OOTS #1182 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

Could be, but I'm thinking it's a generic reference. "If you could plug generic character with no defining personality traits in my place"

No, I absolutely think he means O-Chul by "the bald guy with the scar."

Also, upon rereading, I don't think Roy knows Belkar freed the allosaurus; he just knows Belkar did some ranger-y things to get it under his control when Tarquin's army was upon them. I'm not sure if that was a point of contention, but since it was being discussed earlier, I've offered my opinion on it.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Why are people still going on about Belkar's death. It was either a false propecy by a charlatan, or it already happened 572 strips ago. Belkar Evolved, so he does not die.


The only options are:

A) Oracle is a charlatan, made obvious by his false prophecy of Belkar causing one of the deaths Belkar stipulated, which the Oracle tried to use loopholes to claim was a valid prophecy.

B) The Oracle set precedence that loopholes count, ergo Belkar's Death was meant to happen but the Cleric of Loki introduced the loophole of evolving, meaning old Belkar did die, new Belkar was born.

C) Belkar is immune to dying until he personally causes the Death of one of the stipulated beings, most of which he won't kill or can't kill now.

Take your pick, those are the options, but Belkar won't be dying until the series is over.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Nah, all of the actual prophecies made by the Oracle do come true, but they're always weasel-worded, cryptic and ambiguous enough that they come true in a way that wouldn't be the immediately obvious one at the time.

Hence it seems to me that "Belkar will take his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year" allows for a lot more possibilities than just straight-up, simple, standard death.

And I think this may have something to do with it. Belkar clearly wants to prove to Roy that he has changed for the better, but Roy's too stubborn to see it. It's going to take some sort of awe-inspiring self-sacrifice to unambiguously get the point through.

[Doctor West]

But... Belkar already *did* cause the death of one of the stipulated beings, without loopholes. He killed the Oracle, remember? And that was before the Oracle made the prophecy about his death official, too.

[Xihirli]

A) Oracle is a charlatan, made obvious by his false prophecy of Belkar causing one of the deaths Belkar stipulated, which the Oracle tried to use loopholes to claim was a valid prophecy.

All of the Oracle's prophecies so far have come true.

B) The Oracle set precedence that loopholes count, ergo Belkar's Death was meant to happen but the Cleric of Loki introduced the loophole if evolving, meaning old Belkar did die, new Belkar was born.

The Oracle was trying to pass those off because he had foreseen Belkar killing him, one of the options given in the selection. His own death fulfilled the prophecy.

C) Belkar is immune to dying until he personally causes the Death of one of the stipulated beings, most of which he won't kill or can't kill now.

Belkar already killed the Oracle.

[Peelee]

Why are people still going on about Belkar's death. It was either a false propecy by a charlatan, or it already happened 572 strips ago. Belkar Evolved, so he does not die.


The only options are:

A) Oracle is a charlatan, made obvious by his false prophecy of Belkar causing one of the deaths Belkar stipulated, which the Oracle tried to use loopholes to claim was a valid prophecy.

B) The Oracle set precedence that loopholes count, ergo Belkar's Death was meant to happen but the Cleric of Loki introduced the loophole if evolving, meaning old Belkar did die, new Belkar was born.

C) Belkar is immune to dying until he personally causes the Death of one of the stipulated beings, most of which he won't kill or can't kill now.

Take your pick, those are the options, but Belkar won't be dying until the series is over.

One of the people Belkar asked if he would kill was the Oracle
Belkar killed the Oracle. The Oracle jerked Belkar around when he asked for a refund, which caused Belkar to kill the Oracle, which fulfilled the prophecy. Perfectly straightforward, no loopholes.

Belkar gon' die.

Nah, all of the actual prophecies made by the Oracle do come true, but they're always weasel-worded, cryptic and ambiguous enough that they come true in a way that wouldn't be the immediately obvious one at the time.

Hence it seems to me that "Belkar will take his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year" allows for a lot more possibilities than just straight-up, simple, standard death.

And I think this may have something to do with it. Belkar clearly wants to prove to Roy that he has changed for the better, but Roy's too stubborn to see it. It's going to take some sort of awe-inspiring self-sacrifice to unambiguously get the point through.

The Oracle has three other comments on Belkar dying. Last breath isn't the only condition.

Also, his answers to Belkar's and Roy's prophecies were perfectly straightforward.

[137beth]

How drunk does Roy have to be to tell Belkar he expects him to die due to a prophecy? (With less ambiguity then when Roy sort of said so in strip 880.)

No, I absolutely think he means O-Chul by "the bald guy with the scar."

Also, upon rereading, I don't think Roy knows Belkar freed the allosaurus; he just knows Belkar did some ranger-y things to get it under his control when Tarquin's army was upon them. I'm not sure if that was a point of contention, but since it was being discussed earlier, I've offered my opinion on it.

Yea, also think he meant O-Chul.

[Shoelessgdowar]

But... Belkar already *did* cause the death of one of the stipulated beings, without loopholes. He killed the Oracle, remember? And that was before the Oracle made the prophecy about his death official, too.

No, the Oracle is alive, Belkar did not cause THE DEATH of the Oracle, Belkar didn't even cause a death of the Oracle, the Oracle set up an elaborate scheme to get vengeance for Yik-Yik, Yok-Yok, and other Kobolds by triggering the mark to kill Belkar. The Mark was meant to kill Belkar, which it did, the new Belkar is not the same Belkar who was prophecised to die.

All of the Oracle's prophecies so far have come true.

The Oracle was trying to pass those off because he had foreseen Belkar killing him, one of the options given in the selection. His own death fulfilled the prophecy.

Belkar already killed the Oracle.

Actually, none of the Oracle's prophecies have come true.

Xykon was in the Gate Room, not a throne room.
Durkon returned to his homelands undead, not Post Humously
Haley got her voice back due to a Trojan Horse, not a gift Horse.
Ginko Bilboa did nothing for Blackwing
V has never gained ultimate power, and the alleged incidence was 3 words (not 4), at the worst time (not the right time), to no one, for a myriad of reasons both right and wrong (but only some wrong, not all the wrong, and some very right).
Belkar has not caused any of those Deaths, which the Oracle's actions admitted (The Oracle's death was caused by the Oracle, Belkar was just holding the dagger).
Belkar evolved instead of dying, as per the Priest of Loki's loophole to the curse.
Elan has not had a happy ending.

The Oracle's rules change from prophecy to propecy, which means his Prophecies don't matter or there is always wiggle room to alter them. Either the answer for Belkar had to been "No" as it was worded, or the answer for Roy had to be "The Azure Gate", because either he is bound by the letter of the question or the intent. By the letter of Belkar's question, "the Death" is singular and final as opposed to "a death" which is one of many (a bigger issue in a world where spells can and do restore life, but also an issue where medical people can resuscitate the dead). Or by the intent of Roy's request, despite his specific wording, the next gate was still the Azure Gate, which the Oracle would have to stipulate if intent is what actually matters.

I also will point out, the Oracle predicted Ghost Roy would forget. Again, the Oracle is always wrong.

[Peelee]

No, the Oracle is alive, Belkar did not cause THE DEATH of the Oracle, Belkar didn't even cause a death of the Oracle, the Oracle set up an elaborate scheme to get vengeance for Yik-Yik, Yok-Yok, and other Kobolds by triggering the mark to kill Belkar. The Mark was meant to kill Belkar, which it did, the new Belkar is not the same Belkar who was prophecised to die.

That's right up there with "V only said three different words so his prophecy still hasn't come true."

[F.Harr]

I think Bekar could really DO Team Philosopher. He really does think about stiff in a creativeand structured way. It's a chaotic evil way, but who said philosophy couldn't be?

[nolongeralurker]

How drunk does Roy have to be to tell Belkar he expects him to die due to a prophecy? (With less ambiguity then when Roy sort of said so in strip 880.)

Huh, that *is* more ambiguous than I remembered. I guess I'll change my theory slightly, to 'Belkar didn't understand what Roy said at the pyramid because there was so much emotionally-charged conversation and events of the day surrounding what he said that Belkar didn't get a good chance to focus on what was said when it was said, to think about it further that day, or to remember it much at all'.

[Particle_Man]

Hence it seems to me that "Belkar will take his last breath -- ever -- before the end of the year" allows for a lot more possibilities than just straight-up, simple, standard death.

Would Belkar permanently going way, way, back in time (long enough that he would die of Old Age before OOTS #1) fulfil the prophecy?

[TheNecrocomicon]

The Oracle has three other comments on Belkar dying. Last breath isn't the only condition.

Also, his answers to Belkar's and Roy's prophecies were perfectly straightforward.

Well, that one about "last breath" was the only one on the divinely-backed "record". The Oracle can spout whatever he wants off-the-cuff in mundane fashion, but there's clearly a difference when the words are being formally and explicitly backstopped by the divine power that grants him his prophetic abilities.

Conventional death may indeed be involved. But nothing's ever been that simple with the Oracle, and it seems to me it isn't about to start being straightforward today.

Would Belkar permanently going way, way, back in time (long enough that he would die of Old Age before OOTS #1) fulfil the prophecy?

Probably. In strictly chronological terms, it would be his "last breath ever" right before getting displaced, just not his own final one in terms of his own continuity.

[FlawedParadigm]

I am at least 99.7% sure this means absolutely nothing but in almost every panel in this strip, Mr. Scruffy's tail and hind leg look a lot like "62."

What, if anything, that could mean (if it was even intentional) I dare not fathom to guess. It can't be number of strips remaining by logic of there's more story left to tell than that.

Discuss. Don't discuss. Whichever.

[Emperor Time]

How drunk does Roy have to be to tell Belkar he expects him to die due to a prophecy? (With less ambiguity then when Roy sort of said so in strip 880.)



Yea, also think he meant O-Chul.

Agree that it has to be O-Chul since any other character with any importance does not fit that description.

[Ouze]

Roughly when, numerically, was the defensive items thing that Roy was referring to - when Belkar was fighting the Hobgoblins solo outside the city walls, or something else? If the latter, d'd like to re-read it but there's a lot to flip through :)

[Wackd]

Didn't the Giant already say that there's no clever way out of Belkar legit biting it and not coming back, or did I imagine that?

[bunsen_h]

Roughly when, numerically, was the defensive items thing that Roy was referring to - when Belkar was fighting the Hobgoblins solo outside the city walls, or something else? If the latter, d'd like to re-read it but there's a lot to flip through :)

If Belkar hadn't had that Protection from Evil thing to shock him back into consciousness after the big fight with the vampires had left everyone in the party out of action, they would have lost.

[redzimmer]

I think it will all be revealed in Strip #100.

[Ganonphile]

Roughly when, numerically, was the defensive items thing that Roy was referring to - when Belkar was fighting the Hobgoblins solo outside the city walls, or something else? If the latter, d'd like to re-read it but there's a lot to flip through :)

My guess (considering he was referencing the vampire) was the Protection from Evil item. Can't remember the comic when he got it (During Haley's arc with the flesh golem, I think).

And this entire comic makes me remember the paladin who refused to buy items to boost his animal companion's and his own combat abilities, and then who complained about being useless in combat.

Good memories. /sarcasm

[Aeson]

Roughly when, numerically, was the defensive items thing that Roy was referring to - when Belkar was fighting the Hobgoblins solo outside the city walls, or something else? If the latter, d'd like to re-read it but there's a lot to flip through :)

It's the clasp of Protection from Evil Belkar acquired in Tinkertown, which woke Belkar up during the fight against vampire-Durkon and company, allowing him to kill off most of the surviving vampires after everyone in the party was down, dominated, or both.

[SpectralTime]

I like how the guy bringing them beer is just confused, because alcohol can't penetrate dwarfen poison resistance and dwarves never get drunk. He has no frame of reference for why they are acting this way.

[Ouze]

Thanks, that makes sense.

[factotum]

That's right up there with "V only said three different words so his prophecy still hasn't come true."

You realise there's very little point in arguing this with Shoelessgdofwar? He will not acknowledge in any way that Belkar is going to die--heck, I'm pretty sure that even when Belkar *does* bite the big one he'll probably be arguing "Oh, that wasn't really Belkar, he's hiding somewhere and sent a clone to die in his place".

[Frozenstep]

What a wait, but man I wasn't expecting another character moment for Belkar. He's been getting them nonstop and it's great. And in a variety of ways too...on his own, with Minrah and then Durkon, and now with Roy (while drunk). It's interesting to see how different characters view him, and how he views himself (I can't help but read a lot of his lines this strip as some sort of self-resentment).

Seeing this though...wow, I forgot it takes a lot to change Roy's mind on someone.

[Fyraltari]

I presume it's O-Chul.

Oh, right. This is why I shouldn’t read webcomic when going to bed. Thanks

No, you have to wait until page 12 of this thread for that.

Execute comment 66.

Nice.

No, the Oracle is alive, Belkar did not cause THE DEATH of the Oracle, Belkar didn't even cause a death of the Oracle, the Oracle set up an elaborate scheme to get vengeance for Yik-Yik, Yok-Yok, and other Kobolds by triggering the mark to kill Belkar. The Mark was meant to kill Belkar, which it did, the new Belkar is not the same Belkar who was prophecised to die.

This is the most ridiculous bit of rationalisation for ‘Belkar is totes gonna live guys’ I have yet seen on these boards. Congratulations. I’m halfway convinced you are just trolling but I’ll bite. You have absolutely no evidence for anything you’ve just said. And it’s so obviously false to claim that ‘Belkar didn’t even cause a death of the Oracle’ that I am amazed anyone would even try. Thank you.

Moving on.

Actually, none of the Oracle's prophecies have come true.

Let’s see about that, shall we?

Xykon was in the Gate Room, not a throne room.

Which happens to be the room he put a throne in. You know, his throne room. And that’s ignoring the possibility that Xykon was in another room at the moment Roy and Durkon visited the Oracle.

Durkon returned to his homelands undead, not Post Humously

Posthumously means after death and Durkon has died. Yes etymologically it means ‘after being put in the earth’ but there have been awards of posthumous medals to people whose body where not retrievable si in use (which is the only meaning that counts) it means ‘after death’.

Haley got her voice back due to a Trojan Horse, not a gift Horse.

You do realize that a Trojan horse is, by definition, a horse that is given to someone? Besides that’s not the point. ‘Looking a gift horse in the mouth’ is an idiom describing the act of looking for flaws and hidden dangers in an unexpected boon and Haley got her voice back when she didn’t do that. No matter that she was right to do it.

Ginko Bilboa did nothing for Blackwing

Prove that. Also there’s no (known) time limit on that.

V has never gained ultimate power

Name one individual with more arcane power than V had at the time. It doesn’t matter that V was not able to hold on to this power, V had it.

and the alleged incidence was 3 words (not 4), at the worst time (not the right time), to no one, for a myriad of reasons both right and wrong (but only some wrong, not all the wrong, and some very right).

What are you even... it doesn’t matter that two words were the same, that’s still four words. V said the right words to Vself because these were the words V needed to convince Vself to take the deal and the only reason V took that deal was pride since the Archfiends presented V with what V thought was a viable plan with the downside that V would have to swallow V’s pride.

Belkar has not caused any of those Deaths, which the Oracle's actions admitted (The Oracle's death was caused by the Oracle, Belkar was just holding the dagger).

Dude, never become a criminal attorney. ‘Honorable members of the jury, my client did not kill the victim as, although my client did plunge a knife inside the victim’s heart with every intent to kill, the victim was being mean’. No wait, I take it back, do become a criminal attorney I want to see that in real life.

Belkar evolved instead of dying, as per the Priest of Loki's loophole to the curse.

And what makes you think his prophecy referred to this point and this point only? Belkar has been near death many times since.

Elan has not had a happy ending.

Could that be because... drum rolls... the story isn’t over yet? Elan did not get a sad ending either.

Other prophecies you forgot to (or couldn’t) find weasel words out of: The Oracle did give Roy enough precise info to find Xykon, he did give Eugene the name of his master’s murderer and he did tell Mama Dragon where to find V. He also knew she was coming.
He also knew Roy and Elan would meet their respective siblings soon. And that Eugene would end up haunting his progeny.

The Oracle's rules change from prophecy to propecy

No they don’t.

which means his Prophecies don't matter or there is always wiggle room to alter them.

Come back when you’ve found wiggle room to ‘Last breath ever before the end of the year’ and ‘not of this world’.
[quote]Either the answer for Belkar had to been "No" as it was worded, or the answer for Roy had to be "The Azure Gate", because either he is bound by the letter of the question or the intent.[quote]
He answered both to the letter.
By the letter of Belkar's question, "the [quote]Death" is singular and final as opposed to "a death" which is one of many (a bigger issue in a world where spells can and do restore life[quote]
No matter your opinion on the subject, characters in-comic have never made that division. To the point of listing all dates of death on tombstones.
[quote]but also an issue where medical people can resuscitate the dead.[quote] They can’t by the way. Nobody considers cardiac arrest without cerebral death death anymore.

I also will point out, the Oracle predicted Ghost Roy would forget. Again, the Oracle is always wrong.

I will give you that one. However as the Oracle didn’t put on ‘the light show’ it’s simple to conclude he wasn’t using his powers at that moment.

[Jannoire]

All of the Oracle's prophecies so far have come true.

I'm almost on boat with that, except for Elan's prophecy. There was no happy ending yet.

[gatemansgc]

I presume it's O-Chul.

of course! i don't know why i didn't get that right away but then again it is almost 4 in the morning.

[Lkctgo]

This talk between them seems a little inorganic, notwithstanding that Roy knows V sold her soul to literal embodiment of evil (and therefore just mucked up their plans), Belkar has been working towards being a team player. I understand that the belittling of Belkar is supposed to show their "innermost" thoughts, but that's hella ungrateful for someone who's literally following you without compensation to vanquish a personal foe, and also just saved the world from the vampire scourge.

[Cerlis]

No, I absolutely think he means O-Chul by "the bald guy with the scar."

Also, upon rereading, I don't think Roy knows Belkar freed the allosaurus; he just knows Belkar did some ranger-y things to get it under his control when Tarquin's army was upon them. I'm not sure if that was a point of contention, but since it was being discussed earlier, I've offered my opinion on it.

to be frank, yes exactly without a doubt. i'm a little annoyed this wasnt settled pages ago.

the allosaurus mount was a key factor in

Defeating another allosaurus
breaking through the army
Avoiding Tarquin's mooks
expending most of the psion's power points (that gate ability is 5th-7th lvl minimum and with psionics you can spend ALL your power points on high lvl abilities)
and even soaking a high lvl spell. can you imagine if one of the order was the target of a baleful polymorph?

and on top of all that the most significant thing is Belkar doing something useful with one of his class abilities

with one wild empathy check he 'defeated' 2 high hit point monsters, relocated the order, helped foil the strongest person on the field and countered a game changing spell.

-----------------

in regards to Belkar's imminent death, its not a big issue for me. Way i figure it he will probably spend eternity a sexy shoeless god of war in the 9 hells murdering fiends in various creative ways while occasionally being visited on his days off by vaarsuvius and via scrolls of plane shifts. or something.

the writer has made it a point that resurrection is a huge plot killer, and that while he's a better person than he WAS that he's still an evil little monster and there are 9 layers of hell of monsters that are stabbable without anyone good getting mad about it.

and only other person i see who'd thematically fit a tragic death via snarl would be vaarsuvius. but i think they will be a part of the "order of the stick does what the order of the scribble did but better cus they arent jackholes about it" epilogue or w/e

This talk between them seems a little inorganic, notwithstanding that Roy knows V sold her soul to literal embodiment of evil (and therefore just mucked up their plans), Belkar has been working towards being a team player. I understand that the belittling of Belkar is supposed to show their "innermost" thoughts, but that's hella ungrateful for someone who's literally following you without compensation to vanquish a personal foe, and also just saved the world from the vampire scourge.

but consider....literally everything else Belkar has done.

thats what roy is talking about.