Is There Anything Good About Mystic Theruge Prestige Class?

[Darg]

Taking Practiced Spellcaster will give you up to +4 CL for each class you take it for.

[Aotrs Commander]

Mystic Theurge is alright unless you go past ten levels. Epic Mystic Theurge really is worthless.

That is the worst class design of any stripe I've ever seen and I have NEVER been able to understand how an actual person smart enough to be able to read and write words and comprehend the concept of an RPG could look at that and not go "that's the most stupid thing I've seen in my life/unlife."

It's LITERALLY WORSE than taking additional levels of the base class. Mystic Theurge has ONE JOB and the Epic Theurge doesn't even do THAT.

A class which is quite literally completely self-defeating.

[elonin]

Make your divine side self buffs or ally buffs that last 10 mins per level, or 1 hour per level. Especially with rods of extend lesser.

For example Conviction is 10 min per level as a 1st level spell or a 3rd level spell as a mass version.

It gives +2 to saves as a moral bonus at level 1, +3 at cl 6, +4 at cl 12, and +5 at cl 18.

Thus at caster level 9 your duration is 90 mins per level, with a rod of extend this is 3 hours per level. Cast this 3 times a day with a rod of extend lesser and you have 9 hours of buffs.

Same idea with other spells that are 10 mins per level, 1 hour per level, 24 hours and so on.

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Yes it is more book keeping and set up prior to actually playing with your friends, but the amount of work you do while playing with your friends is not much harder.

In fact this is kind of a benefit of Mystic Theurge ending at level 10 and thus Caster Level 11 (early entry) or 13 without using a second prestige class. There is a limit on the amount of spells and buffs to track.
Level 7 to 9 spells are either all day buffs or used to kill things, and you only have some actions in combat to kill things so the benefits of having a second level 7 to 9 spell casting class actually is not that helpful.

Is the mystic theurge strictly the same power wise as a ultimate magus?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is the mystic theurge strictly the same power wise as a ultimate magus?

Gods no. UM has actual class features, good ones at that. It's not even really in the same ballpark with the UM's metamagic mitigation. The only trick with UM is that if you want to have the spontaneous side as your primary, you've got to jump through some hoops but that's fairly minor.

[Darg]

Epic Theurge doesn't even do THAT.

How is that? You get double the number of total spells per day and double the number of epic spells per day. A 1 level dip could net you triple the amount of epic spells. Once you hit level 25, (27 if you went 17/13) your normal spellcasting tops out regardless. With a couple feats you could be only -1/-1 CL.

If that isn't powerful, I don't know what is for epic level characters.

[bean illus]

How is that? You get double the number of total spells per day and double the number of epic spells per day. A 1 level dip could net you triple the amount of epic spells. Once you hit level 25, (27 if you went 17/13) your normal spellcasting tops out regardless. With a couple feats you could be only -1/-1 CL.

If that isn't powerful, I don't know what is for epic level characters.

Well when you say it like that, a favored soul/ sorcerer/ theurge/ arcane hierophant with versatile caster, practiced spellcaster and arcane fusion sounds like a Tommy gun.

[Ravens_cry]

It lets you play the concept at all. Is it as powerful or more powerful than a wizard or cleric alone, barring stinky Stilton level cheesehood? No. But those are top tier classes, the most mostest. Not being most mestest doesn't mean not playable.
It is more playable than alternating Wizard, Cleric, Wizard, Cleric. Like Arcane Trickster, it's a synergy class.

[Aotrs Commander]

How is that? You get double the number of total spells per day and double the number of epic spells per day. A 1 level dip could net you triple the amount of epic spells. Once you hit level 25, (27 if you went 17/13) your normal spellcasting tops out regardless. With a couple feats you could be only -1/-1 CL.

If that isn't powerful, I don't know what is for epic level characters.

I think you're missing my point - EMT's failure is that the Epic Prestidge Class doesn't give you anything that you can't, at that point, already get by advancing your base classes instead (like you will have been doing for the past five levels.)

The Epic Mystic Theurge doesn't give you dual casting progression. Each level, you only progress either arcane (odd levels) or divine spellcaster class level (even levels), not both. So what's the gain over taking a level of wizard or cleric, say?

Epic Casting Casting means you have to meet the prerequistes to access that spell slot (technically, I suppose by their wording, you could meet both the nature and religion pre-reqs at once and get twice as many divine spells; (though you might have to have knowledge domain to do so) - sure, you could meet 9/9 casting at level 24 - if you DON'T take Epic Mystic Theurge, which FORCES you to take arcane at every odd level and divine at every even. So if you were 17 cleric/13 wizard, hard lines, you have to increase wizard first. So you will qualify for epic spells (for what dubious value as they are, considering) for both classes only at level 28 if you went 17/13... Four levels later than if you just took four levels in whichever class was behind - and you dont get any gain from it!

Literally the ONLY thing EMT gives you is that you can get a bonus Epic Feat at level 26 by adding +3/+3 to your caster classes (so 20/18).

As opposed to taking six levels of your regular class (say 23/13), which you would have to put all into one class to give you a bonus feat. Plus, if, say, one class was Wizard, you could get a bonus feat for your regular wizard class levels that you could turn into an epic feat by adding either adding 3 or 2 levels (on 17/13) or five levels (if 15/15)...!



Like I said, it's basically unilaterally worse in virtually every instance than just taking more levels of your base classes! (I mean, they might progress your actual class features, or give you a better HD, even!)

[ranagrande]

I think you're missing my point - EMT's failure is that the Epic Prestidge Class doesn't give you anything that you can't, at that point, already get by advancing your base classes instead (like you will have been doing for the past five levels.)

The Epic Mystic Theurge doesn't give you dual casting progression. Each level, you only progress either arcane (odd levels) or divine spellcaster class level (even levels), not both. So what's the gain over taking a level of wizard or cleric, say?

Epic Casting Casting means you have to meet the prerequistes to access that spell slot (technically, I suppose by their wording, you could meet both the nature and religion pre-reqs at once and get twice as many divine spells; (though you might have to have knowledge domain to do so) - sure, you could meet 9/9 casting at level 24 - if you DON'T take Epic Mystic Theurge, which FORCES you to take arcane at every odd level and divine at every even. So if you were 17 cleric/13 wizard, hard lines, you have to increase wizard first. So you will qualify for epic spells (for what dubious value as they are, considering) for both classes only at level 28 if you went 17/13... Four levels later than if you just took four levels in whichever class was behind - and you dont get any gain from it!

Literally the ONLY thing EMT gives you is that you can get a bonus Epic Feat at level 26 by adding +3/+3 to your caster classes (so 20/18).

As opposed to taking six levels of your regular class (say 23/13), which you would have to put all into one class to give you a bonus feat. Plus, if, say, one class was Wizard, you could get a bonus feat for your regular wizard class levels that you could turn into an epic feat by adding either adding 3 or 2 levels (on 17/13) or five levels (if 15/15)...!



Like I said, it's basically unilaterally worse in virtually every instance than just taking more levels of your base classes! (I mean, they might progress your actual class features, or give you a better HD, even!)

It's also worse than switching to any other prestige class. Even in a core-only game, a Mystic Theurge can qualify easily enough to be a Loremaster and get 10 levels with class features, one of which could be the epic feat that MT gets. Continuing after, the Epic Loremaster is identical to the Epic Mystic Theurge except that it gets more class skills, more skill points, and three times as many bonus feats.

[Darg]

The Epic Mystic Theurge doesn't give you dual casting progression. Each level, you only progress either arcane (odd levels) or divine spellcaster class level (even levels), not both. So what's the gain over taking a level of wizard or cleric, say?

I'm not a fan of the Accessory Update Booklet and take it with a good helping of salt as it conflicts with other books' guides for progressing epic level prestige classes such as the CA and CD.

If you wish to follow that example, any dual progression PrC is worthless beyond it's 10th level as it would have to have split progression instead.

Epic Spellcasting slots are cumulative for every prerequisite acquired. Meaning 9th level arcane, 9th level divine, and all 3 knowledge skills mean 3 knowledges worth of epic spell slots.

It's also worse than switching to any other prestige class. Even in a core-only game, a Mystic Theurge can qualify easily enough to be a Loremaster and get 10 levels with class features, one of which could be the epic feat that MT gets. Continuing after, the Epic Loremaster is identical to the Epic Mystic Theurge except that it gets more class skills, more skill points, and three times as many bonus feats.

If you want to follow the version on the SRD website, then yes. However if you do, you'll have to follow that example for all dual progression classes, which makes all of them worthless to make Epic as the base classes are generally better for alternating progressions regardless.

[ranagrande]

If you want to follow the version on the SRD website, then yes. However if you do, you'll have to follow that example for all dual progression classes, which makes all of them worthless to make Epic as the base classes are generally better for alternating progressions regardless.

That is correct, but even then Epic Mystic Theurge is still more useless than all the others: True Necromancer advances Rebuke Undead. Arcane Hierophant advances Animal Companions, Familiars, and Wildshape, and gets more skill points. Fochlucan Lyrist advances Bardic Knowledge and gets more skill points. All three of them have a d6 HD to the Mystic Theurge's d4.

[Aotrs Commander]

I'm not a fan of the Accessory Update Booklet

Nor am I, nor of the couple of paragraphs or half-arsing it they put in the aforementioned that were so brief and ephermeral, I had forgotten they existed until you mentioned it and I went to look. (And even then, there's some arguement

3.5's epic rules were terrible and poorly considered add-ons, in reality; the fact that they actually released the rules for EMT in that state at all is basically the paragon demonstration of that; it shows every sign of being knocked out for the booklet in a rush at the last minute without being considered (and DEFINATELY not playtested).



I mean, if the MT I have in my group reaches Epic (wrong party for that, though) I would just flat give hiim the dual-progression it should have had.

Epic Spellcasting slots are cumulative for every prerequisite acquired. Meaning 9th level arcane, 9th level divine, and all 3 knowledge skills mean 3 knowledges worth of epic spell slots.

Yes, but with the EMT-as-written doesn't get yolu there faster than single class prgression (regular MT puts you in position to do so, and argueably True Necromancer does even better.)

...

I have never quite understood why True Necromancer seems to get more flack. Aside from the more niche enter requirements (and the problem it does that it takes a bit longer to get off to a start, which is a fair problem), but it gives you a better end result (for keeping the class even, though not for getting 9ths), it is HAS some class features, even if they're throw away; but surely most of the early entry tricks on MT would do you better on TN, if you wanted that particular paradigm...?

[Darg]

That is correct, but even then Epic Mystic Theurge is still more useless than all the others: True Necromancer advances Rebuke Undead. Arcane Hierophant advances Animal Companions, Familiars, and Wildshape, and gets more skill points. Fochlucan Lyrist advances Bardic Knowledge and gets more skill points. All three of them have a d6 HD to the Mystic Theurge's d4.

Then what are you roleplaying as? AH explicitly states Trackless Step as a class feature. I'm pretty sure the work arounds mostly apply to racial features. Also, AH makes your companion into a familiar; you don't get both. So unless you fudge your way in, you are stuck being specifically druid for 3 levels minimum. True Necromancer requires you playing as a necromancer, giving up a further 2 levels of progression for each of your classes, and to play as a non-good character.

Nor am I, nor of the couple of paragraphs or half-arsing it they put in the aforementioned that were so brief and ephermeral, I had forgotten they existed until you mentioned it and I went to look. (And even then, there's some arguement

3.5's epic rules were terrible and poorly considered add-ons, in reality; the fact that they actually released the rules for EMT in that state at all is basically the paragon demonstration of that; it shows every sign of being knocked out for the booklet in a rush at the last minute without being considered (and DEFINATELY not playtested).



I mean, if the MT I have in my group reaches Epic (wrong party for that, though) I would just flat give hiim the dual-progression it should have had.





Yes, but with the EMT-as-written doesn't get yolu there faster than single class prgression (regular MT puts you in position to do so, and argueably True Necromancer does even better.)

...

I have never quite understood why True Necromancer seems to get more flack. Aside from the more niche enter requirements (and the problem it does that it takes a bit longer to get off to a start, which is a fair problem), but it gives you a better end result (for keeping the class even, though not for getting 9ths), it is HAS some class features, even if they're throw away; but surely most of the early entry tricks on MT would do you better on TN, if you wanted that particular paradigm...?

As you said, TN basically slows down your progression by 1 spell level until 20 where it catches up to MT and doesn't have to option of getting 9th level spells. I personally think that spell levels, while powerful, don't make you that much less effective if you don't have access to them. You are still able to make up some by using items and crafting.

That said, taking something as written (looking at you versatile spellcaster and heighten spell) isn't always the best rule. Especially when looking at the poorly exampled dual progression classes in epic levels. I mean, would you take dual progression into epic levels if all dual epic progressions were alternating instead of parallel?

[bean illus]

Then what are you roleplaying as? AH explicitly states Trackless Step as a class feature. I'm pretty sure the work arounds mostly apply to racial features.

Wildrunner - RotW, half elf, any good or chaotic, E6

I mean, would you take dual progression into epic levels if all dual epic progressions were alternating instead of parallel?

No, I wouldn't.

[Darg]

Wildrunner - RotW, half elf, any good or chaotic, E6

Nice, too bad you are forced to be elf or half-elf. Would also delay progression access by 1 level.

No, I wouldn't.

Which is why discretion is necessary for sure. Full dual progression for every one.

[ranagrande]

Then what are you roleplaying as? AH explicitly states Trackless Step as a class feature. I'm pretty sure the work arounds mostly apply to racial features. Also, AH makes your companion into a familiar; you don't get both. So unless you fudge your way in, you are stuck being specifically druid for 3 levels minimum. True Necromancer requires you playing as a necromancer, giving up a further 2 levels of progression for each of your classes, and to play as a non-good character.

There are a few ways to get Trackless Step. Wildrunner, as bean illus pointed out, Scout 3 if you wanted to delay casting progression even further, Holt Warden 3 if you wanted an early imbalance in favor of Divine casting, or just plain old Druid 3. Druids still make great theurges.

As you say, AH does not get both a companion and a familiar, but they keep their companion and give it all the bonuses their familiar would have had. And AH levels stack for both companion and familiar bonuses.

That said, taking something as written (looking at you versatile spellcaster and heighten spell) isn't always the best rule. Especially when looking at the poorly exampled dual progression classes in epic levels. I mean, would you take dual progression into epic levels if all dual epic progressions were alternating instead of parallel?

No, no I would not. I'd just take a bunch of other casting prestige classes instead and get more class features instead.

[bean illus]

Druid 5/ wizard 1/ mt 4/ arcane hierophant 10?

15th level wildshape
15th level companion familiar
8th level wizard spells, CL 15
9th level druid spells, CL 19