New Unearthed Arcana: Fighter, Ranger, Rogue (October 17th)

[ATHATH]

He's still just a Fighter though. Not like he has a Wish rune, or Simulacrum cheese. He gets big, he hits things, and he has a few utility abilities to help out his party.

You're complaining about Apache Chief getting to punch things when Darkseid is over here disintegrating entire planets and trapping people for eternity.

The problem here is that Rune Knights are getting this stuff at level 3, while Darkseid is getting planet disintegration at level 11-ish.

In other words, the problem is not that Fighters are getting these strong things at all, but rather that they're getting them way too early for how strong they are. I'd recommend adding scaling for each rune based on the Rune Knight's level, so that each rune can still be viable at higher levels (which introducing just level locking but no scaling probably wouldn't let happen) but won't be brokenly good at lower levels.

[Kane0]

Make sure to leave your thoughts on the youtube videos and the playtest surveys!

[Mongobear]

The problem here is that Rune Knights are getting this stuff at level 3, while Darkseid is getting planet disintegration at level 11-ish.

In other words, the problem is not that Fighters are getting these strong things at all, but rather that they're getting them way too early for how strong they are. I'd recommend adding scaling for each rune based on the Rune Knight's level, so that each rune can still be viable at higher levels (which introducing just level locking but no scaling probably wouldn't let happen) but won't be brokenly good at lower levels.

I just don't think it's that strong to warrant the complaints.

Yes, they get cool things. Once. They need to rest to get it again (twice at high level).

They get a "Rage 2.0" + Size increase, but not nearly as resilient as a Barbarian.

They're trading longevity for utility, and again--theyre still just Fighters. They still just do damage. Thats it. This RJ makes them better at that. If anything, I'd say being able to have some utility outside of dealing damage is more troublesome than the damage buffs, but not to an "OP" level.

They're basically Arcane Archers, and nobody calls them OP.

[Kane0]

I just don't think it's that strong to warrant the complaints.

Yes, they get cool things. Once. They need to rest to get it again (twice at high level).

They get a "Rage 2.0" + Size increase, but not nearly as resilient as a Barbarian.

They're trading longevity for utility, and again--theyre still just Fighters. They still just do damage. Thats it. This RJ makes them better at that. If anything, I'd say being able to have some utility outside of dealing damage is more troublesome than the damage buffs, but not to an "OP" level.

They're basically Arcane Archers, and nobody calls them OP.

Better arcane archers, both of which are fighter subclasses. Stepping on other classes aside, subclasses of the same class should at least be equivalent lest we end up with more beserkers and battleragers standing next to totems and zealots.

[AdAstra]

I just don't think it's that strong to warrant the complaints.

Yes, they get cool things. Once. They need to rest to get it again (twice at high level).

They get a "Rage 2.0" + Size increase, but not nearly as resilient as a Barbarian.

They're trading longevity for utility, and again--theyre still just Fighters. They still just do damage. Thats it. This RJ makes them better at that. If anything, I'd say being able to have some utility outside of dealing damage is more troublesome than the damage buffs, but not to an "OP" level.

They're basically Arcane Archers, and nobody calls them OP.

If you think that Rune Knight is in any way comparable to Arcane Archer in any way other than recharging abilities on a short rest, there’s not going to be much discussion. The better rune powers are more powerful than the best special arrows by an order of magnitude, and you get more at 7, 10, and 15. Then you’ve got Giant Might, then the at-will reaction AC boost. The closest thing the AA gets to competing is the bonus action arrow redirect.

[Rukelnikov]

Better arcane archers, both of which are fighter subclasses. Stepping on other classes aside, subclasses of the same class should at least be equivalent lest we end up with more beserkers and battleragers standing next to totems and zealots.

But as long as you have Totems and Zealots, the rest of the subclasses should be made with those in mind, if you balance them around Battleragers, then the subclass landscape will remain the same with those 2 dominating and having few of the other options.

[Kane0]

But as long as you have Totems and Zealots, the rest of the subclasses should be made with those in mind, if you balance them around Battleragers, then the subclass landscape will remain the same with those 2 dominating and having few of the other options.

In an ideal situation they would have been equal in the first place, but if the zealot level is supposed to be the new baseline (say because you were off in the beginning rather than just power creeping) then you should correct those that came before it to match that baseline as well as those that come afterwards. Something that just hasn't been done with 5e and I still maintain should be (and can be so, so easily).
Precedent is a poor excuse for bad design.

[Rukelnikov]

In an ideal situation they would have been equal in the first place, but if the zealot level is supposed to be the new baseline (say because you were off in the beginning rather than just power creeping) then you should correct those that came before it to match that baseline as well as those that come afterwards. Something that just hasn't been done with 5e and I still maintain should be (and can be so, so easily).
Precedent is a poor excuse for bad design.

My point is, it would be bad design to make new subclasses in line with the other subclasses and not the most popular ones, because if you do, you are condemning them from the start.

I agree that old material could (and should) be tuned, but I think the Ranger is the clrearest example that don't want to do that.

[Mongobear]

In an ideal situation they would have been equal in the first place, but if the zealot level is supposed to be the new baseline (say because you were off in the beginning rather than just power creeping) then you should correct those that came before it to match that baseline as well as those that come afterwards. Something that just hasn't been done with 5e and I still maintain should be (and can be so, so easily).
Precedent is a poor excuse for bad design.

The only way that will happen is via a "5.5e" edition.

Look at Revised Ranger, it's been out for like... 3? years and still not an official publication.

We won't see a rebalancing of subclasses without a mini rework like a half-edition totally rebalancing the entire game.

EDIT - This also isn't a new problem. Power creep has existed since 3rd edition, where early classes could barely hold a candle to later publications when every book had something new.

Why play a Fighter or Monk when the Time od Battle classes existed?

Why play Hexblade when Duskblade existed?

[Kane0]

True. In light of the pattern they've been following may as well just make it match the newest baseline and call it a day, leave it to the 'brewers to fix up anything left behind.

Though funnily enough, personally I reckon AA is one of those that need a little buff.

[Mongobear]

True. In light of the pattern they've been following may as well just make it match the newest baseline and call it a day, leave it to the 'brewers to fix up anything left behind.

Though funnily enough, personally I reckon AA is one of those that need a little buff.

Almost all of the Original subclasses need a bit of a boost, with a few exceptions. (Totem Barb, Lore Bard).

And almost everything I SCAG is weaker than PHB options. XGtE totally outclasses nearly everything.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Almost all of the Original subclasses need a bit of a boost, with a few exceptions. (Totem Barb, Lore Bard).

And almost everything I SCAG is weaker than PHB options. XGtE totally outclasses nearly everything.

Eldritch Knight and Battlemaster Fighter, Life and Light Cleric, Paladin (all of them), Moon Druid, Open Hand Monk, Arcane Trickster Rogue, Divination and Abjuration Wizard

That's just my small list of PHB subclasses that don't need any buffs and are still competitive or stronger than some of their newer released counterparts. I would even make the argument for that some classes specifically Paladin, Druid, Rogue and (arguably) Monk that they got weaker options in XGtE (as much as I love Redemption, Conquest and Inquisitive).

There are standouts for newer releases that compare too strongly to a lot of the prior options (Zealot, Hexblade, Gloom Stalker) but there are also many standouts from PHB that compare much more favorably to new releases. It's the massive outliers (Gloom Stalker and Hexblade becoming almost universally regarded as "best" options, more to due with problems in their base class than subclass options, and Arcane Archer on the opposite end being a terrible option) that scream problematic.

I feel the need to point out, if it wasn't obvious before, that this is of course my opinion. I see many of the PHB options, still, as strong (in some cases, the strongest) choices for a character subclass. If I had to name a few that did need changes, about all I can think of is Berserker (too punishing to use some of your core features) Beast Master (again, more a problem with Ranger and not necessarily the subclass) and Wild Magic (too DM dependant, strong with a supporting DM)

[Rukelnikov]

Almost all of the Original subclasses need a bit of a boost, with a few exceptions. (Totem Barb, Lore Bard).

And almost everything I SCAG is weaker than PHB options. XGtE totally outclasses nearly everything.

I disagree with this. XGE has many very powerful subclasses, but it also has Kensei, Sun Soul, and Drunken Master for Monk, which I often see relegated in favor of Open Hand or Shadow, for Figher it has AA, Cavalier, and Samurai, and while you may see some Samurai build or dips here and there they pale to the ammount of BM of EKs you see. PHB has some of the strongest subclasses in the game (Illusionist), and the Xanathar's feats are largely deemed second rate save for a selected few.

So, no I don't think its power is not in line with PHB. Has it gome some really strong subclases? Sure, PHB has those as well.

[stoutstien]

Almost all of the Original subclasses need a bit of a boost, with a few exceptions. (Totem Barb, Lore Bard).

And almost everything I SCAG is weaker than PHB options. XGtE totally outclasses nearly everything.

The Scag cantrips where pretty much flat out power creep.

Id say there are 4 Subclasses that can challenge the PHB subclasses.
Hexblade- just no. Good idea with a horrible execution.

Rangers- why did they not add a side bar for phb concave spells? Or just ettra it already. The hunter concave can match the new ones.

Totem druids- welp this one is just crazy I the hands of a good player. Better than moon? Probably, but moon still more popular.

Sorcerer- both of the new option are pretty much upgrades but not by much. If your DM allows lots of wild magic surges then they are about equal.

The rest of them? Not really. Probably the best flat out expanded player options without blanket power creep.

[Protolisk]

If you think that Rune Knight is in any way comparable to Arcane Archer in any way other than recharging abilities on a short rest, there’s not going to be much discussion. The better rune powers are more powerful than the best special arrows by an order of magnitude, and you get more at 7, 10, and 15. Then you’ve got Giant Might, then the at-will reaction AC boost. The closest thing the AA gets to competing is the bonus action arrow redirect.

On the other hand, the Skye rune redirect, the Stein rune charm, and the Ild rune fire chains are almost exactly like Arcane Archer/Battle master maneuvers. They get single charge (of each), and it is a single one off ability. They also don't scale with level (only Giant's Might does). For a level 7 Rune Knight that prefers Ild, Skye, and Stein (along with free Giant's Might and Defensive Runes) versus Arcane Archer, then they both get:

Features that can only be used very rarely per short rest (Ild, Skye and Stein each only once per short rest. Arcane Archer gets 2 shots over 2 turns. Giant's Might is 2 per long rest, no recharge on short at all)

Some damage increase (Giant's Might allows it's two attacks over one turn to add an additional 2d6. An arcane shot allows an increase of 2d6 for the options that buff damage)

Easy bonus/reaction action economy boost (Defensive runes, Skye AND Stein are all reactions, they have to choose which to use each turn. Arcane Archer gets easy bonus action "extra attack" on misses.)

An easy rider effect for free "on hit" as opposed to chosen as an action (the Ild rune, or any Arcane Shot option)

They also get some proficiency boosts (Arcana or Nature for AA, as well as a free fluff cantrip. RK gets Smith's tools, Giant... and expertise in Smiths/other tools, and advantage on Sleight of Hand, Deception, Insight, and free darkvision. They also have advantage (during Giant's Might) on Strength checks, including Athletics, as well as strength saves. Arcane Archer gets free magic weapons if its any consolation)

With such a set up, they actually... look okay to me, excepting all the passives to skills. Giant's might takes up a bonus action, most other things a reaction. The worst offender is the free advantage on certain skills. But the actual combat mechanics? Not really all that bad. In fact, the only thing they should pull back IS the more "ribbon" like passives.

However, once you add in the other 3 runes, it does get muddy. Those runes' actives are quite powerful. Even then, I don't think they are outright overpowered. Consider this:

Giant's Might takes a bonus action. Ise, Haug, and Uvar all take a bonus action to activate as well. You don't all of a sudden get them for free. It takes time to set up your tanky, future seeing, pain train murder machine. Action Surge also doesn't make this quicker: all needing a bonus action means it actually hampers nova-ing. Should you wait to use Action Surge at the start of the fight, or an extra turn in when you've had the chance to buff your strength and your damage from Ise and Giant' Might. What if you actually need the defense? Haug slows down your ramp even further. Uvar is actually really costly, as it requires your Bonus action to activate, and then your reaction after that. It's both one of the strongest (free disadvantage on an enemy save, or anything else it provides), but it also has the biggest opportunity cost: slowing down both a damage boosting Giant's Might/Ise rune, or slowing down the other defensive boost (Haug), AND needs your reaction. It competes not only with Defensive Runes, but also Skye or Stein runes as well when you get those. They have so many choices, but they all take so long to get set up. Not to mention this hampers their in built Second Wind and simple opportunity attacks, as well as removing the benefit of taking Polearm Master/Great Weapon Master/Sentinel or Crossbow Master for the increases to action economy: they already have so much ramp and options that adding further options is a waste.

Meanwhile, Arcane Archer just shoots as he pleases. Less thinking involved, and near guaranteed damage boosts and free redirect if he misses once.

It is a really complex subclass, and it overall provides more options, its true. But in combat, the benefit of the runes requires costs, opportunity costs. Battlemaster, for instance, needs very little cost for its famous options (like Trip, Menacing/Goading attack, or Precision), almost all its features are "on hit", not taking bonus or reactions. I can see making it's passives weaker, but the active powers I think are just fine where they are.

[Segev]

Rune Knight seems to me to be one of thsoe that might not be as broken as it seems when you get down to play with it. Could be a Barb, with the giant thing, but the runes are much more Fighter with their focus on making gear awesome.

Swarmkeeper is...interesting. I won't say it doesn't work as a Ranger subclass, but it's one that could have gone to several possible places. IT might actually be an interesting notion to have swarm-master subclasses for several classes. (Warlock pact, maybe, and perhaps a Druid subclass, as the most obvious, but I could see a Sorcerer based on a heavy Fate:Zero influence, and even a Wizard aiming at Worm That Walks territory.)

[Kane0]

Level 3 Battlemaster: One tool prof, 4/SR d8s with rider effects
Level 3 Samurai: One skill prof, 3/LR bonus action advantage on attacks and THP
Level 3 Cavalier: One skill prof, mount QoL benefits, mark with attacks within 5'

Level 3 RK: One tool and language prof, Bonus action Enlarge/Reduce (enlarge only, no concentration, 1d6 damage), two runes each with a passive benefit and active 1/SR ability

I think pick either the tool or language for the ribbon and make the enlargement another rune to choose from and it's pretty much in line with the rest.

[Protolisk]

I think pick either the tool or language for the ribbon and make the enlargement another rune to choose from and it's pretty much in line with the rest.

In fact, the "Giant" Rune could outright BE a passive effect of Smithing tools and Giant language, with the pseudo Enlarge being its active. It's... right there.

[Kane0]

In fact, the "Giant" Rune could outright BE a passive effect of Smithing tools and Giant language, with the pseudo Enlarge being its active. It's... right there.

Perfect fit yeah

[micahaphone]

It does seem like a baked in free rune. Maybe they learned from the design of the 4 elements monk, where at level 3 you have to take the "generic elemental cantrip" option as one of your 2 options.

For my current game, I declared that the player got that for free, and could choose another option for a power. Players dislike having mandatory choices when presented with a list of options.

[Foxhound438]

Ah, another UA, another storm of sorts...

I'll be honest, the rune fighter looks a tad OP on the grounds of having just more gas, as most of the OP stuff does, being multiple short rest activations, permanent and relevant passives like darkvision, and of course since that's not enough to make it head and shoulders above AA why not just cram in that concentrationless hex they've been pushing for forever now. Honestly, why not just let hunter's mark be a ranger thing rather than trying to functionally outclass it? I dunno, maybe I'd be okay with the fighter getting to be strictly better than how ranger is now if they could find it within themselves to give ranger some unique spells that feel usable and interesting, or even give it existing spells that give it a niche within a field dominated by paladins and fighters that do the damage bit better... But whatever, maybe this one's somehow okay despite having more gas than existing fighter options and I'm the one that's crazy for thinking that more maneuvers with better effects is too much.

I can finally play shino aburame?!?!

my thought exactly. This one doesn't seem too bad in either direction, a 1/turn damage boost is pretty standard fare ranger stuff at this point for level 3, and a flavory cantrip is a nice add in. Wis mod uses per long rest might get rough for standard adventuring day games, but once you get level 7 for free flight it's probably worth it. Really big fan of scuttling eyes as a scouting effect, but teleporting with it is maybe a bridge too far? Like, otherwise it's already pretty much a side grade arcane eye. Storm of minions blinding every turn might be a bit on the strong side as well, but this is a world where a monk can outright stun things on the same save. Overall I give this one a pass, though I would tone down the higher level features just a tiny bit.

The rogue has the opposite of what I feel a lot of UA content's problems are, this one is good execution (badumtss) on a bad idea. I hate the concept of this because I fear it's prone to encourage and sanction certain less than great behavior in newer players, namely the old fashioned "my character died because I did something stupid, but I have a workaround" that some people try to pull off- normally, it's something like "good thing I had a twin brother that I never mentioned that just now shows up" or something like that, but here it's like it allows you to say the exact same guy shows up like "sup gang, anyone got some updog I can borrow?" and completely defeat the purpose of your actions having consequences... Anyways, great mechanics, possibly some of my favorite from UA so far, but I would prefer pretty much any other way of flavoring this to casual zombie guy shooting off nondescript edge-bolts; a potion thrower? a reckless pyromancer? a clerical dropout? an assassin that can throw normally harmless objects for the damage they would normally do plus your sneak attack? a horrible monster resulting from a teleportation circle accident involving a fly and now you spit acid? Needless to say I'm not too attached to some of the mechanics, even if they are all good in a vacuum.

[Makorel]

I disagree with this. XGE has many very powerful subclasses, but it also has Kensei, Sun Soul, and Drunken Master for Monk, which I often see relegated in favor of Open Hand or Shadow, for Figher it has AA, Cavalier, and Samurai, and while you may see some Samurai build or dips here and there they pale to the ammount of BM of EKs you see. PHB has some of the strongest subclasses in the game (Illusionist), and the Xanathar's feats are largely deemed second rate save for a selected few.

So, no I don't think its power is not in line with PHB. Has it gome some really strong subclases? Sure, PHB has those as well.

You brought up Kensei Monk as being a class generally thought weak, and that's a sentiment I agree with. But there was a time in a bygone age when Kensei was strong and that was when it itself was Unearthed Arcana. Back then the Kensei Monk could use a Greatsword with Dexterity and maybe that's too powerful; I never played the UA version so I can't say. But the subclass we got has numerous issues including an ac bonus that you can't always have, a damage bonus that doesn't even do more overall damage than using flurry of blows for the ki point it spends, and it's a slightly better archer than a normal Monk but still not as good as any other archer character. Like seriously it's as if everyone forgot Monks could already use bows if they really needed the range when they changed Kensei from the greatweapon Monk to the archer Monk.

So we have a class that was nerfed upon official release after review from the playerbase from Unearthed Arcana. Off the top of my head the same thing was done to Storm Barbarian which didn't strike me as too strong to begin with. It's always a worry for me when a subclass that actually does things that are interesting and unique has people crying "OP" because from experience it seems to prompt WotC to tune down those unique and interesting aspects until they're too weak to adequately provide the fantasy they're selling. Granted some things were genuinely overpowered like Lore Wizard and the first couple rounds of Favored Soul but it's not like this is some super competitive e-sport where balance is of the utmost concern to fair play. And it's not the 3.5e days either where balance was whack; so long as everything meets a baseline power level does it really matter if a subclass is one or even two orders of magnitude above another?

[AdAstra]

Overtuned and frontloaded is not the same as OP, but it is still an issue, and the Rune Knight suffers from it pretty severely.

My recommendations would be to

1. Fold Giant Might and the base proficiencies into a rune power.

2. Add more runes, and maybe have the more powerful runes be level-locked (not too high, just like, 7+ or something). Seriously by level 15 you have all but one of the available runes. Depending on what runes are available at low level, maybe have them start with 3 runes. One fertile area they haven't explored is allowing you to create runes on the ground for effects, like providing a stationary buff aura, terrain effect, or even teleport relay (like perhaps a "recall" rune that allows people of your choice within a certain distance to teleport to the rune). Without level-locking, the Skye and Stein runes could afford to be buffed slightly. Maybe Ise and Ild could benefit from scaling, too, like the effect doubling at level 10 or something.

3. Change the level 10 ability. It wasn't very good to begin with and Giant Might's not a separate power anymore. Maybe something that allows you to restore a rune charge without a short rest, or an entirely separate ability. If one insisted on Giant Might being a separate ability, it could go to level 7 and the AC boost ability could go here.

4. Change the 18th level feature if Giant Might is made a rune. Maybe expand its scope, allow the RK to share any rune power instead of just GM, once per short rest. How that would work for the instantaneous runes I have no idea, maybe allow the target to use them within the next minute?

5. Maybe have a limit on the non-instantaneous rune powers, like one active at a time. Would give them more room balance-wise and reduce buff-stacking, which was a big contributor to 3e's balance weirdness. Of course on fighters, and with those durations, it's not nearly as big of a deal, but still. It might give people more reason to use the instantaneous runes at least.

[unusualsuspect]

If we're going to tune the Rune Knight, we should look to the Battlemaster as inspiration (y'know, the fighter subclass that's popular and was explicitly mentioned in comparison to the Rune Knight in the Beyond video by Crawford), not Arcane Archer (which is niche to the point of idiocy and undertuned).

I agree that Giant's Might would probably be better balanced as another Rune (though I think the tool proficiency and language should remain as a default - they're too integral to the class's concept, IMO, to gatekeep behind rune choices), and reduced in damage to match Enlarge (so 1d4 instead of 1d6). This keeps it from being strictly better than the +2 to Str active, IMO, and doesn't make Ranger/Warlock players quite as butthurt.

Resistance to all physical attacks does seem a bit much, though I absolutely abhor the idea that class features can't be replicated in any way, ala "That's Barbarian's schtick, no touchy!" arguments I've seen. Making it a choice of resistance (i.e. pick 1) seems reasonable here, or make it parallel the +2 Str (can increase beyond 20) rune active by giving +2 Con (so +1 hp per level/+1 con saves for a minute), or just give temporary HP.

Uvar also has me salivating, which probably means it's too good as is. I's suggest EITHER gatekeeping it behind a level requirement (but still a level that'd see play - 7th or 10th) OR limiting its reactions per activation by Int Modifier (1 + Int Mod, minimum 1?). I'd prefer the latter, because I'd rather Int not be quite so dumpable for the class, like it so easily can be by EKs. I still absolutely LOVE the concept of Uvar and Skye, because they're actual tools for support tanking in D&D (something I think is often woefully underrepresented).

If Giant's Might is made into a rune, Giant Stature needs something else to boost. I wouldn't mind something a bit more detailed that builds off of each rune, where you pick a rune to enhance (+4 str, pick 2 resistances, additional reaction use of targeted [dis]advantage, additional fire damage per round, additional target for incap, 1d8 damage instead of 1d4, etc. - just examples, not necessarily balanced ones) as a way to further differentiate Rune Knights from each other.

Blessing of the All Father changing to sharing any rune sounds like a good way to modify things if Giant's Might is made into a rune, or could be replaced with a second choice from the Giant Stature suggestions (or even NEW choices to be made, ala Totem Barbarian).





End goal: I want something that competes with (but doesn't overshadow) Battlemaster as something players WANT to play, not something that competes with Arcane Archer or that Purple Knight whatever as something players actively avoid unless they're masochists.

[rbstr]

It is a really complex subclass, and it overall provides more options, its true. But in combat, the benefit of the runes requires costs, opportunity costs. Battlemaster, for instance, needs very little cost for its famous options (like Trip, Menacing/Goading attack, or Precision), almost all its features are "on hit", not taking bonus or reactions. I can see making it's passives weaker, but the active powers I think are just fine where they are.

This is really the crux of it. When you've gotta take 3 bonus actions over 3 rounds to set up your "OP combo" well...the fight is nearly over already anyway. It's all of the passives stacking up that really makes the archetype as a whole be too strong. This class really gives you a lot to do with reactions as well and you simply can't use all of it.
So, while I don't like Giant's Might much personally, it's not out of bounds on power.

I think there's an argument that the action economy really becomes a problem for a Rune Knight at higher levels: The thing actually doesn't scale much since its powers don't get stronger (except giant's might by a tiny bit), you just get more uses. But you still only have so many bonus actions in any practical situation.

I'd rework Giant's might at 3rd level to something else. Then do some stuff more along these lines instead of Giant's Might upgrades:
Scale the Rune powers themselves some how - perhaps pick a rune or two to get enhanced effects or gain smaller passive combat bonuses.
Do something like Samurai's Rapid Strike or Cavalier's extra reactions that actually help you use your more abundant runes in way that gives a more "free" type of boost. Perhaps "activate two runs at once" or keep one effect permanently active.

[Mehangel]

I love the Revived Rogue, but I hate Bolts of the Grave with a burning passion. I just feel that it doesn't thematically fit with the rest of the archetype. Instead, I would much rather have something that does something like let's you attune to any magical item (regardless of alignment or class restrictions), representing that after dying you have become a different person, or that you can relate to or empathize with different people giving insight into item attunement.

Also, am I alone in wishing that the fighter archetype also had a rune for wood/plant manipulation?

[Misterwhisper]

I love the Revived Rogue, but I hate Bolts of the Grave with a burning passion. I just feel that it doesn't thematically fit with the rest of the archetype. Instead, I would much rather have something that does something like let's you attune to any magical item (regardless of alignment or class restrictions), representing that after dying you have become a different person, or that you can relate to or empathize with different people giving insight into item attunement.

Also, am I alone in wishing that the fighter archetype also had a rune for wood/plant manipulation?

I am wondering why there is still not a rogue subclass that allows Sneak attack with non-finesse weapons, like a thug or something.

Also, still no extra attack or fighting style from any of them.

[Kane0]

MFoV has one of them, plus the homebrew forum has at least three. That concept was covered during the first year of 5e easily, sort of low hanging fruit really which is why I suppose the devs never bothered.

[MrStabby]

I do like the rogue. It is thematic and has some cool stuff.

I particularly like the ideal behind audience with death. Sure, the execution is clunky but we now have a martial class with the kind of ability that can change a campaign. Something with a strategic impact that you can do without spells. I think that this should have been swapped with the 3rd level ability though - your character defining thematic ability coming into play after other people get things like the divination and commune spells k8nd of sucks.

[Segev]

I do like the rogue. It is thematic and has some cool stuff.

I particularly like the ideal behind audience with death. Sure, the execution is clunky but we now have a martial class with the kind of ability that can change a campaign. Something with a strategic impact that you can do without spells. I think that this should have been swapped with the 3rd level ability though - your character defining thematic ability coming into play after other people get things like the divination and commune spells k8nd of sucks.

When you say "it's thematic," do you mean "it is an obvious theme for a Rogue," or just that it holds to its own themes well? I agree with the latter, but am curious why you would say the former (if that's what you're saying). Because, to me, it feels very much not-a-rogue archetype. It'd make more sense as a Sorcerer or even a Bard. Maybe a Druid, centering on the "reincarnation/cycle of life and death" theme.