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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Fighter subclass: Vanguard

    A Vanguard rushes in the battlefield first to reach the enemy formations. Every Vanguard faces death when charging the enemy, arrows and compact lines of spears rarely spare anyone.

    Momentum Swing
    From 3rd level after choosing this martial archetype, if you make a melee attack immediately after moving at least 15 feet in a straight line, you can make that attack deal extra damage equal to half your fighter level, rounded up.

    Battle Savant
    Every battle taught you more than just how to swing your weapon around. From 7th level you gain advantage on every Intelligence (History) check related to the origin of
    banners and flags, battle tactics and manufacture of arms and armors.

    Head of the Charge
    A frontliner can't call herself one if she isn't able to reach the enemy quickly. From 10th level increase your movement speed by 10 feet and you can add your proficiency bonus to Initiative rolls.

    Third Wind
    From 15th level you can use Second Wind twice before rest. When you use Second Wind you can also end one of the following conditions afflicting you: blinded, deafened, paralysed, poisoned, or stunned.


    Heroic Surge
    From 18th level when you use Action Surge instead of taking one additional action you can take an additional turn immediately after this one. You can't use Action Surge during that turn.

    The capstone might need some help.
    Spoiler: Older Versions
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    Spoiler: Vanguard 0.6.4
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    A Vanguard uses strength to overwhelm the enemy. A Vanguard is specialized in breaking enemy formations and is usually leading the charge on the battlefield.


    Projection
    Starting at 3rd level you can Shove a creature as a Bonus Action. You can only use the Push option when Shoving using this feature. Also, you can push the creature up to half your speed instead of 5 feet but if you do so you also have to move with it.

    Wall Splat
    From 3rd level if a creature's Shove movement is interrupted by a creature or another solid object at least his size or larger, the next attack made against that creature before the beginning of your next turn has advantage.


    Heavy Lifter
    Your role in the battlefield requires you to be in peak form, and you are. At 7th level you gain proficiency in the Athletics skill. If you are already proficient in it your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check that uses Athletics.


    Trample
    From 10th level after a Shove a creature it is pushed an addition 5 feet in any direction and is knocked prone. You can use this feature only if you moved toward that creature for at least 15 feet in a straight line.


    Head of the Charge
    A frontliner can't call herself one if she isn't able to reach the enemy quickly. From 10th level increase your movement speed by 10 feet and you can add your proficiency bonus to Initiative rolls.


    Unstoppable
    A Vanguard at this point is able to move nearly anything that dares to block her path. From 15th level you are considered one size larger when performing a Shove.


    Knockback
    From 18th level your strikes are so powerful that some enemies can't even stand their ground. Whenever you hit a creature with a melee attack you can also Shove them.


    Spoiler: Vanguard (0.6.2)
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    Vanguard's Techniques
    From 3rd level you gain the following benefits:

    •Projection: you can use your bonus action to shove a creature. You can only use the Push option when you use this feature. Also you can follow the creature movement to keep pushing it in the same direction up to half your speed.
    •Wall Splat: if a creature's Shove movement is interrupted by a wall, or another solid object at least one size larger than the creature, the next attack made against that creature before the beginning of your next turn has advantage.



    Heavy Lifter
    Your role in the battlefield requires you to be in peak form, and you make sure that you are.

    At 7th level you get proficiency in the Athletic skill, if you are already proficient in it your proficiency bonus is doubled. Also if you are making an Athletic check opposed by a creature of size smaller than yours you get advantage on the check.


    Advanced Vanguard's Techniques
    From 10th level you gain the following benefits:

    •Trample: when you move at least 15 feet straight towards a creature and then you Shove it, if you succeed you can push it and additional 5 feet in any direction and it falls prone.
    •Careful Charge: if you take the Dash action all Opportunity Attacks made against you this turn have disadvantage.
    •Stay Behind: you offer half cover to allied creatures of size equal or smaller than yours.

    Lv 15
    Head of the Charge
    A frontline can't call himself one if she isn't able to reach the enemy lines quickly.

    From 15th level increase your movement speed by 10 feet and you can ignore difficult terrain.


    Unstoppable
    A Vanguard at this point is able to move nearly anything that dares to block her path.

    You are considered one size larger when performing a Shove and to gain advantage from Heavy Lifter.





    0.6.2
    Changed projection so it's easier to use and to read.

    0.6.1
    Name changed to Vanguard from Linecracker.

    Removed Never Unarmed feature.
    Spoiler: 0.5
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    Lv 3:
    Board Techniques:
    A shield in your hands is so much more than a defensive tool.

    When you are wielding a shield you get the following benefits:
    •Shield Projection:
    After you hit a creature with the Attack Action you can use your bonus action to make an athletic check opposed by that creature's athletic/acrobatic check, his choice. If you win you can move up to half your speed and push the opponent in the same direction if his size is up to one size larger than you.
    •Wall Splat:
    If a creature's Shove or Shield Projection movement is interrupted by a wall, or another solid object at least one size larger than the creature, the next attack made against that creature before the beginning of your next turn has advantage.
    •Sword and Board Combat: you can use your shield as a weapon and you have proficiency in it. It deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage and Str is his for attack rolls and damage rolls. A magical shield with a +1/2/3 magic bonus to AC also adds that bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls made while using it.

    Lv 7
    Heavy Lifter:
    Your role in the battlefield requires you to be in peak form, and you make sure that you are.

    You get proficiency in the athletic skill, if you are already proficient in it your proficiency bonus is doubled. Also if you are making an athletic check opposed by a creature of size smaller than yours you get advantage on the check.

    Lv 10
    Advanced Board Techniques:
    The training never ends, your combat techniques become even more effective.

    •Advanced Shield Projection:
    You can move up to your speed instead of half when performing a Shield Projection. Opportunity Attacks provoked by this movement have disadvantage.
    •Advanced Wall Splat:
    After you Wall Splat a creature that creature make a Con save (DC 8+Prof bonus+Str mod.) on a fail all attacks against it have advantage untill the beginning of your next turn, on a success it offers advantage only on the next attack made against it until the beginning of your next turn.
    •Advanced Sword and Board Combat:
    You can choose a second option from your Fighting Style class feature chosen between: Defense, Dueling and Protection.

    Lv 15
    Perfect Stance:
    While you learned to use your shield for other than defense it doesn't means that you forgot how to block blows properly. You made an art out of it.

    If you are wielding your shield you are considered in half-cover against against creatures that you can see.

    Lv 18
    Unstoppable:
    A linecracker at this point is able to move nearly anything that dares to block his path.

    You are considered one size larger when performing a Shove or Shield Projection, and to gain advantage from Heavy Lifter.

    Last edited by Trandir; 2019-12-05 at 04:36 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Fighter subclasses: Linecracker

    Ok I put this subclass in his own thread

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    Default Re: Fighter subclasses: Linecracker

    I don't think your damage bonus works here. First, shields can already be used as improvised weapons, so you technically aren't increasing the damage and aren't giving proficiency with attacks made using a shield. I would specify you add your proficiency bonus to attack rolls using a shield, in addition to one of the following:
    • A 1d8 damage die, thereby freeing up the PC's other hand
    • A 1d6 damage die and the light property to give the benefits of both duel wielding and sword and board.


    You should probably also specify whether Perfect Stance stacks with a shield's AC bonus.

    This could also use a ribbon or two, but otherwise this looks really flavorful.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Fighter subclasses: Linecracker

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I don't think your damage bonus works here. First, shields can already be used as improvised weapons, so you technically aren't increasing the damage and aren't giving proficiency with attacks made using a shield. I would specify you add your proficiency bonus to attack rolls using a shield, in addition to one of the following:
    • A 1d8 damage die, thereby freeing up the PC's other hand
    • A 1d6 damage die and the light property to give the benefits of both duel wielding and sword and board.


    You should probably also specify whether Perfect Stance stacks with a shield's AC bonus.

    This could also use a ribbon or two, but otherwise this looks really flavorful.
    Oh yes I forgot to add that you are proficient with shield attacks, my bad. The damage should stay 1d4 or at most 1d6, that feature isn't meant to increase your DPR but to give a flavorful alternative to unarmed strikes. Your main hand weapon should do the damage and the shield should to the pushing.

    Why is that so? If you are in 1/2 cover against a creature you gain +2 AC against their attacks and +2 on Dex saving throws made against their abilities. Should it need more explanations?

    Yep I know that this subclass coul use some work so I am trying to do exactly that asking in the homebrew section.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Fighter subclasses: Linecracker

    Is this subclass underpowered compared to the other martial arcetypes?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Fighter subclasses: Linecracker

    This is really nice but if your wanting to be the focus of wasting an enemy attack then your going to need a taunt or a similar effect to keep them focused on you. Also upgrading your shields damage to a d6 at level 3 and a d8 at level 18 as well isn’t bad either, it doesn’t max out dps but can still contribute at later levels.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Fighter subclasses: Linecracker

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogrillian View Post
    This is really nice but if your wanting to be the focus of wasting an enemy attack then your going to need a taunt or a similar effect to keep them focused on you. Also upgrading your shields damage to a d6 at level 3 and a d8 at level 18 as well isn’t bad either, it doesn’t max out dps but can still contribute at later levels.
    Well the subclass just wants to be able to move enemies like sacks of potatoes rather than tank.

    Also no the first sword and board combat feature isn't meant to increase DPR but rather offering an alternative in weird cases (much like the 1d4 natural attack of some races)

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    sandmote's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fighter subclasses: Linecracker

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    just wants to be able to move enemies like sacks of potatoes
    I think that's the problem with being able to discuss this subclass. There's already the shove, so "move enemies," is maybe worth a feat. As a subclass, this doesn't get increased damage, or control, or really much utility. Normally I hold off on commenting if my only response boils down to "it bad," but I really don't see a way to bring this subclass up to the published stuff without expanding the scope of what it is meant to be capable of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    an alternative in weird cases (much like the 1d4 natural attack of some races)
    Reorder all the stuff a feature gives the PC from most significant to least significant. It's the most significant ones that decide what concepts your subclass going for, so you want to color the reader's idea of the subclass by putting them first. In this case, "you add proficiency when attacking with shields," looks like the main idea and the shoving is a supplement for it.

    And given you want the emphasis on attack rolls other than attacks, I still think you should let the subclass fight with a shield in one hand and the other hand free without a damage penalty.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Breccia's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fighter subclasses: Linecracker

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Is this subclass underpowered compared to the other martial arcetypes?
    Tough question.

    Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Heavy Lifter:

    if you are making an athletic check opposed by a creature of size smaller than yours you get advantage on the check.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Unstoppable:
    You are considered one size larger when performing a Shove or Shield Projection, and to gain advantage from Heavy Lifter.
    This combo of powers, to me, reads like "you are the best Grappler alive". Re-read the Grappler Feat to see how ridiculously dangerous this will be. And don't forget that a grappler can drag a grapplee over the battlefield, which depending on context can be as simple as "the enemy rogue is no longer flanking anyone" to dangerous as "I thought you might want a closer look at this spiked pit".

    By contrast, there's a fair number of creatures who will just ignore it -- anything Huge, incorporeal, or in the ooze family -- but overusing those will make the player just frustrated, even though it's entirely their fault for making a one-trick pony.

    "Overpowered" and "underpowered" are based entirely on potential. I get the feeling 90+% 5E D&D fights never involve grappling, and of the rest, 90+% are the monsters grappling as free actions. I could be Shield Projecting here, but I just don't think PCs grapple all that often -- even though this combo would make them ridiculously dangerous if they did.

    As an abstract, general concept, battlefield control is powerful, and these guys are good at it. The difficulty is balancing it, which yes, by asking I know you're trying to do. Which is better, +1d6 damage or moving someone 5 feet? Depends how close he is to the edge of the lava, doesn't it?

    So to answer your own question, you're going to have to consider the Linecracker/Grappler combo, because I promise anyone who takes this class will take that feat. Ask yourself "which of the last five, ten, fifty encounters I've designed would trivialize that combo?" followed by "and which would be completely trivialized by that combo?" There's no specific cutoff, but the higher the first percent the more frustration the archetype generates, and the higher the second the more dangerous the archetype is. And no, they don't cancel each other out.

    No, I don't think it's underpowered. Players might, but it's been my experience that players focus on raw damage a lot. If anything, I think they have potential to make a lot of fights far easier for the party than you probably intend.

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Fighter subclasses: Linecracker

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I think that's the problem with being able to discuss this subclass. There's already the shove, so "move enemies," is maybe worth a feat. As a subclass, this doesn't get increased damage, or control, or really much utility. Normally I hold off on commenting if my only response boils down to "it bad," but I really don't see a way to bring this subclass up to the published stuff without expanding the scope of what it is meant to be capable of.

    Reorder all the stuff a feature gives the PC from most significant to least significant. It's the most significant ones that decide what concepts your subclass going for, so you want to color the reader's idea of the subclass by putting them first. In this case, "you add proficiency when attacking with shields," looks like the main idea and the shoving is a supplement for it.

    And given you want the emphasis on attack rolls other than attacks, I still think you should let the subclass fight with a shield in one hand and the other hand free without a damage penalty.
    Shield Projection move them a little more than your usual 5ft.

    Ok that's a fair point I'll rearrange that.

    Ok let's just assume that the Sword and Board combat damage die for the shield becomes 1d8. What changes if your main hand has both the shield and weapon and leaves a free hand?
    Also what kind of warrior would go to the battlefield with only his shield?

    Quote Originally Posted by Breccia View Post
    Tough question.

    Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I don't think so.


    This combo of powers, to me, reads like "you are the best Grappler alive". Re-read the Grappler Feat to see how ridiculously dangerous this will be. And don't forget that a grappler can drag a grapplee over the battlefield, which depending on context can be as simple as "the enemy rogue is no longer flanking anyone" to dangerous as "I thought you might want a closer look at this spiked pit".

    By contrast, there's a fair number of creatures who will just ignore it -- anything Huge, incorporeal, or in the ooze family -- but overusing those will make the player just frustrated, even though it's entirely their fault for making a one-trick pony.

    "Overpowered" and "underpowered" are based entirely on potential. I get the feeling 90+% 5E D&D fights never involve grappling, and of the rest, 90+% are the monsters grappling as free actions. I could be Shield Projecting here, but I just don't think PCs grapple all that often -- even though this combo would make them ridiculously dangerous if they did.

    As an abstract, general concept, battlefield control is powerful, and these guys are good at it. The difficulty is balancing it, which yes, by asking I know you're trying to do. Which is better, +1d6 damage or moving someone 5 feet? Depends how close he is to the edge of the lava, doesn't it?

    So to answer your own question, you're going to have to consider the Linecracker/Grappler combo, because I promise anyone who takes this class will take that feat. Ask yourself "which of the last five, ten, fifty encounters I've designed would trivialize that combo?" followed by "and which would be completely trivialized by that combo?" There's no specific cutoff, but the higher the first percent the more frustration the archetype generates, and the higher the second the more dangerous the archetype is. And no, they don't cancel each other out.

    No, I don't think it's underpowered. Players might, but it's been my experience that players focus on raw damage a lot. If anything, I think they have potential to make a lot of fights far easier for the party than you probably intend.

    Eeeeeee not exactly. With Heavy Lifter you get expertise in athletic checks and advantage against small creatures (without external help), and medium from lv 18. So you are an ok grappler. But probably an eldrich knight with prodigy can do this even better with enlarge but no one talks about that so I guess it's fine.
    If you meant that Shield Projection is grapple without the grapple, then yes you're right half the subclass is about that. But then I don't see why you mentioned the Grappler feat.

    A different problem I've seen with this class is that you can take Tavern Brawler to emulate Shield Projection and Sword and Board Combat. Half movement with a grappled creature, same chack to do so, the shield gets proficiency bonus and can trigger the grapple with the bonus action.
    You still have Wall Splat, and everything from lv 10+ unique but it's worth pointing out.

    Sidenote: I am not the DM but a player and I will play this class (today) and I want it to be fun, balanced, and flavorful if possible.

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Fighter subclasses: Linecracker

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Shield Projection move them a little more than your usual 5ft.
    That's where the bonus being a feat comes in. Something like:

    Shieldcracker
    Prerequisite: 13 strength
    You have trained not only to use a shield for defense, but to attack and maneuver enemies as well. You gain the following benefits:

    • You add your proficiency modifier to attack rolls using a shield, which deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage when you use them in this manner. Magic shields gain a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to the shield's bonus to AC (other than the shield's normal bonus to AC).
    • When you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can attempt to shove the target as a bonus action.
    • When you are holding a shield and shove a creature no more than one size larger than yourself, you can move yourself and the target in a line before applying the effects of the shove. This movement must be in the direction of the target, and no more than half your movement speed.

    That gets you the basic feel, I think, and doesn't stop you from getting the benefits of another subclass. So, you know, more utility/flexibility and power to justify a full subclass. Or even give shields the Versatile(1d10) property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Ok let's just assume that the Sword and Board combat damage die for the shield becomes 1d8. What changes if your main hand has both the shield and weapon and leaves a free hand?
    Also what kind of warrior would go to the battlefield with only his shield?
    Presumably, a warrior trained in cracking lines would prefer a shield and a free hand for grappling over a second weapon. It's also useful for gish. Basically, instead of more raw power, it would give more flexibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Eeeeeee not exactly. With Heavy Lifter you get expertise in athletic checks and advantage against small creatures (without external help), and medium from lv 18. So you are an ok grappler. But probably an eldrich knight with prodigy can do this even better with enlarge but no one talks about that so I guess it's fine.
    If you meant that Shield Projection is grapple without the grapple, then yes you're right half the subclass is about that. But then I don't see why you mentioned the Grappler feat.

    A different problem I've seen with this class is that you can take Tavern Brawler to emulate Shield Projection and Sword and Board Combat. Half movement with a grappled creature, same chack to do so, the shield gets proficiency bonus and can trigger the grapple with the bonus action.
    You still have Wall Splat, and everything from lv 10+ unique but it's worth pointing out.

    Sidenote: I am not the DM but a player and I will play this class (today) and I want it to be fun, balanced, and flavorful if possible.
    You don't necessarily need to make the subclass a good grappler, but I think the scope is a little small and grappling bonuses are a natural extension of manipulating where your enemies are.

    A ribbon that might work at 3rd level:
    Social Shielding Your training with mixed offense and defense extends to aiding those around you. When a creature makes one of the following contested checks, you can use your reaction to grant it advantage on the roll as you distract, point out, or reinforce whatever it is attempting.

    • An Athletics checks contested by another creature's own Athletics check.
    • A Sleight of Hand check contested by another creature's perception.
    • A Perception check contested by the Stealth check of a creature you can see.
    • A Stealth check contested by another creature's Perception check.
    • An Intimidation check contested by another creature's Insight check.
    • An Insight check contested by another creature's Intimidation check.
    Last edited by sandmote; 2019-11-08 at 03:19 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Fighter subclass: Linecracker

    Well this is the first major rework for the subclass.

    Dropped the shield theme and fully embraced the frontliner one.

    As such most features have been reworked and/or changed. Now you can be a TWF or a GWF and still play this subclass.


    I am also considering to make the Techniques a maneuver-like feature so you can choose a couple at 3rd and 10th level to obtain.


    Any advice or feedback?

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    Default Re: Fighter subclass: Linecracker

    Stay Behind fits well, making the 10th level bonus is a lot better. The subclass could definitely use a combat bonus. Maybe deal 1d8 bludgeoning when shoving? That might fit better than keeping part of the shield bonus.
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Fighter subclass: Linecracker

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Stay Behind fits well, making the 10th level bonus is a lot better. The subclass could definitely use a combat bonus. Maybe deal 1d8 bludgeoning when shoving? That might fit better than keeping part of the shield bonus.
    If with combat bonus you mean a damage boost I don't think it really needs it. You already get the usual fighter extra attacks and bucket of feats to take care of that. The extra die with shove is unecessary. You already improve the general damage with better posotioning, making opponents prone, forcing movement ecc...
    Also what do you mean with "part of the shield bonus"?

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Fighter subclass: Vanguard

    Well got yet another rework. How is it now?

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