Ur-Priest Rapid Spellcasting.

[Ad Astare]

Hi, I'm really new to 3.5/PF as a system. I've checked out Ur-Priest as a class I might play in the future, but I don't understand the "rapid spellcasting" mechanic a lot of threads focus on. Can anyone clear this up to me? Thanks.

[Hellpyre]

The Ur-Priest gains access to 9-th level spells with only 10 levels of progression, instead of 17 for a base class. And if you enter normally, you still get the last few, most impactful spell levels, before normal casters.

It's quite powerful.

[mouser13]

So you can do things like enter wizard then ur-priest and mystic theurge do get 9th level spells into two classes

[Saintheart]

Also very useful for item crafting, because magic item costs are keyed off the item's spell level and the creator's caster level, typically a formula of [spell level] x [caster level] x [some hideous sum of gold]. For wizards or clerics, it's usually large multipliers since they only get high level spells at high character levels - but the Ur-Priest gets 9th level spells at 9th level in Ur-Priest, meaning the highest multiplier he'll ever have to suffer is 81: 9 [spell level] x 9 [caster level].

[Ad Astare]

So you can do things like enter wizard then ur-priest and mystic theurge do get 9th level spells into two classes

How exactly would you do this? Take enough levels of wizard to fulfill the requirement for ur-priest, take one level, then use alternative spell source to take mystic theurge levels? I've been trying to build this character for a while but could never put it all together.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How exactly would you do this? Take enough levels of wizard to fulfill the requirement for ur-priest, take one level, then use alternative spell source to take mystic theurge levels? I've been trying to build this character for a while but could never put it all together.

It takes nine levels of wizard to meet the base Fortitude save requirement of Ur-Priest. To cut the required levels and attain 9ths early, you would likely go with something like wizard 4/fort save dip 1/ur-priest 2/mystic theurge 7, which produces a 14th-level character capable of casting 9th-level spells (three levels ahead of a straight cleric) and 6th-level wizard spells.


You can also do something like paladin of tyranny 2/marshal 1/battle dancer 1/crusader 1/ur-priest 2/casting PrC 7, which again produces a 14th-level character capable of casting 9th-level spells, but you have a large number of bonuses, including Charisma to all saves, Charisma to CL to overcome SR, and Charisma to AC (when not wearing armour, that is). The paladin levels even provide +1 caster level to Ur-Priest, which, when combined with Practiced Spellcaster's +4, works out to a full caster level of 14. If you are starting at level 11, such a build is on par (in terms of highest level spell slot) with a straight cleric.


The most notable drawback of being an Ur-Priest is that you don't qualify for PrCs that require you to worship a particular deity. In the build above, Ruby Knight Vindicator would be a perfect fit, but it requires you to worship Wee Jas, and so is incompatible.

[Kelb_Panthera]

How exactly would you do this? Take enough levels of wizard to fulfill the requirement for ur-priest, take one level, then use alternative spell source to take mystic theurge levels? I've been trying to build this character for a while but could never put it all together.

Why would you need alternative spell source? Ur-priest spells are divine spells.

Anyway, all that's meant by "rapid spellcasting" is that the class progresses through spell levels faster than other casting classes; 9th level spells in 9 levels instead of 17, as has already been explained upthread.

If you want to make the most of it, IMO, the build is savage bard 5/ ur-priest 2/ mystic theurge 3/ sublime chord 1/ mystic theurge +5/ (arcane PrC) 4. You net double-9s with the benefits of both spontaneous and prepared casting and draw from 3 lists; cleric, sorcerer, and bard.

[Thurbane]

Also very useful for item crafting, because magic item costs are keyed off the item's spell level and the creator's caster level, typically a formula of [spell level] x [caster level] x [some hideous sum of gold]. For wizards or clerics, it's usually large multipliers since they only get high level spells at high character levels - but the Ur-Priest gets 9th level spells at 9th level in Ur-Priest, meaning the highest multiplier he'll ever have to suffer is 81: 9 [spell level] x 9 [caster level].

Huh... that's an excellent point. I'd never thought about that aspect of fast-progression classes before!

[Covenant12]

Kelb has one that looks appealing, hadn't seen that.
Sublime Chord skill reqs are non-trivial, you'd need fairly good Int, Wis, and Cha to enjoy it. Or the feat that removes cross-class skill cost penalty, but that limits race.

A common Wizard build is Wizard5/Mindbender1/Urpriest2/MTheurge10/ArcanePrC2. Using a feat to only take 1 Urpriest level is an option. But rebuke undead at Urpriest 2 is also valuable, depends on priorities. And then that's one feat you didn't spend.

RAW, you definitely have no god that you follow. The flavor text implies the DM could easily modify it for someone who hates all *other* gods, like Tharizdun or Shar.

[Ramza00]

Ur Priest also synergizes well with Binder where you worship the "dead god" Tenebrous (also known as demon lord Orcus except Orcus is a confusing mess for sometimes he is a demon, sometimes a god, and sometimes a dead god and when a dead god he is a vestige. Aka check with your DM and figure out where you want his essence to be currently.) But yeah Ur Priests make great binders + divine spellcasters who worship Orcus.

Then again you can also be a Cleric and worship Tenebrous if you take the feat Servant of the Fallen. Thus whether a

Binder / Cleric / Anima Mage / Tenebrous Apostate
or a
Binder / Ur Priest / Anima Mage / Tenebrous Apostate

is better is dependent on which levels of play we are using. Both builds are almost a full binder and with Anima Mage / Tenebrous Apostate goodness. The Cleric version long term gets more spells per day, and it gets spellcasting earlier at levels 1 to 6 or 7, but eventually the Ur Priest with its faster progression gets 9th level spells at ECL 14 instead of 17. Thus some levels each of these builds shine.

[Ad Astare]

Why would you need alternative spell source? Ur-priest spells are divine spells.

I'm not sure exactly how its supposed to work, but someone tried to explain to me that it allows for earlier entry into mystic theurge. Again I could be wrong.

[Zombulian]

I'm not sure exactly how its supposed to work, but someone tried to explain to me that it allows for earlier entry into mystic theurge. Again I could be wrong.

Probably so you can use Wizard to prepare Divine spells and take care of the 2nd level Divine prereq but then progress Ur casting in MT. As others have said, Rebuke Undead is nice, and the Alt Source Spell option costs an extra feat. But if you really want to avoid losing Wiz casting levels it’s a decent option.

Edit: Alternate Source Spell actually allows any build (at least, with prepared casting progression) to enter Mystic Theurge at level 5, since the skill prereqs are so low. Might be able to cheese with Arcane Preparation and Versatile Spellcaster to get in even earlier too.
Example: Wiz 1/Archivist 1/Wiz or Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge X. If you pick up Alt Source Spell at 3 you’re golden.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A simple illumian wizard 2/cleric 1 with Improved Krau Sigil enters MT at level 4, with full CL on both sides, too.

[Zombulian]

A simple illumian wizard 2/cleric 1 with Improved Krau Sigil enters MT at level 4, with full CL on both sides, too.

Using Naenhoon and Heighten Spell?

Edit: Oh I forgot about the Improved Sigil feats!

[DEMON]

Edit: Oh I forgot about the Improved Sigil feats!

Yes, that's the feat in question. Improved Sigil (Krau) is a simple enough early entry method.

[Ramza00]

Yes, that's the feat in question. Improved Sigil (Krau) is a simple enough early entry method.

Improved Sigil Krau is such an elegant Mystic Theurge. Besides getting you early entry it also gives you a caster level boost of 2 up to your hit dice max. Thus if your build is never going past level 13, or even if it is you are only 1 level behind in your main class, 2 levels behind in your secondary class and thus have all thus juicy spell slots.

Plus after level 6 you can now use your Improved Sigil Kraus as a free heighten to two of your spells so in some ones you may have better spell save dcs than a normal wizard who did not invest in feats that boost save dcs. You are a generalist who is awesome.

[Remuko]

The most notable drawback of being an Ur-Priest is that you don't qualify for PrCs that require you to worship a particular deity. In the build above, Ruby Knight Vindicator would be a perfect fit, but it requires you to worship Wee Jas, and so is incompatible.

is this true? im pretty new to ur priest outside of hearing it talked about a lot but when i looked it up, it just said you need to have no divine casting. nothing in RAW i could see stops you from worshiping any gods, you just dont get spells thru worship like most divine casters do (and you needed to not be a divine caster before entering the class).

[ExLibrisMortis]

is this true? im pretty new to ur priest outside of hearing it talked about a lot but when i looked it up, it just said you need to have no divine casting. nothing in RAW i could see stops you from worshiping any gods, you just dont get spells thru worship like most divine casters do (and you needed to not be a divine caster before entering the class).

Well, the first words in the Ur-Priest description are: "Ur-priests despise gods". There is otherwise very little information, but generally speaking, deities do not like being stolen from, and ur-priests don't like deities, so the chances of a "worship"-type relation existing between ur-priests and deities are slim.

Put it this way: If you enforce any sort of limits on what a worshiper of some deity can do without losing that worshiper status, being an ur-priest is pretty much guaranteed to be outside those limits, no matter what deity it actually is.

[Kelb_Panthera]

is this true? im pretty new to ur priest outside of hearing it talked about a lot but when i looked it up, it just said you need to have no divine casting. nothing in RAW i could see stops you from worshiping any gods, you just dont get spells thru worship like most divine casters do (and you needed to not be a divine caster before entering the class).

Did you read the description before the rules text? By default, ur-priests -loathe- the gods and draw their power by stealing it from the same. There's a suggestion to adapt it to the worship of dead gods but it's supposed to be incompatible with worshiping an active deity.

[Aotrs Commander]

The way it was constructed and the fluff seems to suggest to me that it was intended to be used by, like, single-class CLERICS. (One suspects that the early 3.5 authors never considered PrCs, let alone PrC with +1 spellcasting levels working on PrC with spell progression...)

Except that it requires 6 ranks of Bluff; so, Trickery Domain clerics, a multiclass dip or you're not taking it until level 13 (cross-class costing double points and a max of half your level in RAW 3.5,) and you better than high intelligence) - actually those skill requirements are pretty steep for something they implied was supposed to be a cleric-class (though if you were porting it to PF or 3.5 house-ruled to PF-like, you'd have a much easier time). And thereby you'd reach level 6 (at best?), presumably, completely loose all your spellcasting from the last five levels and then suck for several levels before your double-speed progression finally outstrips the primary casters two levels early. Maybe.

Oh, and you have to be Evil character (who hates gods) and pay a feat tax of Iron Will (on a caster class...) and Spell Focus (Evil) which does not cover a particularly large amount of useful spells, especially compared to Spell Focus (pick a school of magic).

Ur-Priest's apparently intended use is sort of the glowing example of the problem why "it's okay that's it's ovepowered later, because it sucks now" mentality is not good rules design.

And outside of it's apparent intended use (i.e single-classed clerics), it's so good, it gets recommended pretty much every time dual-progression casters get mentioned.

(I wonder if everyone remembers that by RAW you do have to be Evil and that is, regardless of mechanics, not uncomonly a non-starter in actual play. (I mean, I have a lot of Evil parties, but even my rule is either everyone is Evil or no-one is Evil.))

[DEMON]

The way it was constructed and the fluff seems to suggest to me that it was intended to be used by, like, single-class CLERICS. (One suspects that the early 3.5 authors never considered PrCs, let alone PrC with +1 spellcasting levels working on PrC with spell progression...)

Except that it requires 6 ranks of Bluff; so, Trickery Domain clerics, a multiclass dip or you're not taking it until level 13 (cross-class costing double points and a max of half your level in RAW 3.5,).

You can hit 6 ranks in a cross class skill at level 9 (2 ranks at 1st level, +1 for 2 additional levels), so Ur-Priest would be accessible at level 10.
You'd need about 4 skill points per level to meet all the skill requirements.

[Aotrs Commander]

You can hit 6 ranks in a cross class skill at level 9 (2 ranks at 1st level, +1 for 2 additional levels), so Ur-Priest would be accessible at level 10.
You'd need about 4 skill points per level to meet all the skill requirements.

Yes, of course, sorry, it's been so long since I used 3.5 cross-class skills like they original wrote, my maths was off.



That makes more sense, since they seem to have apparently expected you to get to level 10 and then spend all of the remaining 20 levels sucking worse than if you'd not bothered. (Hense the apparent gain of 9th level spell (singular...) at the last level - they just may not have considered anyone getting it earlier than that.

...

Also, Ur-Priest caster level appears to be PrC level plus hald other caster levels, which would put it at 15 at 20th with feats or something...



I can't offhand think of a class that's more swingy. Utter crap on one hand, and far too good on the other...



(Oh, and of course there's that other issue of the stipulation you have to be trained by anothr Ur-Priest; I don't know how much attention other DMs generally give to that sort of thing (I don't, myself, because classes and PrC are explictly metagame constructs under my purview).)

[Remuko]

Did you read the description before the rules text? By default, ur-priests -loathe- the gods and draw their power by stealing it from the same. There's a suggestion to adapt it to the worship of dead gods but it's supposed to be incompatible with worshiping an active deity.

I mean thats fair, but thats why I mentioned RAW. Its common around here that fluff text is not rules, its mutable. I see no reason an Ur Priest has to despise gods, or they could despise gods and still worship them...human(oids) are complex like that. Worshiping a god, even the one youre stealing from, doesn't prevent you from taking the class. There are no restrictions saying as much. *shrug* Ur Priest RKV seems fine to me.

[Rebel7284]

You could also arrange for Wee-Jas to be killed and then begin worshiping her. As the other RKVs lose their power, you gain yours!