The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 72
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    So I was flipping through Ghosts of Salt Marsh the other day and I started reading a bit about crashing ships, and more specifically the damage done to things when ships hit them.

    On the one hand, it's not very impressive considering the masses involved. Getting hit by the biggest ship possible (gargantuan) only deals 16d10 (~88) damage. Falling from 200+ feet deals 20d6 (~70) damage But then again, free damage is free damage. So how does one use this?

    I guess the simplest thing to do is simply to have a strong guy carry a Rowboat into battle instead of a shield. A Rowboat only weighs 100 pounds, well within the carrying capacity of a strength-based character. As a Large boat, it deals 4d10 damage when it "crashes" into something, DC 10 Dex save for half. Again, these aren't numbers that are that impressive in a vacuum, but this is effectively free damage for the guy carrying the boat, that 4d10 damage happens just as a result of his move action. Bonus: the boat gives him total cover against stuff on the other side of it, and it has 50 HP, so its pretty tanky at lower levels of play. As an object, it can't be targeted by many spells or effects. At 50 gold, many characters could afford to buy this as a part of their starting gear. That makes this tactic available as of level 1.

    So in summation, a guy can deal 4d10 damage (DC 10 save for half) at-will using no action. The boat will itself be taking damage when you slam it into things, so the mending cantrip seems like a good investment here for between battles. Later when he's flush with cash, he can spend 15,000 GP to upgrade his "weapon" with either an Upgraded Hull (+50 HP) or the Living Vessel upgrade (10 HP regen every round)

    What about at higher levels?

    Well the rest of the ships don't have a weight listed, and there are no huge ships: the Rowboat is the only listed ship that's Large, and the rest are gargantuan. So how do we increase the damage we can deal with this tactic?

    enlarge/reduce

    Casting enlarge on a creature also enlarges anything it is carrying. Which would include the rowboat. As a huge ship, it now deals 8d10 damage when it hits something and can plow through medium and smaller creatures, pushing them to one side, turning our guy into a living snow-plow Problem: the rowboat now weighs 800 pounds! Even with the increased carrying capacity of the boat-wielder's new large size (2X), that's heavier than we can expect a PC to be able to carry. Unless, of course, that PC has the Oversized racial trait, the Bear Totem Aspect of the Beast perk, or something else that improves your carrying capacity. A large Goliath with 16 strength has a carrying capacity of 960 pounds. So with the proper build, this is not a problem even at level 3, when enlarge/reduce becomes available to players.

    So, at level 3 with a simple level 2 spell cast on him by a teammate, our guy can run through a crowd of enemy soldiers, smashing through them, dealing each of them 8d10 damage. Without even using an action.

    Can we take this further?
    Last edited by Damon_Tor; 2019-10-20 at 09:16 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    EvilClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Ship crashes when it moves into an occupied space. Based on how forced movement works, it can't crash if it's not moving on its own. Carrying a boat into battle doesn't work.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    Based on how forced movement works, it can't crash if it's not moving on its own.
    Forced movement is still movement, if an effect excludes forced movement, it says so. The rule for ship crashing does not say this. And further, it wouldn't make any sense if it did: a ship will crash whether it runs aground because the captain is drunk and pilots it into the rocks or whether a hurricane-force gale pushes it there.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Forced movement is still movement, if an effect excludes forced movement, it says so. The rule for ship crashing does not say this. And further, it wouldn't make any sense if it did: a ship will crash whether it runs aground because the captain is drunk and pilots it into the rocks or whether a hurricane-force gale pushes it there.
    Is your objective to prove that the Saltmarsh rules as written are stupid and shouldn't be used? If so congratulations. I will continue not to buy it.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Orc in the Playground
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    GMT-5
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    If there is no 'huge ship' in the rules, where are you getting the 8d10 from?
    If a ship crashes into something by moving into its space, but the ship is carried by a creature, then doesn't the creature have to move into another creature for this to work (which the rules don't allow AFAIK)?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Brookshw's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    As tongue in cheek, I like it. By RAW, it's an improvised weapon when wielded, not a crashing ship, and would do damage accordingly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedhin View Post
    As always, the planes prove to be awesomer than I expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Avatar courtesy of Linklele

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by CheddarChampion View Post
    If there is no 'huge ship' in the rules, where are you getting the 8d10 from?
    A large ship under the effects of enlarge/reduce is huge. There's a chart which lists the amount of damage dealt by and to ship that crash based on size. Huge is 8d10.
    If a ship crashes into something by moving into its space, but the ship is carried by a creature, then doesn't the creature have to move into another creature for this to work (which the rules don't allow AFAIK)?
    No. For one thing, you don't have to be occupying the same space as something to carry it. For another, a rowboat is 10 feet by 10 feet, so even if you were occupying some of its space, there's still plenty left to hit people with.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Is your objective to prove that the Saltmarsh rules as written are stupid and shouldn't be used? If so congratulations. I will continue not to buy it.
    It does seem somewhat silly that being hit by a rowboat at 2mph is as lethal as being hit four times with a Warhammer. But those are the values listed.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    As tongue in cheek, I like it. By RAW, it's an improvised weapon when wielded, not a crashing ship, and would do damage accordingly.
    Which should be a decent amount. 100 lbs of wooden boat hurt when hit.

    I'd probably rule it as doing 2d10 bludgeoning damage, but disadvantage on attack rolls representing its massive size and awkward heft. (And, of course, no proficiency unless you have Tavern Brawler.)
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Brookshw's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Which should be a decent amount. 100 lbs of wooden boat hurt when hit.

    I'd probably rule it as doing 2d10 bludgeoning damage, but disadvantage on attack rolls representing its massive size and awkward heft. (And, of course, no proficiency unless you have Tavern Brawler.)
    House rulings aside, "An object thar bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage". PHB pg 148.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedhin View Post
    As always, the planes prove to be awesomer than I expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Avatar courtesy of Linklele

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    House rulings aside, "An object thar bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage". PHB pg 148.
    Technically correct, which is the worst kind of correct! :P

    While strict RAW might indicate a rowboat does 1d4 damage with no penalties, if you were a player in my game, would you have an issue with my ruling on how it deals damage?
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Tawmis's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Also, wouldn't said Strength Warrior be taking the same amount of damage (4d10 damage), because effectively throwing it is not going to have the same force as carrying it and slamming it into someone. But that that point, said Warrior would also be considered slamming into (the other end) of the rowboat, effectively taking 4d10 damage to themselves.
    Need a character background written up? I do it for free but I am now taking financial donations through paypal if you're so inclined! <3 Now with over 100 character backgrounds written!

    Check out my 5e Module The Secret of Havenfall Manor over at DMsGuild.com! (If you check it out - please rate, comment, and tell others!)

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Brookshw's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Technically correct, which is the worst kind of correct! :P

    While strict RAW might indicate a rowboat does 1d4 damage with no penalties, if you were a player in my game, would you have an issue with my ruling on how it deals damage?
    If I were a player in your game, yes, it would feel on the high side. As an alternative I'd suggest 2d6, largely to keep it inline with other weapons, and to avoid a slippery slope of bad precedence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedhin View Post
    As always, the planes prove to be awesomer than I expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Avatar courtesy of Linklele

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    If I were a player in your game, yes, it would feel on the high side. As an alternative I'd suggest 2d6, largely to keep it inline with other weapons, and to avoid a slippery slope of bad precedence.
    Yeah, I suppose. While it's much HEAVIER than a Maul, it's also made of lighter material and is not designed as a weapon.

    I'd remove disadvantage, in that case.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Sindeloke's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Gender
    Female

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Why are there always so many joyless naysayers on the 5e boards? No one is coming to your house to put a gun to your head to force you to turn some Guy On The Internet's silly thought experiment into literal table rules you have to follow or die.

    Now, "this rule is stupid, let's block it with another stupid rule (improvised weapons being locked to 1d4)" is more sporting, but still doesn't work, since our Boat Guy isn't using it as a weapon, he's just carrying it for its passive effect; it's more like carrying a lantern enchanted with a constant centered-on-self toxic cloud. There's no attack rolls involved or any form of action at all. The boat just Is. "He damages himself too though" could be a real problem, on the other hand - do the rules specify "when the boat enters a creature's space" or simply being in a creature's space?

    Now, we could make Boat Guy a worforged envoy with a built-in rowboat and argue about it becoming a natural attack (damage unknown but doesn't hurt the forged himself), as that also lets us skip past the weight issue (you can always carry yourself) and be self-sufficient (can't drop yourself, can be a caster and provide your own enlarge). But we lose our cover benefits, and the Transformer aesthetic seems less appropriate for this particular character concept than a goliath with a tricorn hat and a huge chunk of wood over his head, anyway.
    Last edited by Sindeloke; 2019-10-20 at 02:04 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2019

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Well the funny part is that the 3 mph/ 15 ft speed of the rowboat means that a goliath or half orc with at least 10 Strength would be able to go faster than that with a dash action+ movement. So tecnically one could use the boat to crash against the enemies even more efficiently than a rowboat on the sea.

    Well sincee this thread is a nightmare of RAW let's add something else:

    If a ship moves into the space occupied by a creature or an object, the ship might crash.

    Now a rowboat requires a crew of 2 to use it. If they aren't there it can't partecilate in combat and as such the boat "can't" decide to crash.
    So a single PC can't use it as a weapon for the 4d10 damage
    Last edited by Trandir; 2019-10-20 at 02:15 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    As tongue in cheek, I like it. By RAW, it's an improvised weapon when wielded, not a crashing ship, and would do damage accordingly.
    You aren't wielding it at all. You're just carrying it with you. You aren't making attacks with it, you're just running around with a rowboat. And as others have noted, you can actually move faster running while carrying the ship than you can while rowing it in the water, so logically it wouldn't make sense for it to do less damage.

    The real question is, why in god's name did they decide getting hit by a rowboat should deal 4d10 damage in the first place?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Now a rowboat requires a crew of 2 to use it. If they aren't there it can't partecilate in combat and as such the boat "can't" decide to crash.
    So a single PC can't use it as a weapon for the 4d10 damage
    Ships don't require a crew to crash. Crashing isn't an action the ship takes, crashing is something that happens whenever the ship enters an occupied square, whether it entered that square under its own power or not is irrelevant. If a kraken throws an empty sailboat into some rocks, it's going to crash.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Brookshw's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    You aren't wielding it at all. You're just carrying it with you. You aren't making attacks with it, you're just running around with a rowboat.
    Quite the stretch considering you could say the exact same thing about a lance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedhin View Post
    As always, the planes prove to be awesomer than I expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Avatar courtesy of Linklele

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Quite the stretch considering you could say the exact same thing about a lance.
    The difference is, there aren't rules explicitly dealing damage to a creature when a lance enters its space. For a rowboat, there are.
    Last edited by Damon_Tor; 2019-10-20 at 02:59 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Brookshw's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    The difference is, there aren't rules explicitly dealing damage to a creature when a lance enters its space. For a rowboat, there are.
    However, by your own admission its being used as a weapon. Exhibit A, the thread title, "The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat". That triggers the improvised weapon rules.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedhin View Post
    As always, the planes prove to be awesomer than I expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Avatar courtesy of Linklele

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    However, by your own admission its being used as a weapon. Exhibit A, the thread title, "The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat". That triggers the improvised weapon rules.
    I didn't capitalize. I'm in the clear.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Brookshw's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    I didn't capitalize. I'm in the clear.
    You don't need to have capitalized, it's a category. Makes no difference here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedhin View Post
    As always, the planes prove to be awesomer than I expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Avatar courtesy of Linklele

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Fighting Demons!

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    I didn't capitalize. I'm in the clear.
    That... That makes no sense.

    If I call you "A damnable fool, with the brains of a sniveling worm!" is that any less insulting than "A damnable FOOL, with the brains of a Sniveling Worm!"

    For what it's worth, it's a funny bit of RAW, but not something that'd be allowed at any table I know of.
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Current Avatar by Elder Tsofu, who is awesome!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Professor Gnoll!
    Show


    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Cdr. Fallout!
    Show

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Clearly what you need to do is cut a hole in the bottom of the rowboat with suspenders to support it around the waist of a goliath barbarian who then just sprints into things.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    WolfInSheepsClothing

    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    That... That makes no sense.
    That's the idea.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Kane0's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Waterdeep
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Which should be a decent amount. 100 lbs of wooden boat hurt when hit.

    I'd probably rule it as doing 2d10 bludgeoning damage, but disadvantage on attack rolls representing its massive size and awkward heft. (And, of course, no proficiency unless you have Tavern Brawler.)
    If I take the Sailor background can I be proficient in boats?

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2014

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Technically correct, which is the worst kind of correct! :P

    While strict RAW might indicate a rowboat does 1d4 damage with no penalties, if you were a player in my game, would you have an issue with my ruling on how it deals damage?
    Yes, I would. It incentivizes things like a rowboat wielder who uses Darkness to cancel out disadvantage so that attacks twice at +8 to hit by 6th level for 2d10+5 on each attack, which simultaneously obsoletes GWM and is absurd. In a world like that, why isn't everybody wielding enormous weapons? Why do greatwords even exist? It would damage my suspension of disbelief and make the game less fun for me so yes, I would have an objection to that ruling, as a player.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Brookshw's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    That's the idea.
    ......., the idea is that your argument is right because you've made a mistake about grammar? Okay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedhin View Post
    As always, the planes prove to be awesomer than I expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by jedipotter View Post
    Logic just does not fit in with the real world. And only the guilty throw fallacy's around.
    Avatar courtesy of Linklele

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    SD
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: The most powerful melee weapon in D&D 5e is... The Rowboat

    Rules aside, a half orc with the sailor background running into foes with a boat ramp is hilarious.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •