OOTS #1183 - Discussion Thread

[TheBST]

For the IFCC's overall plan, given that in #668 they've said they want 'destructive, unnecessary conflict' and their plan taking down the Gods of Good is 'technically true'-

Spoiler

Show

I reckon it's something along the lines of sparking off an Upper-Planes equivalent of the Blood War- putting the pantheons at war with each other in the same kind of unending conflict that their own kind have been stuck in.

Having some the gods themselves screw up the one chance to end the snarl for good would be good fuel for such a conflict.

[Reboot]

While Sabine, Qarr, and a few other minor characters have appeared on the material plane, dialogue from the IFCC on this page suggests to me that they're either incapable or unwilling to manifest physical bodies on the material plane.

According to them, they can "only act directly on the mortal plane when [they]'re making a deal".
Otherwise, they can only act through minions like Qarr or Sabine. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html )

[ShinigamiKenji]

Making my own attempt at a punchline... This conflict has almost as many sides as a d20.

As for the IFCC's plan, I'm willing to bet it has to do either with the world's process of creation, or the planet inside the Snarl's Domain (or whatever name of what Blackwing saw in the rift). I'm more inclined to the latter, because of memory wipe between worlds and the former could have been pulled off before. Maybe that planet was made by the Snarl using the 4 quiddities, and thus could not be destroyed by the 3 pantheons alone.

Oh, well spotted. So "vessel" can be simply a body, not a person.

This only makes Demon Thog even more inevitable.

Since we've seen the return of Hilgya, why not bringing back our least favorite paladin again?

[Bilbo Baggins]

As to the question of what artifact they refer to, I'm not necessarily throwing my vote this way, but has anyone considered the unholy chalice Quarr was trying to get V to mess with?

Qarr didn't start working for the IFCC until after V made the deal. Whatever the chalice is, it was something his previous supervisor was looking for, not the IFCC.

[KatsOfLoathing]

According to them, they can "only act directly on the mortal plane when [they]'re making a deal".
Otherwise, they can only act through minions like Qarr or Sabine. ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html )

Ah, forgot about that, thank you.

Well, we've recently had a book-spanning story arc about a divine entity trying to loophole through metaphysical bureaucracy to advance her evil plan. Why not have three semi-divine entities trying something similar as a subplot for the next one?

[Cirin]

Wow, the comic updated while I was browing the site, how fortuitous So, I guess next book will be all about the IFCC as the antagonist, and the final conflict with Team Evil will be further pushed back? I guess it makes sense, Xykon being the main villain of the entire thing, and all.

I have to wonder if Sabine's "time off" has something to do with her trying to find Nale's soul (it should probably have gone to one of the lower planes, right? He was pretty chummy with fiends, after all), or something.



I would imagine they're indifferent to the world being destroyed, but would really like Hel to lay waste to the Northern Pantheon.

Of course, they don't know that if the world gets blown up, their minds get erased by a collective action of the Gods.

Thor mentioned that the Gods wipe the memories of all Outsiders when they reset the world, because they found out it drives outsiders crazy otherwise.

The world getting blown up by Hel wouldn't have played out the way they thought it would have.

[Schroeswald]

Since we've seen the return of Hilgya, why not bringing back our least favorite paladin again?

Because she's long dead, her arc is ridiculously over and there is no reason to do so? IIRC The Giant has made it pretty clear her story is long over.

Though a personal theory of mine is that Redcloak's Niece will return as a paladin who will remind us of Ms. Miyazaki around her introduction (though less extreme and with a happier ending).

[Cirin]

A mysterious, unnamed, artifact?

Could it be the Ming?

It's the only other Artifact that I can think of that's shown up so far in the comic, and Redcloak even called it "plot central" when it appeared.

Yeah, it was originally a throwaway gag. . .but so was the polearm shop guy. It was many years ago. . .but so was Hilgya.

(I know it's unlikely, but I thought I should point out there is another Artifact in the comic that was even called "plot central" when it appeared.

[Jasdoif]

A mysterious, unnamed, artifact?

Could it be the Ming?

I feel like it being named undercuts it being unnamed.

[137beth]

That's actually an interesting idea. Half-alive, possessed Thog!

I don't post often, but for this... :)

My guess is the vessel is Thog (or whatever is left of him).
The IFCC did mention him as one of their followers and Sabine could easily convince him of anything she wants, especially if she mentions it's revenge for Nale.

Not a bad idea, but I think Tarquin is more likely.

[Schroeswald]

My guess is Tarquin's gone and I doubt its Thog (though that does make sense), so I'll throw my weight behind, I dunno, lets say Redcloak's Niece (actually put my money on "We know so little about this artifact and vessel that speculating is a hopeless cause").

Oh and why are we debating whether Tarquin would want to, this is Sabine mixing business and pleasure, and she would get no pleasure from helping Tarquin achieve his goals, if he is this vessel it isn't voluntary and is her giving him a fate worse than death.

[Riftwolf]

Were V and Shirra sat like that for the whole of the IFCCs evil exposition? Awkward...

[Ruck]

For the IFCC's overall plan, given that in #668 they've said they want 'destructive, unnecessary conflict' and their plan taking down the Gods of Good is 'technically true'-

Spoiler

Show

I reckon it's something along the lines of sparking off an Upper-Planes equivalent of the Blood War- putting the pantheons at war with each other in the same kind of unending conflict that their own kind have been stuck in.

Having some the gods themselves screw up the one chance to end the snarl for good would be good fuel for such a conflict.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I haven't been trying to guess any of the questions raised by this comic because I don't think we have nearly enough information, but it would fit with their seeming desires.

A mysterious, unnamed, artifact?

Could it be the Ming?

It's the only other Artifact that I can think of that's shown up so far in the comic, and Redcloak even called it "plot central" when it appeared.

Yeah, it was originally a throwaway gag. . .but so was the polearm shop guy. It was many years ago. . .but so was Hilgya.

(I know it's unlikely, but I thought I should point out there is another Artifact in the comic that was even called "plot central" when it appeared.

I feel like it being named undercuts it being unnamed.

The artifact being the Ming would have no bearing on the plot. Just like Geoff's son being polearm shop guy had no bearing on the plot.

[Schroeswald]

Were V and Shirra sat like that for the whole of the IFCCs evil exposition? Awkward...

It was awkward because they were waiting for Blackwing's punchline (and I'd bet V knew there was a cutaway to the IFCC but trusted it was just to tease their plan).

[Anansiil]

Roll up our sleeves and get our follower's hands dirty is such a great line!

This discussion is deeply disturbing, I'm intrigued and can't wait to find out how all of this is connected.

[Jasdoif]

The artifact being the Ming would have no bearing on the plot.

That would depend on what the Ming does that makes it an artifact, wouldn't it? What if it's like the evil opposite of a holy grail? This is a silly place, after all.

[Peelee]

That would depend on what the Ming does that makes it an artifact, wouldn't it? What if it's like the evil opposite of a holy grail?

The Ming? It rings. And sometimes dings.

[Reboot]

For the IFCC's overall plan, given that in #668 they've said they want 'destructive, unnecessary conflict' and their plan taking down the Gods of Good is 'technically true'-

Spoiler

Show

I reckon it's something along the lines of sparking off an Upper-Planes equivalent of the Blood War- putting the pantheons at war with each other in the same kind of unending conflict that their own kind have been stuck in.

Having some the gods themselves screw up the one chance to end the snarl for good would be good fuel for such a conflict.

That does and doesn't make sense - to run with it, we need to assume the IFCC do not know what happens when pantheons fight. Which scares the gods enough that even the chaotic ones fall into line with the laws, some grumbling about 'dumb god rules' notwithstanding.

[Schroeswald]

My guess is that the Ming turns you invisible if part of the decorations of your house, but it also helps you get found by the black guards of the the arch fiend Seuron, who it also helps give his power, and thus the halfling are trying to destroy it to stop him from taking over the world

[Petrocorus]

Problem still being that Sabine has never shapeshifted into a skin color not her own, while "the dwarf" (who I'm gonna guess is Shirra), is not Sabine's skin color (and the only dwarf we've seen that seems to match is Kandro).

The succubus polymorph ability can change race, sex, eye colour, haircut, height, weight, body type, gear, clothes, etc.

But somehow it cannot change skin and hair color?

I think you're reading WAYYY too much into this.

[Lheticus]

Oooooooookay there's a LOT to unpack here. The IFCC WANTS the OOTS world destroyed?

[Particle_Man]

I wonder if the friends have the same plan every world but always have their minds wiped so have the plan again “for the first time”. This is the first world lasting long enough for their plan to maybe succeed.

[Xel]

Hmm. Now I’m wondering if they’re setting something up for a TE pawn http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html. What can demon roaches do with an unnamed artifact?

Also, I’d like to point out that there’s still wiggle-room in the IFCC statements for them to be against the destruction of the world. The gods didn’t actually stop Hel’s plan either, which could fit (although it seems less likely). Or maybe I’ve just done too many evil-genie deals in games...

[Breccia]

Oooooooookay there's a LOT to unpack here. The IFCC WANTS the OOTS world destroyed?

I'm not sure they do. But then, they've been pretty hush-hush about what their plan actually is -- other than, they need conflict for it to work. Possibly as the goal itself, but probably as a distraction.

While the IFCC are LE, NE, and CE fiends working together, and they also seem to hint pretty heavily they're going to bring down the Gods of Good, for some reason I'm not sure their goal is so simple. They talk a lot in legalese and technicalities. If they just wanted the world destroyed, they probably could have worked with Hel to make that happen.

[jwhouk]

Could the rubies have something to do with the gate fixing spell - not that V would necessarily know this, but as a MacGuffin of sorts?

[deuterio12]

Yay the 3 f(r)iends are back!

I'm not sure they do. But then, they've been pretty hush-hush about what their plan actually is -- other than, they need conflict for it to work. Possibly as the goal itself, but probably as a distraction.

While the IFCC are LE, NE, and CE fiends working together, and they also seem to hint pretty heavily they're going to bring down the Gods of Good, for some reason I'm not sure their goal is so simple. They talk a lot in legalese and technicalities. If they just wanted the world destroyed, they probably could have worked with Hel to make that happen.

Remember that Hel's plan wasn't just to destroy the world. That was just a step.

Hel's plan was to destroy the world and becoming the strongest god of the Northen Pantheon by sucking in millions of dwarf souls. An extra-evil goddess deciding how the next world runs. (Clearly dwarf souls are a lot more valuable than any other souls and they're usually so hard to kill that there's actually more living than dead, otherwise Hel's plan was doomed from the start because the other gods would've been cashing in the millions of other souls plus all previous dwarf souls Hel missed but nevermind those details, somehow it would've just worked).

So with extra-evil Hel positioned as a major deity, any good gods would find themselves in a pretty inferior position.

And hey Hel's bet is still up, so as long as the 3 f(r)iends manage to trigger the world destruction, she still gets to cash in those superior quality dwarven souls, except if getting killed by the gods blowing up the world counts as honorable too.

Wait, that's it!

1-Dwarf souls are the most valuable souls by far.
2-Hel wants dem delicious dwarf souls. This is, why take the bet in the first place that you can only collect (a fraction of) dwarf souls when you could be collecting souls from all mortal races unless dwarf souls are extra valuable?
3-But can't get any dwarf souls that die 'honorably'.
4-As shown by Thor and Loki, any death can be painted as 'honorable' because there's no god of honor in Oots to define it, it's just a word that means anything Thor and Loki wants it to mean when they want, so Hel will just starve to death for all they care even if the world was destroyed.
5-However Thor and Loki don't get to cash on those 'honorable' souls themselves.
6-Those souls going somewhere. Somewhere we can't see yet.
7-The 3 f(r)iends have been shown to be in the soul collection business too.
8-So clearly the 3 f(r)iends have set things up so they'll be the ones collecting the souls!
9-If the world gets destroyed, all 3 f(r)iends will collect dem delicious dwarf souls and be empowered with limitless divine power!
10-?
11-Slay the good gods.

[Ruck]

Hey has Qarr’s color been changed? It looks a bit lighter than before.

Also I feel like Qarr’s skin now matches the hands of the IFCC which is something.

The wings stood out to me as lighter than before, but a side-by-side comparison suggests they're not really.

[Peelee]

(Clearly dwarf souls are a lot more valuable than any other souls and they're usually so hard to kill that there's actually more living than dead, otherwise Hel's plan was doomed from the start because the other gods would've been cashing in the millions of other souls plus all previous dwarf souls Hel missed but nevermind those details, somehow it would've just worked).

Let's play with numbers.

Assume 2 million dwarves (just to keep the plural "millions"). 10 million humans, why not. Three million elves, and let's say twenty million various other races combined.

Hel gets all 2 million dwarves. Let's now assume the single absolute best possible case scenario against Hel, which is that literally every other soul on the planet goes to the Northern Pantheon. They still get divided up between 17 other gods. So, 33 million into 17 gods gets us 1.9 million souls per god*. Hel still comes out on top.

Now I just made up those numbers, but you know what? We don't know the population count of Stickworld, which means those could be totally valid. In fact, since we don't know the population count, you can just assume those numbers or less and it works perfectly without needing dwarven souls to be "more valuable."

*I didn't even know what the final count was going to be, so it's damned cool it worked out that way, I gotta say

[Emperor Time]

Even if the IFCC succeed in eliminating the good gods, it will probably cause all the neutral gods to stop being so neutral and possibly fight the evil gods to the death. And if that happens then there no gods left and maybe that is the true goal of the IFCC, to have a world where there no gods.

[Ron Miel]

Why are we discussing whether Sabine can change her skin color? Of course she can.

She's never done it in the comic, even when changing her skin colour would have improved her disguise (by making it even harder for the Order to detect her). It's possible that she can do it, but it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that she can't.

Sabine has changed into a facsimile of an Azurite woman with white face paint. The white appears to actually be part of her body, not make up that she has applied. If she can do that, she can make her skin any colour she wants.

Or if it is make up, which has been created by magic, then she can create make up to lighten or darken her skin to any colour she wants.