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Thread: Watchmen

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Watchmen

    So, the first episode is out, and I approached this with guarded optimism. I never read the original comic, only saw a little bit of the movie, so itís not a property I know much about. That saidówilling to take a look. Superheroes, alternate history, outlaw status, thatís my happy place. Sounds promising, so gave it a shot.

    I made it about fifteen minutes in. It started in a time and place I didnít expect, with action both awful and thoroughly perplexing, and then kept me thoroughly confused and frustrated thereafter.

    One main source of confusion is that it seems to be layering some contemporary issues rather thickly onto whatever story was present from the original. But Iím not sure how Iím supposed to feel about whatís being presented, and completely baffled as to how exactly this alternate world operates.

    Confused and frustrated is not a good state to keep your viewers in, and fifteen minutes without a character to care about is time I could have spent watching something else. Iím not likely to return to this, but Iíd be interested to know if anyone else has seen it, and whether others had the same reaction.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Watchmen

    So let me get this straight: Palanan watches the watchmen?

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    One one side we have trigger happy cops who illegally kidnap and torture people and would be using their guns without the controls, on the other hand we have white supremacists militiamen who are telling the truth about the squid attacks but ya know are still racist terrorists.

    Yea i don't care about any of these characters and was rooting for them to kill each other off.
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    Default Re: Watchmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Zmeoaice View Post
    Yea i don't care about any of these characters and was rooting for them to kill each other off.
    I rather them adapt Alan Moore's "For the Man who has Everything" instead of Watchmen [or The Killing Joke which occured 2 years ago.]

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Watchmen

    Originally Posted by Zmeoaice
    One one side....
    Looks like I missed absolutely nothing. I appreciate the confirmation.

    Was any of that in the original comics, or did someone just hijack this property to tell their own radically different story? In other words, did they pull a Pennyworth?

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Watchmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Looks like I missed absolutely nothing. I appreciate the confirmation.

    Was any of that in the original comics, or did someone just hijack this property to tell their own radically different story? In other words, did they pull a Pennyworth?
    Sounds like a Sequel, so the latter I guess?
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  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Watchmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Looks like I missed absolutely nothing. I appreciate the confirmation.

    Was any of that in the original comics, or did someone just hijack this property to tell their own radically different story? In other words, did they pull a Pennyworth?
    Yes and no. The comic first establishes a cast of characters that are either weirdly interesting or likable before basically warping each of them inside out and backwards. The character set up to be a perfectly good save the world type is capable of killing millions. The psychotic little right wing nut is the only one who remains loyal to his morals and his friends throughout the story. And while all the superheroics are going on it is brilliantly juxtaposed by two stories. One of two completely normal people who react to the changing world, aending in I believe the only completely selfless act taken in the whole story. And a comic within a comic that shows a man damn himself to stop a threat that never happened in the first place. Both of these stories become very important when trying to decipher the meaning of the work as a whole.

    Because importantly, Watchmen ends. And it ends at a specific time where moving the story even a single day forward would by necessity answer questions the writing has intentionally left ambiguous. People are still to this day arguing over who was right and wrong in that book. And thatís important because the work invites those discussions purposely.

    So the new show has the ridiculous task of trying to tie up loose ends that were designed to remain loose. While fitting into a story that took pains to slowly reveal all the moral greyness and ambiguity. And from everything Iíve heard they decided to do that by just throwing all the ambiguity right at the viewerís face without taking the time to get the viewer to understand where theyíre coming from.

    But for the record. Police brutality vs costumed racists is not completely out of left field as a possibility to erupt from the events of the Watchmen comic. Itís just that Moore very consciously left that as only one possibility among many of what could happen next. And we were all supposed to argue about it and through that argument reveal what we took out of the work personally.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I rather them adapt Alan Moore's "For the Man who has Everything" instead of Watchmen [or The Killing Joke which occured 2 years ago.]
    They did. It was a Justice League Unlimited Episode, season 1, episode 2.

    It is probably the most faithful adaptation of anything he wrote.
    Last edited by Zmeoaice; 2019-10-28 at 06:15 PM.

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    PirateGirl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    ...the only completely selfless act taken in the whole story.
    Are you referring to the psychologist's actions or the newspaper stand salesman's actions? Or Ozymandias's actions?
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    Default Re: Watchmen

    It's definitely interesting - but the content is such that discussing it on a forum with a no politics, no religion rule seems unwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zmeoaice View Post
    They did. It was a Justice League Unlimited Episode, season 1, episode 2.

    It is probably the most faithful adaptation of anything he wrote.
    Yes they did adapt it there, but that still had changes, changes I can't really talk about due to the politic rules of this forum.

    (But hey Moore was happy with that specific adaptation for once. So rejoice for this is such a rare thing for Moore always got the raw end of the deal with contracts and adaptations.)

    -----

    Also another change I can actually talk about. While I enjoy the Batman money joke, it was actually Batman and not Wonder Woman who got Superman the rose.
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2019-10-28 at 08:24 PM.
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerMug Paladin View Post
    Are you referring to the psychologist's actions or the newspaper stand salesman's actions?
    I actually forgot about the psychologist. Itís been years.

    But I was referring to the newspaper stand guy, and most certainly and completely not the hidden one you snuck in there.

    Dude has a whole comic issue dedicated to his messiah complex.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Not even the prequel comics were such a bad idea and they didn't suffer from such a poor execution. And those were unnecessary and forgettable.

    I mean c'mon. What were they thinking? I imagine the writing session went kind of like this, after they were able to get the rights:

    "Watchmen. Huh. We've got nothing but we need something. It's not that hard... Watch... Men... Aha! Watches! They go "tick-tock"! We'll have the men go "tick-tock" too! It's symbolic or something!

    See? Watch. and men. Watchmen!

    Brilliant! And if we can swindle money for a second season, we'll also make these Watchmen watch something. Maybe watches. It'll be doubly genius!

    Then we can make these Watchmen work as watchmen... who watch watches! Because watchmen are like guards or something.

    Wait. Are there watches or clocks or stuff like that in the original funny papers? There are? See, this is genius!"

    I'd rather see an adaptation of the original story or a prequel story but I guess both of those things would cost too much for a tv-budget. Heck, even a sequel story would be acceptable if it wasn't this cringy.
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    EvilClericGuy

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    I'm personally only watching to see if anything worthwhile comes out of Jeremy Irons Ozymandias. The rest hasn't exactly been thrilling me yet.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    I am now very cynical whenever Hollywood takes takes a successful movie/show/comic from the 80s and repackages it for resale. If, after 1-2 seasons, people I trust say its good I might watch it.

    I assume Alan Moore will have nothing to do with it?

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by napoleon_in_rag View Post
    I assume Alan Moore will have nothing to do with it?
    Alan Moore refuses to get involved in any adaptations of his work, or even to have his name attached to the credits.

    I owe Emanick 20 quatloos if the Sphinx Pox turns out to have a further story role beyond "passing commentary" - and vice versa.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Watchmen

    While I have no idea what the critical praise for this show is based on, I'm still watching it. The Adrian Veidt portions are getting more interesting. The inclusion of Laurie Blake has at least given me a few laughs with her attitude of being completely over costumed shenanigans. The last episode, in my opinion, really hit on some interesting topics, one big one in particular. I'll spoil my other comments just in case.
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    So, the most recent episode featured the giant, psychic squid. As someone who really likes the movie, and who felt that there was a missed opportunity with the squid, it was nice to get to see it in some form. The more interesting moment is later in the episode though. Adrian Veidt recorded a video for President Redford. In 1985, several years before his election. The video laid out that he was responsible for the squid and what the hoped for outcome would be (up to and including the election of Robert Redford as President). The 7th Kavalry have a copy of this video and Looking Glass watches it, which seems to seriously shake him. The whole episode up to that point had been showing how surviving the squid (he was in the psychic blast zone but survived) has really screwed up his life. So, it's a real kick in the pants for him to see this video. The 7th Kavalry apparently also have a functioning teleportation device (which presumably still has the slight defect from the book of killing anything living that goes through).

    Speaking of Adrian, he's in some kind of enclosure in space. He ends up breaching the enclosure and uses the bodies of his servants that he has been shooting into space to spell out a message for a passing satellite to observe.

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    Default Re: Watchmen

    So Tyrant I am not watching the show nuWatchmen, nor am I much of the fan of the comic (parts of the comic is brilliant for Alan Moore is brilliant, but original Watchmen is still not my cup of tea.) Yet I am curious just the same and thus this question in the spoiler blocks.

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    If I recall my comics correctly with old Watchmen, Adrian Veidt covered his tracks including killing all the scientists involved with making the Squid before using the Squid.

    Are you telling me in nuWatchmen this Adrian Veidt is so sloppy that he had a video recording and a live person he told his plan too and this person became the President of the United States, who is President indefinitely?
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2019-11-19 at 08:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Watchmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    So Tyrant I am not watching the show nuWatchmen, nor am I much of the fan of the comic (parts of the comic are brilliant for Alan Moore is brilliant, but original Watchmen is still not my cup of tea.) Yet I am curious just the same and thus this question in the spoiler blocks.

    Spoiler
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    If I recall my comics correctly with old Watchmen, Adrian Veidt covered his tracks including killing all the scientists involved with making the Squid before using the Squid.

    Are you telling me in nuWatchmen this Adrian Veidt is so sloppy that he had a video recording and a live person he told his plan too and this person became the President of the United States, who is President indefinitely?
    Spoiler
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    Yep, and you are making the right choice. This series would be ok on its own but trying to live under the shadow of watchmen just just shows all the ways itís lazy and uninspired by comparison even if individual moments and arcs are ok.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Watchmen

    I don't know how to react. That sounds incredibly dumb but weirdly interesting nonetheless.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Watchmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    So Tyrant I am not watching the show nuWatchmen, nor am I much of the fan of the comic (parts of the comic is brilliant for Alan Moore is brilliant, but original Watchmen is still not my cup of tea.) Yet I am curious just the same and thus this question in the spoiler blocks.

    Spoiler
    Show
    If I recall my comics correctly with old Watchmen, Adrian Veidt covered his tracks including killing all the scientists involved with making the Squid before using the Squid.

    Are you telling me in nuWatchmen this Adrian Veidt is so sloppy that he had a video recording and a live person he told his plan too and this person became the President of the United States, who is President indefinitely?
    Spoiler
    Show
    More or less. He made a video shortly before he executes the plan. This video is meant for future President Robert Redford. To be clear, I mean that he is meant to watch it after becoming President. As near as I can tell, Adrian didn't give him the video before he became President as he refers to Redford in the video as having just become President. Adrian also explains that his machinations have lead to that outcome in that election as his views largely align with Redford's.

    I'm torn on the issue. On the one hand, without something like this Adrian is basically trusting in humanity to do the right thing now that he has scared the crap out of them. And that conflicts with the fact that the story is where it is because humanity doesn't do the right thing as often as not. And we don't know what all the tape says. On the other hand, doing this is an obvious liability to the plan. Especially once you find out how Looking Glass gets to see the tape. Apparently some Senators (or maybe all of them) are shown the tape and one of them is able to make a recording.

    Overall, I would be more concerned if this were in any way official. However, I believe this will ultimately be ignored in terms of canon. I'm sure most people won't even consider Doomsday Clock canon and it's published by DC. I'm looking at this like a sketchy What If?. Sorry this is DC, I meant Elseworlds.

    As for the President's term, I believe he is on his 5th term at this point in the story.

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    Default Re: Watchmen

    I just watched episode 6 and i have a question about historical facts.

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    Was there really a big slaughter in a cinema in New York in the 50s?
    I ask because the show tend to build on real events when possible.
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