The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dungeon Master's Guide, page 278
    "...
    Big monsters typically wield oversized weapons that deal extra dice of damage on a hit. Double the weapon dice if the creature is Large, triple the weapon dice if it's Huge, and quadruple the weapon dice if it's Gargantuan. For example, a Huge giant wielding an appropriately sized greataxe deals 3d12 slashing damage (plus its Strength bonus), instead of the normal 1d12.
    ..."
    Things like this make me scratch my head over the design on the enlarge/reduce spell. The 1d4 damage increase I can understand for the purposes of just having a constant power level of the spell, but it does come across as an inconsistency compared to managing creature sizes and damage (which the DM will be seeing far more often).
    I'm generally in favor of having consistent rule sets between monsters and players, as you have less total information to remember.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    IMO it works pretty well to just rewrite Enlarge to make it work like the DMG.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    Things like this make me scratch my head over the design on the enlarge/reduce spell. The 1d4 damage increase I can understand for the purposes of just having a constant power level of the spell, but it does come across as an inconsistency compared to managing creature sizes and damage (which the DM will be seeing far more often).
    I'm generally in favor of having consistent rule sets between monsters and players, as you have less total information to remember.
    I mean, I can see it thematically. Oversized weapons are (for a given value) designed for their size. An Enlarged weapon is just a regular weapon scaled up, and thus isn't as effective.
    Last edited by Yunru; 2019-10-22 at 06:20 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    I mean, I can see it thematically. Oversized weapons are (for a given value) designed for their size. An Enlarged weapon is just a regular weapon scaled up, and thus isn't as effective.
    In a real world setting, I'd be somewhat inclined to agree. But game-wise, there's a degree of mechanics in play where things are simplified for the sake of gameplay in where it would make more sense to treat creatures in the same size category by the same rules.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Oof, I came into this thread missing the key component of "let's crowdsource some" if we were lacking in mechanics.

    I will agree, Enlarge is pretty weak as-is. I think it is because it is conjoined to its twin, Reduce. Enlarge and Reduce have the same rules, in reverse. So instead of just removing a weapon's damage die, like a greataxe, from 1d12+STR to... just STR? And what would happen to a great sword? 1d6+STR, or also just STR? So they just removed 1d4 as a penalty. Small creatures like Goblins and Gnomes can use weapons just fine. If reduce didn't decrease damage, it would barely even be a debuff, but if it reduced so much damage for going from Medium -->Small, then why even have Small adventurers? So then Enlarge was written the other way: just add 1d4.

    I would agree with the damage dice multiplying, but how would it affect shrinking as well? Because although Small is smaller than Normal, then there is Tiny. But as it stands with Reduce, a strong Gnome using a longsword as a "greatsword" doing 1d10+STR being weakened so much would be pretty sad.

    Honestly, the fact that Medium to Small carries virtually no penalties other than "no heavy weapons" feels weird.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Protolisk View Post
    Honestly, the fact that Medium to Small carries virtually no penalties other than "no heavy weapons" feels weird.
    Especially when you consider the penalty for a medium PC using a large weapon is "just" disadvantage, no weapon restrictions.

    (As an aside, it's quite fun to play a Barbarian waving around this too-large-to-properly-use greataxe, determined to make the most of it because it's the family weapon (there was some giant blood on your mother's side).)
    Last edited by Yunru; 2019-10-22 at 06:49 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Well mechanically, what you can do in a typical brothel is pretty limited at Size Huge.

    Unless you are among a Giant population then go to town!

    Unfortunately you'll only be able to last a minute. But that might be plenty of time for some

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlenSmash! View Post
    Well mechanically, what you can do in a typical brothel is pretty limited at Size Huge.

    Unless you are among a Giant population then go to town!

    Unfortunately you'll only be able to last a minute. But that might be plenty of time for some
    I'm pretty sure even without Enlarge, the size differences open enough opportunities to be it's own sub-genre.
    ...
    A friend told me so.
    >_>
    <_<
    Last edited by Yunru; 2019-10-22 at 06:43 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlenSmash! View Post
    Well mechanically, what you can do in a typical brothel is pretty limited at Size Huge.

    Unless you are among a Giant population then go to town!

    Unfortunately you'll only be able to last a minute. But that might be plenty of time for some
    Prior conceptions about you reaffirmed

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    What can I say? I find the time honored tradition of Harlot Tables to still be inspiring (for a laugh anyway)

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Especially when you consider the penalty for a medium PC using a large weapon is "just" disadvantage, no weapon restrictions.
    ...Or a Small PC using a Large, heavy weapon... while blindfolded, poisoned, and restrained

    Quote Originally Posted by Protolisk View Post
    Oof, I came into this thread missing the key component of "let's crowdsource some" if we were lacking in mechanics.

    I will agree, Enlarge is pretty weak as-is. I think it is because it is conjoined to its twin, Reduce. Enlarge and Reduce have the same rules, in reverse. So instead of just removing a weapon's damage die, like a greataxe, from 1d12+STR to... just STR? And what would happen to a great sword? 1d6+STR, or also just STR? So they just removed 1d4 as a penalty. Small creatures like Goblins and Gnomes can use weapons just fine. If reduce didn't decrease damage, it would barely even be a debuff, but if it reduced so much damage for going from Medium -->Small, then why even have Small adventurers? So then Enlarge was written the other way: just add 1d4.

    I would agree with the damage dice multiplying, but how would it affect shrinking as well? Because although Small is smaller than Normal, then there is Tiny. But as it stands with Reduce, a strong Gnome using a longsword as a "greatsword" doing 1d10+STR being weakened so much would be pretty sad.
    Or follow the AD&D approach and make Reduce make you much, much smaller than only half-sized. If Reduce shrank you to 10% of your normal height you could indeed justify setting any damage dice to d1.

    Honestly, the fact that Medium to Small carries virtually no penalties other than "no heavy weapons" feels weird.
    Yeah, Small is a very strange size category which arguably should not exist. Instead we have a situation where Small creatures can squeeze into spaces sized for Tiny creatures (two and a half feet square on a side) at the cost of disadvantage on their attacks/various ability checks/etc., whereas Medium creatures can squeeze into spaces sized for Small creatures at the cost of disadvantage... but spaces designed for Small creatures are the same size as spaces designed for Medium creatures!
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-10-22 at 07:48 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    On the subject of a Huge character not having a Huge weapon:

    The abilities in question state that your equipment grows with you.

    Therefore..... You have a Huge Greatsword, do you not?

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    On the subject of a Huge character not having a Huge weapon:

    The abilities in question state that your equipment grows with you.

    Therefore..... You have a Huge Greatsword, do you not?
    In AL, no not really.
    In a home game? Ask your DM nicely to rule enlarge using those DMG monster size rules. I know I'll likely add this spell to the list of things to houserule in my DM folder.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlenSmash! View Post
    Unfortunately you'll only be able to last a minute. But that might be plenty of time for some
    WAIT, I got one!

    Spoiler: How to tell what the bard chose for "Magical Secrets"...
    Show

    Spoiler: Source: Don't worry, it's not smut
    Show
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzHrjOMfHPY
    Last edited by Zhorn; 2019-10-23 at 08:30 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    On the subject of a Huge character not having a Huge weapon:

    The abilities in question state that your equipment grows with you.

    Therefore..... You have a Huge Greatsword, do you not?
    By the rules no.

    Your damage increases by 1d6 per attack with Giant Might (though this increases with further levels in Rune Knight) and 1d4 per attack from Enlarge.

    This is one example of PCs and NPCs working differently, or maybe just a case of Specific beats General.

    Now if the character is Huge size and picks up a Huge weapon from say a Frost Giant, I'd rule as the DM that they can use the NPC weapons damage dice, but without the 1d6 and 1d4 from the PCs abilities.
    Last edited by GlenSmash!; 2019-10-23 at 11:09 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    The wird thing is that Huge isn't double the linear size of Large, it's only +50%. You go from 10' x 10' to 15' x 15'. Yet Enlarge specifies both that you double in linear dimension (so you should be 20' x 20', Gargantuan) and that you only go up one size category (Large -> Huge).

    I have no explanation here except that Enlarge wasn't written very carefully.
    Going from 10 x 10 to 15 x 15 is a 125% increase in surface area, not a 50%.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoric View Post
    Going from 10 x 10 to 15 x 15 is a 125% increase in surface area, not a 50%.
    I said "linear size", not "surface area." The point is that you're now 20' x 20' and should be Gargantuan, yet somehow you're still only Huge.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Im going to be honest with you guys - the Rune Knight is giving me 3.5 PTSD flashbacks.

    Power creep, complicated calculations, vague rules, stacking abilities - the rune knight is one ability/feat away from the hulking hurler.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nefariis View Post
    Im going to be honest with you guys - the Rune Knight is giving me 3.5 PTSD flashbacks.

    Power creep, complicated calculations, vague rules, stacking abilities - the rune knight is one ability/feat away from the hulking hurler.
    I'm one of the ones who thinks the power is in line with the EK, long term anyway.

    But it definitely needs some refinement (like most UA does) to escape these weird combinations.

    Anyway I should be testing out a Goliath Rune Knight pretty soon. No double Enlarge shenanigans though.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlenSmash! View Post
    I'm one of the ones who thinks the power is in line with the EK, long term anyway.
    ...maybe. EK is stronger defensively in terms of AC and mobility, but Rune Knight is much stronger offensively.

    By 10th level, you can be adding +d6+d8 (7) to every attack as a 1-minute no-concentration bonus action, twice per long rest, and also increasing your Strength to 22 (10 minute no-concentration bonus action, 1/short rest) and also gaining Rage-level resistance 1/short rest (resistance to magical and nonmagical piercing/bludgeoning/slashing damage for 1 minute, but with no limits on concentration) AND imposing disadvantage on enemy attack rolls or saving throws (or granting advantage to self).

    Now let's look at the long term effects. I love EKs, don't get me wrong, but the closer I look at Rune Knight the more it looks like a completely different level of power. There's really nothing an EK 16 can do that a Champion 11/Diviner 5 couldn't do, but Rune Knight 11/Diviner 5 would bring a whole new level of utility to the table that the EK frankly couldn't match. At 20th level, an ideal EK could be attacking five times per round (Sharpshooter + CE) at +9 to hit (assuming +1 magic hand crossbow) for d6+16 damage per hit, average 59.38 DPR against AC 18, or 106.88 on an Action Surge. The hypothetical equivalent Rune Knight 11/Diviner 9 will be attacking 4 times at +9 to hit (against assuming +1 magic hand crossbow) for 2d6+d8+16 damage per hit, average 68.30 DPR against AC 18, 119.52 on an Action Surge. He can boost that even further with the Storm Giant rune for advantage.

    They have similar defenses (wizard spell list = Shield, Blur, etc.) and the Rune Knight loses one crossbow attack activating Giant Form, and Giant Form can't be online in every fight, but then again the EK doesn't have no-concentration resistance to physical damage or 5th level spells like Wall of Force. Both of them can do things like Action Surge two Fireballs in one round. The EK has more Action Surges with which to do this, but the Rune Knight/Diviner has more spell slots with which to do this, and can also couple it with a bonus action rune at the same time.

    Oh, and that doesn't even account for other random bonuses the Rune Knight gets, like Darkvision, immunity to surprise, and ability to effectively Cutting Words for allies an unlimited number of times (when an ally within 60' is hit, add +1+INT to ally's AC as a reaction, possibly negating the hit).

    Overall I'd have to say the Rune Knight is quite a bit more powerful than the EK, not least because of all the bonus action no-concentration 1/short rest runes that he's getting, and how well that synergizes with multiclassing while evading restrictions on spells (like getting to cast two spells and activate a bonus action rune all in one round).
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-10-23 at 01:16 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Might not work. I think the Rune Knight ability states if you aren't already large, you become large. Dunno if that would be a consistent rule for the duration, but I think it was worded that way to prevent doubling up like that.

    Probably works RAW, but the way they phrased it makes me think it was intended to not stack with enlarge.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeRoxTheBoat View Post
    Might not work. I think the Rune Knight ability states if you aren't already large, you become large. Dunno if that would be a consistent rule for the duration, but I think it was worded that way to prevent doubling up like that.

    Probably works RAW, but the way they phrased it makes me think it was intended to not stack with enlarge.
    Wouldn't that be solved by using giant might first to become large from medium and then enlarge to become huge from large?

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Any mechanical changes for being a Huge character?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    ...maybe. EK is stronger defensively in terms of AC and mobility, but Rune Knight is much stronger offensively.

    By 10th level, you can be adding +d6+d8 (7) to every attack as a 1-minute no-concentration bonus action, twice per long rest, and also increasing your Strength to 22 (10 minute no-concentration bonus action, 1/short rest) and also gaining Rage-level resistance 1/short rest (resistance to magical and nonmagical piercing/bludgeoning/slashing damage for 1 minute, but with no limits on concentration) AND imposing disadvantage on enemy attack rolls or saving throws (or granting advantage to self).

    Now let's look at the long term effects. I love EKs, don't get me wrong, but the closer I look at Rune Knight the more it looks like a completely different level of power. There's really nothing an EK 16 can do that a Champion 11/Diviner 5 couldn't do, but Rune Knight 11/Diviner 5 would bring a whole new level of utility to the table that the EK frankly couldn't match. At 20th level, an ideal EK could be attacking five times per round (Sharpshooter + CE) at +9 to hit (assuming +1 magic hand crossbow) for d6+16 damage per hit, average 59.38 DPR against AC 18, or 106.88 on an Action Surge. The hypothetical equivalent Rune Knight 11/Diviner 9 will be attacking 4 times at +9 to hit (against assuming +1 magic hand crossbow) for 2d6+d8+16 damage per hit, average 68.30 DPR against AC 18, 119.52 on an Action Surge. He can boost that even further with the Storm Giant rune for advantage.

    They have similar defenses (wizard spell list = Shield, Blur, etc.) and the Rune Knight loses one crossbow attack activating Giant Form, and Giant Form can't be online in every fight, but then again the EK doesn't have no-concentration resistance to physical damage or 5th level spells like Wall of Force. Both of them can do things like Action Surge two Fireballs in one round. The EK has more Action Surges with which to do this, but the Rune Knight/Diviner has more spell slots with which to do this, and can also couple it with a bonus action rune at the same time.

    Oh, and that doesn't even account for other random bonuses the Rune Knight gets, like Darkvision, immunity to surprise, and ability to effectively Cutting Words for allies an unlimited number of times (when an ally within 60' is hit, add +1+INT to ally's AC as a reaction, possibly negating the hit).

    Overall I'd have to say the Rune Knight is quite a bit more powerful than the EK, not least because of all the bonus action no-concentration 1/short rest runes that he's getting, and how well that synergizes with multiclassing while evading restrictions on spells (like getting to cast two spells and activate a bonus action rune all in one round).
    Yeah there is some silly stuff there. is the survey for this UA up yet?

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