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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefBigFeather View Post
    The problem I see with rolling is that rolling is almost always mechanically stronger then point buy.
    That's not a problem. The players are more important than the game. (That's a PoV that I have always found to work: the players are more important than the game. I realize that there are other points of view).
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Zevox's Avatar

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    If someone comes in with a concept, fully agreed. I have a minor quibble in that nobody should come in with a character sight unseen - you really want a session zero to minimize the chance of things like multiple characters playing the same basic archetype or players coming in with characters who buck main campaign themes - but once the basics are hammered out the finer details should be under the player's control.

    Sometimes, though, players don't know what they want to play. And some players actively want to challenge themselves by taking a random assortment of things and trying to make a good story out of the pieces. It isn't my cup of tea, but at least the "surprise me" types make sense.
    Oh sure, you always work with the DM when making a character, and coordinate with the other players about party makeup if there's any concerns about that. I suppose I just kind of take that as a given.

    And yeah, as I mentioned in my last post I could see allowing a player who specifically wanted to make their character that way to do so. It's the notion of that being some standard way that a character should be made that I find very problematic.
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    "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by ChiefBigFeather View Post
    The problem I see with rolling is that rolling is almost always mechanically stronger then point buy. If I roll really well, I take a class that can really benefit (e.g. Paladins like really high stats), if I roll poorly, I just play a moon druid. The average stats of rolled stats are higher then point buy too. Lastly, I really dislike leaving character strength and concept viability to random chance. Rolling is something that worked really well in AD&D, a system where character death was frequent and expected and way more severe random things where part of the game and most stories. That edition just worked that way. 5e is very different in that regard, so I definitely prefer point buy here.
    My experience is that rolling most often generates stats pretty close to a standard array. Sometimes you get significantly better or worse, but on average it seems about the same.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    I've always done 5d6, drop the lowest, and you get 1 reroll if the total is less than 10. While this can produce some powerful stats and some broken characters, most characters don't have higher than a +3 in any stat to start out. Those who are lucky are lucky, those who are not, are not. I prefer this method as both DM and player. As a DM, I enjoy seeing my players experiment and put a lot of thought into their characters, and a big part of that is feats. As a Player, I enjoy the same.

    Then again, I'm very much a story based DM, and hand pick players who are the same. For DMs and Players who play the game for the combat and mechanics alone, this method allows some characters to outshine others in a way that can ruin the fun for those less fortunate in their stat rolls.
    "I may be a Hobgoblin, but the real mythical creature I'm playing is an Ethical Billionaire"

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildarm View Post
    I assume the +9 is the total positive modifiers? You could still get +4, +3, +2 with 18,17,15,11,10,10. That's a very strong V-Human stat spread with 18/18/16/11/10/10 and a Bonus Feat at level 1. Or did you mean the +9 was after racials. That would make it a bit more balanced though SAD classes would still be pretty strong.
    Looks as though the conversation moved on while I was out, but the total to modifiers is before racial modifiers; there are enough differences in the modifiers that I wouldn't want to apply the cap *after* racial modifiers. There are some efficiencies to find and exploit, but that's ... something I'm willing to live with. As people suggest things that skew the game past what I'm comfortable with, the system evolves. My own personal preference is for more well-rounded characters; I'd rather have a slightly bonus in four stats than max out two (or even three).

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Oh sure, you always work with the DM when making a character, and coordinate with the other players about party makeup if there's any concerns about that. I suppose I just kind of take that as a given.
    My bigger worry would be two players doing something like want to bring the same sorcadin build, and step on each others toes. That can happen when the DM just says to bring whatever you want.

    Still, there's a reason I called this a minor quibble. I'm pretty sure we agree on the main details, I just think it's important to highlight how much things should be talked out before people start filling out character sheets.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    That's not a problem. The players are more important than the game. (That's a PoV that I have always found to work: the players are more important than the game. I realize that there are other points of view).
    Those are nice sounding but empty words. Making sure that the players all enjoy themselves does require effort from both the table and the devs, otherwise there's a strong risk of someone stepping on someone else's toes. And without Shadowrun-esque hard niche protection where other characters have heavy penalties or are outright barred from trying to access someone else's shtick, encouraging players to have built in weak points helps encourage players to pass around the spotlight to play up everyone's individual strengths.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Mechanically stronger doesn't always mean no weak point. But in the case of rolling, I've seen it come close. Arrays like 17/16/15/14/14/12. I made that one up just now but its representative. Conversely, and again made up but representative, I've seen things like 13/12/11/9/9/6. Playable but a big challenge. And that's with fairly limited use of rolling, i.e. i only use it in one shots (which to me means a handful of sessions).

    I don't think they could in fairness to D&D have gotten rid of dice rolling as one of the two main options. And given they wanted to make the game with a built in 'Basic' rule set, it's hardly surprising the other default was standard array. With Point Buy variant being for more experienced tables / official play.

    I mean, I totally understand the relative importance of ability scores in the post-3e D&D world, and yet I still wax nostalgic about rolling and playing something determined randomly by your rolls. But the reality is being down 2 pts below average on your 2 to 3 highest scores is a big deal. And some combinations are not anything someone would normally do. For example bery high Str but very low Con is likely to end up with someone rolling up a soon to be dead Fighter.

    Edit: Out of curiosity, I rolled up a 6 person party using 4d6d1. It was wildly variable. Pretty sure the second would be fairly unhappy if it were an extended campaign.

    14 12 11 10 10 10
    13 10 9 8 8 7
    16 14 13 13 12 10
    14 14 12 11 9 5
    18 17 12 9 8 6
    15 13 10 9 9 6

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    HalflingRangerGuy

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Always point buy.

    If I want randomness: roll a few d6, every 1 is +1 Str, ..., every 6 is +1 Cha.
    So {6, 3, 5} is +1 Cha, +1 Con, +1 Wis.
    Trust but verify. There's usually a reason why I believe you can't do something.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    I'm a little curious why people give out high stats instead of high levels when they want high powered campaigns. The stats are nice, especially in 5e where every stat is a save now. It's just that class features are even nicer.
    Probably simply a cultural norm. XP is the reward for gaming well, and thus levels are the rewards you earn (and, for the most part, you want to experience the earning of).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    My experience is that rolling most often generates stats pretty close to a standard array. Sometimes you get significantly better or worse, but on average it seems about the same.
    Statistically (and pre-racial adjustment), 4d6b3 averages to just about 12.25, while point buy is between 11.5 (straight 8s and 15s) and 12.5 (12s and 13s). I think the point, though, was that rolling can be gamed, in that if you roll low you just choose classes where it matters less). Mind you, that's part of the point of rolling -- make do with what you get and figure out how to make it work. That's the point and the challenge is part of the fun (for those who like it; and for those who do not find such things fun, it's really hard to make a case for why you'd want to do it).

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Zombie

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    I'm a little curious why people give out high stats instead of high levels when they want high powered campaigns. The stats are nice, especially in 5e where every stat is a save now. It's just that class features are even nicer.
    Speaking for myself, if I want to do a high power campaign I still want to do the developing heroes thing, just starting with better raw material. Similar to how the ancient myths of heroes I'm most familiar with start with a young and inexperienced person who is better raw material than their friends.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Anymage View Post
    Those are nice sounding but empty words.
    Nope. It's the voice of experience talking.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    OrcBarbarianGirl

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by prabe View Post
    I've seen too much variation in initial starting competency to be entirely happy with any random method, but the point buy system in the PHB is ... boring. So, I worked out a different method for the campaigns I run: Pick your ability scores, any number 3-18; half of them must be odd, the other half must be even; you may not pick any number more than twice. Now, apply racial bonuses; you may not adjust an ability past 18 at level 1.

    EDIT: The total modifiers cannot be greater than +9. The bonus could be anything; I picked +9 because I explicitly wanted competent starting characters.
    So for say a pally half orc you could do 16+2, 10, 17+1, 5, 11, 18? That lets you have a +4 in 3 stats AND not hurt your important saves too much.

    For a SAD caster it's even easier, especially if you pick a class that gets a + to either your casting stat, DEX or CON. IE a Bugbear Wizard. 3+2, 17+1, 18, 18, 11, 11. 3 18s, and you only have to dump strength, which you won't need anyway.

    Of course, this only happens if you have obnoxious minmaxy players.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    I prefer point buy (or array if you're lazy) for balanced characters. Almost everyone who rolls dice seems to add in extra rules to avoid consequences (pick a set from a neighbor, drop lowest, reroll 1's, etc) that leads to stat inflation.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    I've been converted to preferring Point Buy over rolling. I've come to realized my taste now is wanting the guaranteed good enough array to make my character function well. I don't hate dice rolling, but when I felt disappointed the DM said that's what we're using I knew my conversion was complete.

    However, preferring Point Buy does not mean I like how 5E does it. It's a matter of personal taste. I only use it because it's what's available. Absolute forbiddance of an 18 at 1st level combined with every ability score is a save and must choose between ASI or a feat, I find it quite suffocating. Point Buy systems I like are Pathfinder, Pathfinder 2, and 3E if at least 28 pts. Ironically I also like 4E's implementation of it despite not liking the game. It synergizes well with 4E's paradigm of everyone being Dual-Ability Score dependent.
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  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    I've played multiple campaigns where players were given 3 options for stats.
    1) point buy (build precisely what you want)
    2) 4d6 drop 1 6 times, arrange however you like (have some randomness, but probably play the class you were leaning towards)
    3) 5d6 drop 2 in order, no changes (have solid stats, but who knows where the good scores will end up)

    What I found interesting is that every single one of those campaigns had at least 1 player pick each option. The 5d6 resulted in some memorable characters - the monk with an 18 int, the sorc with 14,15,16 on the physical stats, and a 6 wis. But there were always people who didn't want to roll, or wanted the flexibility of picking their stats, and they never seemed to mind that the 5d6 people all ended up with slightly better scores overall, because they had to make do with what they got.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by ChildofLuthic View Post
    So for say a pally half orc you could do 16+2, 10, 17+1, 5, 11, 18? That lets you have a +4 in 3 stats AND not hurt your important saves too much.

    For a SAD caster it's even easier, especially if you pick a class that gets a + to either your casting stat, DEX or CON. IE a Bugbear Wizard. 3+2, 17+1, 18, 18, 11, 11. 3 18s, and you only have to dump strength, which you won't need anyway.

    Of course, this only happens if you have obnoxious minmaxy players.
    That would fit the rules. Of course, there are ways to punish people for tanking a stat that badly, and I'm willing to do so. Since the handout I give the players says the purpose is to allow flexibility, not to encourage relentless optimization, I wouldn't feel bad about dropping INT saves on that paladin and/or putting him in a position where there was thinking involved; nor would I feel bad about dropping STR saves on that wizard and/or putting him in a position where he had to use his physical might to solve a problem. I *might* be kind and ask the player to come up with something mroe well-rounded, especially if everyone else at the table did.

    So far, there hasn't been much pushing of things. I've adjusted things because of players, but I haven't yet had anyone try to optimize the fun out of it, yet.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    I like that 3x3 grid, but running a number of iterations, I think either 1d6+1 for each spot, but no rerolls, or 1d8 and no rerolls brings the totals closer to normal, since each roll is being used for two different stats, a 1 or 2 is particularly harsh.

    One other way of generating stats I haven't seen mentioned, is 1d8+7. It keeps characters in the 8-15 range of PB, but allows for a bit more randomness / dice rolling that people seem to like.

    One option I'd suggest using is comparing the roll totals to a PB spread, and if lower, adjust each stat, in order, by 1 point until you reach 27 points. It's very easy to do with a PB calculator, and keeps unlucky folks from being vastly underpowered. Of course, even if you managed to roll 6 8's and got all 15s, you're not exactly superman/hercules... though if you don't go standard human, I'd look at you funny
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  18. - Top - End - #78
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    I like random point buy, for those "balanced tables" and my relentless ennui.

    Get 27 pts, roll 1d8 -1 as you go down the Ability stats, spending points as determined by the Ability increase of the roll. Be sure to spend all 27 pts.

    i.e. Roll 1d8-1 for STR, get an 8-1=7. Your STR stat will be 8 plus this 7, starting at 15. You spend 9 pts to get STR 15.

    i.e.2. Roll 1d8-1 for STR DEX CON, get a 1-1=0 three times in a row. STR DEX CON will all start at 8s. Since you must spend all your points the rest of INT WIS CHA will all start at 15s.

    Quick and easy random point buy.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Well no one wants to see all the different variants used in the tables apparently. Oh well less wprk for me

    Quote Originally Posted by opaopajr View Post
    I like random point buy, for those "balanced tables" and my relentless ennui.

    Get 27 pts, roll 1d8 -1 as you go down the Ability stats, spending points as determined by the Ability increase of the roll. Be sure to spend all 27 pts.

    i.e. Roll 1d8-1 for STR, get an 8-1=7. Your STR stat will be 8 plus this 7, starting at 15. You spend 9 pts to get STR 15.

    i.e.2. Roll 1d8-1 for STR DEX CON, get a 1-1=0 three times in a row. STR DEX CON will all start at 8s. Since you must spend all your points the rest of INT WIS CHA will all start at 15s.

    Quick and easy random point buy.
    This is intresting but why not 7+1d8? It's litterally the same thing but less confusing.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    Quote Originally Posted by prabe View Post
    That would fit the rules. Of course, there are ways to punish people for tanking a stat that badly, and I'm willing to do so. Since the handout I give the players says the purpose is to allow flexibility, not to encourage relentless optimization, I wouldn't feel bad about dropping INT saves on that paladin and/or putting him in a position where there was thinking involved; nor would I feel bad about dropping STR saves on that wizard and/or putting him in a position where he had to use his physical might to solve a problem. I *might* be kind and ask the player to come up with something mroe well-rounded, especially if everyone else at the table did.

    So far, there hasn't been much pushing of things. I've adjusted things because of players, but I haven't yet had anyone try to optimize the fun out of it, yet.
    Actually, I really don't like being an antogonistic GM.

    If no one else at the table was optimizing so relentlessly, I'd point that out to the player who tanked something to a 5.

    I'd point out that the system I'm using is intended to allow and encourage flexibility and creativity and non-standard class-race pairings, not to enable that degree of optimization.

    I'd mention that my homebrew campaigns tend to include (feature?) entire sessions without any combat, as people do skill things--research, or social interaction, or whatever else. Tanking a score might result in their character having nothing to do in such an instance, and the player being bored, and any blame for that would be on the player.

    If none of the above convinced the player to make something more in keeping with the intent of the system, I'd introduce a new rule along the lines of "You may not have more than three points of ability penalties, and you may not have more than two of those points on any one ability score," and I'd make that ex post facto and instruct the player to make a character that fit that rule as well as the others. A determined player could probably still find an exploit, but at some point it's not a hill worth dying on.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Initial ability scores

    A couple of other ideas that are pretty good.

    Split 25:
    Quote Originally Posted by Glazius (edited a bit for Brevity)
    Split 25.
    1. Roll 4d6 drop lowest three times.
    2. If any of them came up less than 7, treat it as a 7.
    3. Subtract each of those three numbers from 25.
    4. There's your stat array.


    Example 1:
    Roll 15, 14, and 13 {subtract each from 25} so you also have 10, an 11, and a 12.
    Example 2:
    Roll 18, 17, and 16, {subtract each from 25} you also have a 7, an 8, and a 9.

    Notes:
    a. When you get a good roll, you also get a bad roll.
    b. You'll always have three odds and three evens.

    Some characters are better with unbalanced stats than others, usually casters who can use magic to make up for physical deficiencies. But it works at making the rolls as a whole feel less unfair.


    And "pick from the pool"
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Coffron
    Example
    Bob rolls 8, 12, 12, 13, 14, 14
    Mark rolls 12, 14, 15, 16, 16, 17
    Anne rolls 9, 11, 12, 15, 15, 16

    These all go in a pool and the first pick order is Mark, Anne, Bob. As stated, first players choose in order, then in reverse order, then in forward order again and so on.

    1st pick: Mark 17, Anne 16, Bob 16
    2nd pick: Bob 16, Anne 15, Mark 15
    3rd pick: Mark 15, Anne 14, Bob 14
    4th pick: Bob 14, Anne 13, Mark 12
    5th pick: Mark 12, Anne 12, Bob 12
    6th pick: Bob: 11, Anne 9, Mark 8
    The end result is:
    Mark: 17, 15, 15, 12, 12, 8
    Anne: 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 9
    Bob: 16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 11
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

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