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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    micahaphone's Avatar

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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    So, default, a dragonborn with max dex has an AC cap of 18 before spells. If you modified the feat to still give a cap like that (15 + dex max 3) or the better (16+dex max 2), you're letting them get part of the effect of raising their dex early, but not the other great parts of dex (initiative, dex saves). I think that's a good tradeoff.

    The feat then effectively lets you worry less about your dex, and can focus on cha and con or other feats as you level.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    Quote Originally Posted by FilthyLucre View Post
    Question for the DMs out there:

    Would you allow a Dragonborn Draconic Origin Sorcerer to improve their natural AC from (13 + Dex) to (15 + Dex) if they took the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's Guide to Everything?
    I've only DM'd twice but I'm pretty lenient. I'd allow it.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    Quote Originally Posted by FilthyLucre View Post
    This is pretty paranoid. A Sorcerer can get 16 AC naturally without house rules by being a warforged.
    If your starting point for balance is warforged we have other problems.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    So, default, a dragonborn with max dex has an AC cap of 18 before spells. If you modified the feat to still give a cap like that (15 + dex max 3) or the better (16+dex max 2), you're letting them get part of the effect of raising their dex early, but not the other great parts of dex (initiative, dex saves). I think that's a good tradeoff.

    The feat then effectively lets you worry less about your dex, and can focus on cha and con or other feats as you level.
    Dragon Hide does delay raising Dex, by eating an ASI. (You do also get a point of Str, Con, or Cha back out of the feat, as well as a minor claw attack ribbon.) Which creates two potential options, neither of which strikes me as too OP.

    The first is a rogue, dex fighter, or dex paladin. First, any of these builds would have to sink a level into sorcerer for that part of the AC bonus. Second, since dragonborn don't have a dex bonus or anything to enhance agile characters, you need two and a half ASIs to raise your Dex to 20. Three ASIs for stat raising plus one for the feat means that you're thirteenth level at the earliest for this build. If you try it with a sorcadin who doesn't get the bonus ASIs that fighters and rogues do, you're looking at 16 at the earliest. 20 AC before anything else is nice, but the heavy armor types are probably rocking +1 or +2 plate at this point for essentially the same. One cool trick that comes online a bit into tier 3 isn't that broken in and of itself.

    If the character wants to go pure sorc, the big question is when they want to squeeze in the boosts. While it's potentially doable, focusing on the build early means not placing ASIs into your casting stat, while focusing on it after maxing Cha means that the build only blossoms towards the end of your career. Remember that towards the end of your career is also when legendary items like the robe of archmagi start to come online. Read that, and ask if the attunement slot is really that big an ask compared to having to sink a feat and your race for the dragon hide option.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    Quote Originally Posted by FilthyLucre View Post
    Question for the DMs out there:

    Would you allow a Dragonborn Draconic Origin Sorcerer to improve their natural AC from (13 + Dex) to (15 + Dex) if they took the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's Guide to Everything?
    I'd allow it.
    It's a bit powerful, but nothing really problematic either. I simply don't get all the people crying out loud like virgins facing a troll.
    Honestly, any Sorcerer can get medium armor level for start with a simple Mage Armor: having less than 14 DEX is a bad idea anyways. Having 16 is kinda a tradeoff but it's a legit choice. And I don't know any class with medium armor proficiency that would start with an armor giving more than 14+2.
    Divine Soul Sorcerer gets it even better at low level with Shield of Faith.

    Furthermore, any Sorcerer that really wants a high AC could simply pick a starting level of Fighter for heavy armor + Defense (so 19 base AC).
    Any Sorcerer could also simply dip a level in Life Cleric (you usually don't want to get low WIS either, so managing a 13 is perfectly easy to do especially if you lower DEX in exchange).
    And Cleric also has several domains that make it "a fullcaster with tank-grade starting AC".
    You could yet also put the Bladesinger Wizard in the same category: although it lasts a minute only, it's non-concentration and is usable twice per short rest.

    In other words, if people are afraid of "casters with starting 19+ AC", they should stop playing altogether. This has always been a thing.

    The point about "it's before taking Shield into account" is equally moot imo. Shield requires a slot, which is costly. It's not like you can spam it. Unless you dedicate yourself to being a caster that wades into melee with weapon cantrips or the like and using spells just for self-buffs. In which case you're effectively underplaying your class as soon as you get level 3 spells and more, so giving a boost in AC is really not a problem.

    In addition to that, for your player's Sorcerer to really reach high AC, it would still require him to push DEX. With Sorcerer having no extra ASIs, and having a lower number of spell known than others, you usually want as high a CHA as possible. And since many good spells are concentration, you also want a good CON score.
    -> Getting a really good AC will require a hefty tradeoff whatever way you look at it.

    You allowing player to grab it makes it just a tad better than if he had planned on a multiclass ahead. Nothing more.

    EDIT: by the way, no worries about your OP formulation, it was perfectly clear. It's just that people don't (can't) always take the time of properly reading thread before posting. XD
    Last edited by HiveStriker; 2019-10-21 at 08:05 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    Quote Originally Posted by HiveStriker View Post
    Furthermore, any Sorcerer that really wants a high AC could simply pick a starting level of Fighter for heavy armor + Defense (so 19 base AC).
    So, Str15 or mobile?
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    I'd allow it. I find the Dragonborn race to be a little underpowered and I find the sorcerer class to be so pigeonholed into 1 role, that I consider them underpowered in every other role a players wants to play.

    So I'd allow it.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    I don't understand people claiming this would be OP. Assuming we cap the Dex bonus to +2, how is it more OP than Medium Armor Proficiency? The tradeoffs are that it's a half-feat with a stat a Sorcerer can use, he gets a (pretty useless for a Sorcerer) claw attack, and he doesn't have to actually wear armor that causes disadvantage on stealth checks. But he also doesn't gain proficiency with shields. So his likely AC is lower than someone who took Medium Armor Proficiency.

    So what are we saying is OP? Losing the stealth disadvantage? Gaining +1 Cha instead of +1 Dex? Being able to skip past Light Armor Proficiency first (when the obvious solution is just to take a level of cleric rather than 8 levels worth of ASIs devoted to the same result)?

    It's fine. You're fine. Let them have the bonus. It's not a big deal. It's +2 compared to what he'd get anyway. Just cap the Dex bonus to +2.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    I will add another vote of support behind combining the feat with the Draconic Bloodine changing the math to (if the player wants) 15 + Dex (max +3). As it is Dragonborn are one of the weakest mechanical races in the game. Dragon Hide as a feat is niche at best, other than the stat adjustments everything it gives most classes start off with better options naturally. To make things worse Dragonborn racial resistance already overlaps the optional resistance of the Elemental Affinity granted by Draconic Bloodline (assuming the colors are the same, which is the most likely outcome if you are focusing on flavor). It seems wrong to build a character through logical choices based on flavor (a Dragonborn Sorcerer having a Draconic Bloodline) and having it be worse mechanically than more average options.

    Now with that said, I do agree with the idea that Warforged are dangerous to balance against in terms of racially granted AC (or AC in general). The mark was probably overshot a little with them. The fact that other races which should have similar bonuses (like Dragonborn) just seem pointless in comparison to even the more average races doesn't help matters.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    Quote Originally Posted by bid View Post
    So, Str15 or mobile?
    It's true that having 10 feet less can be a bit daunting at times.
    So I'd probably grab Mobile if I were to make such a Sorcerer AND I wanted to build it as a kinda meleeish guy with melee cantrip.

    If I want to stay as a caster though, honestly it's not that big a deal.
    I mean, in essence you don't want to stay near the frontline neither too much in the open. So you'd usually want to move back to keep as much distance as possible without gimping yourself.

    Meaning the 10 feet difference should really feel a burden only during the first two levels, and after that only rarely cause trouble (well, I'm making the assumption here you're playing in a party, and that party has one or two ways to create and maintain a frontline. Otherwise you'd better simply bail XD).

    Worst case, at low level rely on Expeditious Retreat or Shield to compensate any lack of hindsight or plain surprise. You then quickly get a good choice of defensive spells, either cushioning (Mirror Image) or avoiding (Misty Step), or even concentration spells if you tend to rely on otherwise cantrips/blasting (Blur/Darkness) or simply want to just flee (Invisibility).
    It then goes wider and wider in choice. :)

    Sure, Sorcerer knows less known spells than others, so it's not like you can keep everything at hand, you have to make hard choices (plus so many great offensive spells requiring concentration gives an edge to non-concentration options for defense).
    So that kind of build is clearly complex to play.
    But hey, Sorcerer is already complex to build and play in essence, so it's just one added layer. XD
    (Also, small confession here: I rarely play Sorcerer without just one level into something else. I'm just a craver for spell diversity at low level ^^).

    In any case I wouldn't see boosting STR worth it. Unless, again, you make a "melee caster but wanted Sorcerer at any cost for fluff" (otherwise, unless multiclass, you simply have better options overall imo).

    To be honest however, a Sorcerer in heavy armor is not necessarily something I'd like to play really. I was just stressing the fact it was easy to build early without causing any unmanageable problems (I mean, several Cleric Domains have the exact same "problem", and I never saw many people complaining about it really). :)
    Last edited by HiveStriker; 2019-10-21 at 06:33 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    micahaphone's Avatar

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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    Now I'm imagining a metal covered dragonborn waddling frantically behind his friends while they chase after a thief.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Dragonborn Draconic Sorcerer and AC

    Quote Originally Posted by FilthyLucre View Post
    Question for the DMs out there:

    Would you allow a Dragonborn Draconic Origin Sorcerer to improve their natural AC from (13 + Dex) to (15 + Dex) if they took the Dragon Hide feat from Xanathar's Guide to Everything?
    Yes.
    in a home game, as a dm, see no problem.
    Even if they invest in a 20 Dex. Thats at least two ASI(except on very lucky ability rolls) and a feat, not spent on Cha or improving casting. If they want to have great protection from both being very agile and having (twice the amout of) draconic scales. Let them be the single class Sorcerer with a good AC. its not like he could not ask to play a stone sorcerer or god forbid, multiclass a level or two for armor proficiency.

    Edit: brainfarted, forgot the feat could bump Cha. Still most of the argument stands as its far from OP to have armor class.
    Last edited by chando; 2019-10-22 at 10:23 PM.

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