas: increase spirit blast's damage to 1d6 per odd level, make it so your spirit companion can use your spirit powers so it has more action variety, or bump its casting to 6 levels (though that last one might cause more problems than it solves).
    Could you mention any in particular that stand out as weak? Or any that you think are in the right spot, so that others can be compared and adjusted.
    I'd need to really read each spirit in-depth, and I don't have time for that at this particular moment. I'll get back to you.
    I expected this to be brought up and I'm torn. On the one hand, since you're limited to a single Oath for invocations you can generally focus around offense/defense/control for feats, despite being able to change spirits. But on the other, you can still go very different routes within a single Oath (like natural attacks for Savage Beasts and Combat Maneuvers for Crashing Waves). I'm hesitant to just hand out some bonus feats since, to me, the spirit companion essentially acts as "bonus" feats for you since it can dedicate its feats to spellcasting, and I view the class as already getting a lot. But, based on your feedback, maybe I'm overvaluing the class's current capabilities.
    Easiest fix for this would probably be to remove the Dominion/Oath restrictions on invoking, so you can just pick and choose whichever spirits play into your build the best. It cuts into the class's flavor, sure, but I can't imagine any other way to improve your flexibility without seriously overcomplicating the class. Up to you.
    There's always the option of just making it a full-BAB for more hit/HP, but I dunno. That's probably the last thing I'd try.
    It's a quick-and-dirty fix, yeah, but it might be the one this class needs. I'm just not confident that you can stack up against most other combat-oriented classes as-is. I mean, maybe even just compare against the Elementalist or Warden in a one-on-one fight. Which one comes out on top?
    Pretty much the #1 priority when writing the rules out for this class was "It has to be weaker than summoner," since it's largely considered OP. I think your point about it being too far in the other direction might be true, though. My fear of repeating the mistakes of summoner might have made me too cautious, and having over 100 spirit combinations made me seriously wary of creating any OP synergies.
    That's fair, but the summoner has a lot of advantages this class doesn't get, the biggest one being 6-level casting off one of the best lists in the game, plus free scaling SLAs of one of the most versatile spells. Not to mention the eidolon is a highly-customizable combat monster that can give most full martial classes a run for their money, while the invoker themselves is... not. You said you wanted invoker to be weaker than summoner, but right now I think the gap is wide enough that you could afford to close it a little. I'm trying not to suggest specific fixes, because you know what you want this class to be better than I do. But I do think some kind of fix is needed to proceed.

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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Time for another update! Today we take a look at some of the new magic items in Path of the Wilds, focusing in particular on weapons and armor. Check it out on the Ascension Games website.
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    As requested, there's now a public Google Drive document for the playtest. Feel free to leave comments there!
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Today we preview some of the new spells in Path of the Wilds! Check them out on the Ascension Games website.
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Keeping the conversation going on Elementalist/Invoker suggestions:

    Spoiler: Elementalist
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    Not being able to cast spells except for twists while your aegis is active is a pretty big balancing point already. As it is, I can really only see two times in an adventuring day when you'd use your aegis: at the start of the day to conserve spells, and as a pseudo-nova at the end of the day when you're running low on your big hitters. More flexibility than that wouldn't go unappreciated.
    That's fair. I figured I'd try out the all-or-nothing but most feedback seems to be against it. I'll probably remove the exit penalty.
    I'm not sure that logic tracks for me. Obviously you'd rather actually cast the spells than just burn them on your aegis form: combat buffs are never going to match the versatility or utility of spells. If players aren't meant to go to the Conversion option except as a last-ditch solution, why include it at all?
    To have a last-ditch solution.
    If you moved the progression to starting at 2nd level and every 2 levels thereafter, you'd gain three empty levels (3rd, 9th, and 15th). This class isn't exactly bloated with class features; I don't think one or two ribbons to fill in the empty space would kill anyone.
    I was thinking of doing 2nd and every three, but also granting you two at the first selection (for a total of 8, instead of 6). It would give more twists early game where it's sorely needed and wouldn't require too much rewrite since you could shift around existing features to fill the gaps. I haven't actually tried shuffling it that way, but I think it ends up with aegis powers shifted a level earlier to 4/10/16 and Potency/Fusions moved a bit later. Shouldn't be an issue, though.

    Spoiler: Invoker
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    Your companion has pretty cruddy stats to actually use those skills, usually can't have as high a bonus as a comparative PC due to its HD caps, and might struggle in a face role in certain campaigns on account of being a fey. While the balance point of this class is obviously the summoner, I found myself comparing it more than once to the ranger, another martial/pet hybrid class, but one with full BAB and 6+Int skill points.
    Eh, I think it's fine. 4+INT is the "average" for Pathfinder. It's not meant to be skill focused at all, so if anything this is an area I'm okay with the class being subpar at (unlike combat, which as we've been discussing needs some work).
    Avatar form has an action cost, only lasts a minute so you can't even have it up before combat most of the time, and doesn't actually grant very good bonuses, to the point that I think it might actually make you weaker than normal due to the action economy loss.
    I'm hesitant to give Avatar state a way to Quicken spells from the companion to avoid as much action economy sink, but it's an option. If I do it will likely require spirit energy to do so (maybe 1 point per level of the spell). Of course, at that point it conflicts with any swift-action heavy spirits like Predator and Savage. We'll see.
    You call it a backup, but what is the spirit companion actually doing otherwise if it already has any relevant buffs up? Your casting isn't good enough to blast or CC, and your slots don't have the staying power to provide a significant amount of utility. I've had a couple of possible ideas: increase spirit blast's damage to 1d6 per odd level, make it so your spirit companion can use your spirit powers so it has more action variety, or bump its casting to 6 levels (though that last one might cause more problems than it solves).
    I will mention that the spirit does get +1 spell per level from Invoked Magic, which you might be overlooking. Acolyte spirits get to do so twice per level, so they have even more. Still not gonna keep up with a true caster but it has a bit more than just what's on the table.

    The most likely of these changes is to increase the blast damage. I don't think it'd hit 10d6 but maybe in the middle at 8d6. I'm also considering removing the limitation on sharing magic item slots with the invoker. It may have been necessary for Summoner due to the eidolon's evolutions giving enough bonuses but in this case the spirit doesn't have good enough stats to survive very long without some defensive items. It'd also let you bump up its spellcasting capability since you can now both get headbands for each other's respective DCs, whereas before most players would take the Charisma band for the invoker and ignore the spirit.

    I'd need to really read each spirit in-depth, and I don't have time for that at this particular moment. I'll get back to you.
    Looking forward to it.
    Easiest fix for this would probably be to remove the Dominion/Oath restrictions on invoking, so you can just pick and choose whichever spirits play into your build the best. It cuts into the class's flavor, sure, but I can't imagine any other way to improve your flexibility without seriously overcomplicating the class. Up to you.
    ...
    It's a quick-and-dirty fix, yeah, but it might be the one this class needs. I'm just not confident that you can stack up against most other combat-oriented classes as-is. I mean, maybe even just compare against the Elementalist or Warden in a one-on-one fight. Which one comes out on top?
    ...
    That's fair, but the summoner has a lot of advantages this class doesn't get, the biggest one being 6-level casting off one of the best lists in the game, plus free scaling SLAs of one of the most versatile spells. Not to mention the eidolon is a highly-customizable combat monster that can give most full martial classes a run for their money, while the invoker themselves is... not. You said you wanted invoker to be weaker than summoner, but right now I think the gap is wide enough that you could afford to close it a little. I'm trying not to suggest specific fixes, because you know what you want this class to be better than I do. But I do think some kind of fix is needed to proceed.
    In the in-house tests the Invoker plus his companion were doing decent enough damage (he was using the Earth Trembles spirit mainly, and Crush -> Aftershock was satisfying to use), but just from raw stats if it was thrown up against the Warden he definitely would have had trouble landing a hit due to the Warden's high AC. Against the elementalist he and his companion had stronger output from normal attacks, but the elementalist's spells out-ranged them both pretty easily, and in aegis form the elementalist pulled ahead again. There's the argument that having two bodies on the field provides utility (like the use of wondrous items/potions/etc.) but that's harder to measure than just DPR.

    Part of the idea was that rather than having raw stats, the invoker could debuff its way to better hits. Earth makes enemies prone or flat-footed, Brambles could entangle, use acolyte spirits like Predator to turn invisible. Stuff like that. But compared to more reliable self-bonuses like inquisitor's judgement (or even going into my earlier books, stuff like saboteur's marked target) it's looking like it's not sufficient.

    Right now I'm leaning more and more towards making the invoker full BAB/d10 hit die. I'm of the opinion that any decently designed full-BAB class should have some bonus feats, so if I go that route I will likely give it a few. Probably three at most, likely levels 3/9/15.

    Last edited by Seginus; 2019-10-29 at 11:17 AM.
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    I'm going to test all 3 classes this Sunday, send the trio against my five level 16 PCs, thinking either level 15 or 16 for the NPCs, depending on how hard I want it to be. Anything in particular you want me to test?

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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldaran View Post
    I'm going to test all 3 classes this Sunday, send the trio against my five level 16 PCs, thinking either level 15 or 16 for the NPCs, depending on how hard I want it to be. Anything in particular you want me to test?
    Sounds great!

    Elementalist I think could just use a general testing. I'd definitely have a 2x fusion for one element so the NPC has some higher-level spells. Outside of that, just general feel of the class (namely, the switching between caster mode and aegis/combat mode) should be observed. It'll be good to see how players react and adapt to it.

    Invoker has the most room for testing. As I mentioned above I'm already considering changing it to a d10/full BAB class; whether you want to test the higher BAB or the original version is on you. For the invoker's spirits, the ones that most likely need testing are:

    • Alpha Protects a Weary Pack. The low-hp effects are risky and might not be worth taking as-is, though the ability to intercept attacks should prove useful for an NPC team.
    • Crashing Waves Break the Shore. It's a combat maneuver build. Enough said.
    • Clouds Blanket Sky and Ground. The effects are more subtle than other guardian spirits, so it may not be enough. A current suggestion in the playtest doc has been to remove the Reflex save from Storm Cloud; maybe try that out and see if it still feels fair.
    • Vile Spores Poison the Unwary. It's built around what amounts to a CC-focused Acid Arrow. Is it worth it?

    Obviously not all of those spirits can be tested at once, but I'd have the invoker use at least one of them, along with something that synergizes with it (like Vile Spores combined with Trees Flourish). I'd probably avoid using avatar initially, if only to see how the group deals with the backline spirit companion providing spell support.

    Warden overall I'm not too worried about. Suggestions have been asking for making Remedy into a swift-action-on-self like a paladin's lay on hands; consider adding that to the warden and see if feels fair. At 15th level the warden will have access to grand wards, so definitely try out some of those. Of all of the wards, the only one that I'm worried might be too strong is eye of the storm due to its control winds effect. Other than that one, maybe use a ward that counters some part of their strategy, like tranquil aurora if they use a lot of morale effects or moon's glow if you have a wild shape/polymorph user.
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    How set in stone is your choice to use 'Elementalist' as the class name? Would you for example be willing to change the name to 'Geomancer'? I ask because almost all of the games I participate in also utilize Spheres of Power, which have an Elementalist class, and would prefer to remove or atleast minimalize confusion.

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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehangel View Post
    How set in stone is your choice to use 'Elementalist' as the class name? Would you for example be willing to change the name to 'Geomancer'? I ask because almost all of the games I participate in also utilize Spheres of Power, which have an Elementalist class, and would prefer to remove or atleast minimalize confusion.
    count me in on the geomancer part as well
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehangel View Post
    How set in stone is your choice to use 'Elementalist' as the class name? Would you for example be willing to change the name to 'Geomancer'? I ask because almost all of the games I participate in also utilize Spheres of Power, which have an Elementalist class, and would prefer to remove or atleast minimalize confusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    count me in on the geomancer part as well
    I'll look into a different name, but "Geomancer" doesn't work since that invokes only earth-based magic rather than all four elements. I could try shortening it to "Elementer", which while close is at least not identical. I'll have to think on some names.

    Were it not for the book already having an invoker I would consider evoker given the class's heavy evocation focus.
    Last edited by Seginus; 2019-10-30 at 11:14 AM.
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    well this looks kinda bad 16 days remaining and we barely hit the 1/4 mark looks like some one need way better market pitch or this project can not become realç
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Today we continue our spell previews with some new utility spells! Check them out on the Ascension Games website.
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Our third spell preview showcases some new plant-based spells! You can find them on the Ascension Games website.
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Pretty neat stuff. I'll see where and how I can try to shove this into a future one shot I'm running to get some playtesting in. The elementalist looks particularly fun and scratches my itch for some nice complexity.

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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Let's take a look at the last chapter of Path of the Wilds: archetypes and class options! Give it a read on the Ascension Games website.
    Last edited by Seginus; 2019-11-07 at 01:10 PM.
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    Default Re: [Ascension Games] Announcing Path of the Wilds! Kickstarter and Playtest Thread

    Time for our final content preview for Path of the Wilds! Today we look at the new Animist Barbarian, a totem-summoning warrior that supports allies. Check it out on the Ascension Games website.
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    Exclamation Kickstater Ending Soon! We need your help now more than ever!

    The Kickstarter for Path of the Wilds is ending soon! CLICK HERE to support the project! Call up those high-level clerics, because we're in need of a miracle!

    The project still has a long way to go, and we need your help now more than ever. With your generosity and the aid of your tabletop group, we can make this project come to life.

    You might be thinking, "Well, with how much is left before reaching the goal, should I even back the project?" To which I say, Kickstarter projects only charge you if the goal is met. If you are interested in Path of the Wilds, even if you think the project might not make its funding goal, please consider backing! If everyone that was hesitant to back the project for fear of the goal not being met actually did back the project, we'd hit our funding goal in no time at all. Every bit helps!

    There's a playtest document you can read on Google Docs, or you can download directly from DriveThruRPG, Paizo.com, or the Ascension Games store if you'd like to look at the content before backing.

    If you missed any of our updates, you can check them out on the Ascension Games website:


    Thank you for your continued support!

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