Ability Score Candies

[Bartmanhomer]

I just thought of a candy that can raise PC ability score permanently.

Ability Score Candies.

Strength Candy: Can raise your strength score by +1.

Dexterity Candy: Can raise your dexterity score by +1.

Constitution Candy: Can raise your constitution score by +1.

Intelligence Candy: Can raise your Intelligence score by +1.

Wisdom Candy: Can raise your Wisdom score by +1.

Charisma Candy: Can raise your Charisma score by +1.

The price cost about by 1 PP each.

So what do you think about it?

[JeenLeen]

PP meaning platinum?

If it's a temporary (1 hour, maybe? 1 minute?), one-use consumable that doesn't stack with itself, I could see allowing it as something akin to a potion. However, if such exists, it's open to abuse as optimizers at high level could just drop 6 PP to boost all their stats by one. While it wouldn't do stuff like unlock bonus spell slots, that could impact saves, spell DCs, and accuracy/damage rolls.

But maybe that's not too bad compared to the idea of quaffing a couple potions before each serious fight. I'd just recommend giving it a duration such that you couldn't cheaply have it active all-day.

[Bartmanhomer]

PP meaning platinum?

If it's a temporary (1 hour, maybe? 1 minute?), one-use consumable that doesn't stack with itself, I could see allowing it as something akin to a potion. However, if such exists, it's open to abuse as optimizers at high level could just drop 6 PP to boost all their stats by one. While it wouldn't do stuff like unlock bonus spell slots, that could impact saves, spell DCs, and accuracy/damage rolls.

But maybe that's not too bad compared to the idea of quaffing a couple potions before each serious fight. I'd just recommend giving it a duration such that you couldn't cheaply have it active all-day.

PP as in Platinum Pieces yes. I could reduced the duration for a day at least.

[rel]

If you don't allow scores to go above racial maximums then minor stat boosts are a fun and simple power up / reward that doesn't unbalance the game much.

[DeTess]

PP as in Platinum Pieces yes. I could reduced the duration for a day at least.

You are aware that 1PP is only 10 GP, right? So someone could increase all their stats by 1 (or 1 stat by 6 if it stacks) for as much as the price of a suit of chainmail.

[Bartmanhomer]

You are aware that 1PP is only 10 GP, right? So someone could increase all their stats by 1 (or 1 stat by 6 if it stacks) for as much as the price of a suit of chainmail.

I thought it was 1,000 GP. Then I'll make it 1,000 GP.

[Trandir]

Just to know are you aware that exists already manuals that for 27500 gp increase one ability score by 1?

[Bartmanhomer]

Just to know are you aware that exists already manuals that for 27500 gp increase one ability score by 1?

I didn't know that. What are they?

[Trandir]

I didn't know that. What are they?

Books. You read them for 48 hours and bam you gain anything from +1 to +5 depending how much it costs.

From the DMG:
Page 261
Manual of Bodily Health: This thick tome contains tips on health and fitness, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, he gains an inherent bonus of
from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of manual) to his Constitution score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, wish or miracle; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.

Page 262
Manual of Gainful Exercise: This thick tome contains exercise descriptions and diet suggestions, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, she gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of manual) to her Strength score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, wish or miracle; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.

Manual of Quickness of Action: This thick tome contains tips on coordination exercises and balance, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book,
which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, he gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of manual) to his Dexterity score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, wish or miracle; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP
(+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb

Page 268
Tome of Clear Thought: This heavy book contains instruction on improving memory and logic, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, she gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of tome) to her Intelligence score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book. Because the tome of clear thought provides an inherent bonus, the reader will earn extra skill points when she attains a new level (unlike with the benefit provided by a headband of intellect).
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP
(+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.
Tome of Leadership and Influence: This ponderous book details suggestions for persuading and inspiring others, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, he gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of tome) to his Charisma score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP
(+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.
Tome of Understanding: This thick book contains tips for improving instinct and perception, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, she gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of tome) to her Wisdom score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.
Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP
(+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.


A power like that should be limited to legendary items.
If you want something along the lines of "eat the candy get buff" you should take inspiration from the drugs in the book of vile darkness. Those provide ability boost for a limited time and are addictive, and they alse destroy your body. Their price can vary anywhere between 1 pp (or 10 gp) up to 200 pp (or 2000 gp) per dose.

Edit: specify what kind of bonus those candies provide. Alchemist bonus seems resonable otherwise you can eat a couple of them and become the strongest creature in the plane.

[weckar]

Why candy, though? It seems so... Random? Anachronistic, anti-heroic, childish...

[Bartmanhomer]

Why candy, though? It seems so... Random? Anachronistic, anti-heroic, childish...

I thought it would be a good idea for a homebrew item.

[weckar]

But why did you think it a good idea, is what I was wondering? What was the thought process behind it?

[Bartmanhomer]

But why did you think it a good idea, is what I was wondering? What was the thought process behind it?

D&D 3.5 never have food that increase ability scores as far that I know so I made one up.

[weckar]

Didn't your mom ever teach you candy isn't food?

[Bartmanhomer]

Didn't your mom ever teach you candy isn't food?

I can tell that your joking. First of all if something edible it food so, therefore, candy is something that you can eat so it's food. Besides my mother taught me a lot of things when I was a little boy but that's for another thread.

[JeenLeen]

On the books, though, those are permanent bonuses that are almost as good as Untyped, in that I don't think anything else gives that type of bonus. Therefore, while they don't stack with themselves, they don't prevent you from getting any other types of buffs.

If your candies are temporary and don't stack with themselves, or are a really common bonus type like <I forget what the common ones are since haven't done 3.5 in a while>, then they'd probably be okay as they are limited to +1. Which is a fine, temporary thing not much different from a Potion of Cat's Grace or some such.

My point -- which I realize may be garbled based on how I wrote the above two statements -- is that your candies can make sense in the same setting as the books, as one is permanent and a rare Type while the other is temporary (and possibly a type that is common).

[El'the Ellie]

1 pp actually sounds fairly reasonable to me, if there are a few common limitations.

For reference, I'm doing math based on the guidelines for crafting new items

Limitations:
It's an enhancement bonus.
It lasts for 3 minutes.

Cat's Grace (and all other similar spells that enhance stats) are a second level sorcerer/wizard spell. Mechanically, it's similar to a potion: you pop it in your mouth and get some benefit for a short time. A potion of Cat's Grace is 300 gp and gives a +4 bonus. If things scaled linearly (that is to say, a +2 is twice as expensive as a +1) then our Cat's Grace Candy would cost 75 gp. But generally in D&D 3.5, stat bonuses don't scale linearly, they scale exponentially (specifically, they are squared). If a +1 thing costs 1,000 (1² * 1,000, or 1*1*1,000) then a +2 thing costs 4,000 (2² * 1,000, or 2*2*1,000)

Cat's Grace gives +4, and we're trying to tone it down to +1. 4²*X = 300 | X = 18.75. Thus, 1²*18.75 = 18.75 gp, or 1.8 pp.

1 pp is a bit low, but if you're the DM, heck, it's your world: maybe they're easier to produce, so wizards can get away with selling them for cheap. In game mechanics, it would only usually help if you have an odd score (since bonuses increase on even scores). I think in this case it's low power enough that there's wiggle room with the cost/duration to fit your world's needs. No one is going to break the game if this duration becomes three hours instead of three minutes.

Of course, IC people don't have as exact details on how stats work. I rather like this idea, and I think the candy theme makes sense since it seems like the type of 'borderline but largely harmless' thing some kids might use.

A nervous teen pops an Eagle's Splendor candy before asking someone to the dance.
The local sportsball team got disqualified since it was found out they used Bull's Strength candies before the game-winning play.
Everyone knows Peter's locker is full of Fox's Cunning candy wrappers, but his mom is on the schoolboard so the teachers look the other way.

---

If they give a permanent bonus, it's a whole different story, since that it much stronger. If that's the case, I would price it like Trandir said, almost identical to the books that do basically the same thing. You didn't list a bonus type: the books give an inherent bonus which is partially why they are so expensive. If they gave a different bonus type, such as divine or alchemical, I could see a case for reducing the cost by up to 50%. If it was an enhancement bonus, I could see the cost shooting way down to something like (bonus squared) * 2,000 gp (2,000 | 8,000 | 18,000 | etc) because at that point it is essentially a cloak of charisma (or what have you) that is also slotless (which doubles the price). Maybe add a few thousand because this particular enhancement bonus is very hard/impossible to remove. (Someone can take off your cloak of charisma, but people can't 'take off' the effects of the candy without dispelling it permanently.)

[Demidos]

1 pp actually sounds fairly reasonable to me, if there are a few common limitations...It lasts for 3 minutes....1 pp is a bit low, but if you're the DM, heck, it's your world

---

If they give a permanent bonus, it's a whole different story, since that it much stronger. If that's the case, I would price it like Trandir said, almost identical to the books that do basically the same thing. You didn't list a bonus type: the books give an inherent bonus which is partially why they are so expensive. If they gave a different bonus type, such as divine or alchemical, I could see a case for reducing the cost by up to 50%. If it was an enhancement bonus, I could see the cost shooting way down to something like (bonus squared) * 2,000 gp (2,000 | 8,000 | 18,000 | etc) because at that point it is essentially a cloak of charisma (or what have you) that is also slotless (which doubles the price). Maybe add a few thousand because this particular enhancement bonus is very hard/impossible to remove. (Someone can take off your cloak of charisma, but people can't 'take off' the effects of the candy without dispelling it permanently.)

I would argue that alchemical or divine bonuses are easily as strong as inherent, if not stronger. I can't think of a single source of ability score boosts that a normal PC can access that grants alchemical or divine (why divine?) bonuses, meaning they effectively stack with everything.

For the second version, the only way of "dispelling" the enchantment bonus (that I'm aware of) would be Mordenkainen's disjunction, which many DM's (in my experience) treat with a lot of care since it can completely throw out your game's balance by destroying all of a PC's items.

TLDR: I guess the summary is, the inherent bonuses in the DMG may be a bit overpriced, but I would keep these bonuses on par with those bonuses, since they will be very close to the same strength.

[Bartmanhomer]

I like to thank everybody input on my Ability Score Candies. I could raise the temporary Ability Score Candies to maybe 5,000 GP and the permanent Ability Score Candies to 10,000 GP.

[El'the Ellie]

Do as you like as the GM, of course, though it sounds like the point might have been a bit missed.

5,000 GP for a temporary +1 is extremely expensive. If my DM introduced such an object in the game, I would definitely not choose to spend my money on it, and if I found one I would probably sell it.

10,000 GP for a permanent bonus would either:
more than I was willing to pay (if it was a common bonus like enhancement). I'd much rather pay 4,000 gp for a +2 bonus
- or -
a very good deal if it was an inherent bonus, that I would buy if I had the spare money. (Note that the inherent bonus items are still 'ultra luxury' things for PC's. Most people who buy them will probably be flushed with cash and have a good reason for maximizing every point of an ability.)

[Trandir]

I like to thank everybody input on my Ability Score Candies. I could raise the temporary Ability Score Candies to maybe 5,000 GP and the permanent Ability Score Candies to 10,000 GP.

This again depends on the type of bonus and the duration of the candy.

For anything less than a year of +1 5.000 gp is too much. Probably a +1 is worth around 50 if it lasts for a couple of minutes.

10.000 gp for an inherent +1 is good, the official ones are a bit overpriced to be fair. OTOH if it's enchantment bonus this is trash.

But you should add the type of bonus that this candies provide.

[Bartmanhomer]

This again depends on the type of bonus and the duration of the candy.

For anything less than a year of +1 5.000 gp is too much. Probably a +1 is worth around 50 if it lasts for a couple of minutes.

10.000 gp for an inherent +1 is good, the official ones are a bit overpriced to be fair. OTOH if it's enchantment bonus this is trash.

But you should add the type of bonus that this candies provide.

What kind of type of bonus are you talking about? I would love to hear about it.

[Trandir]

What kind of type of bonus are you talking about? I would love to hear about it.

I'm talking about the bonus provided by these candies

[El'the Ellie]

What kind of type of bonus are you talking about? I would love to hear about it.

I hope I'm not backing up and explaining too much.

Almost all bonuses in D&D are organized into types. Even bonuses that don't mention a specific type are of the 'untyped' type.

For example, Cat's Grace gives a +4 enhancement bonus. Masterwork instruments give a +2 competence bonus. A bard's Inspire Courage gives a +1 (or higher) morale bonus. These words, enhancement, competence, and morale, are not just fun descriptions to show in what way they make your character better (although they also do that!), they have mechanical implications on the way the game is played. The most relevant rule about bonus types is that bonuses of the same type usually don't stack. That is to say, if I have many bonuses of the same type applying to the same score, I don't add them (The term 'stack' makes you think of physically building a big tower by stacking things on top of each other.)

If I have a dexterity score of 10, and an effect gives me a +4 enhancement bonus to dexterity, and another effect gives me a +5 enhancement bonus to dexterity, my dexterity score will be 15. This is because the two bonuses weren't added together, so I just took the highest one.
By contrast, if I have a dexterity score of 10, and an effect gives me a +4 enhancement bonus to dexterity, and another effect gives me a +5 morale bonus to dexterity, my dexterity score will be 19. This is because bonuses of different types do stack, so I add them together.

This is the reason that you can't cast Cat's Grace on yourself several times to keep increasing your dexterity score: since they all provide an enhancement bonus, they won't be added together.

Note that enhancement, morale, and competence bonuses are only examples. There are many types. The SRD has a page showing many of the types in the game, and explaining the rules well. As the GM, you can introduce a new type if you want to.

---

The reason the type matters for your item, is that it matters how the bonuses interact with other things that give bonuses. For example, Gloves of Dexterity are fairly common magic items to buy that grant a +2, +4, or +6 enhancement bonus to dexterity. If the candies provided an enhancement bonus, they would be less valuable because a player can get an enhancement bonus by some other means. In that case, the candies don't stack with gloves, so players will probably prefer the option that gives a higher bonus.
By contrast, very few things that I know of give a Luck bonus to dexterity. If the candies gave a Luck bonus (for example) players would be much more motivated to buy them because that bonus will stack with almost everything else that modifies their dexterity.

There are essentially three factors to consider when deciding how much these candies should cost to be balanced with the other items that players can buy.
1. How big is this bonus? Based on your first post, it's +1, which is reasonable for a cheap item. (Anything less than 100 gp is cheap when talking about ability score enhancements)
2. How long does this bonus last? One minute? One hour? One year? Forever? In a real world example, I would spend maybe $5 on a lightbulb that lasted all year. I certainly wouldn't spend that much on a lightbulb that lasted one minute! And I would be willing to spend a fair amount more on a lightbulb that would last forever.
3. What type of bonus does it give? As we mentioned, the answer to this question determines if the candy will be effective or not. (If I already have a +4 enhancement bonus to dexterity and use a candy that gives a +1 enhancement bonus to dexterity, my score doesn't change so the candy was effectively useless.)

[Bartmanhomer]

I hope I'm not backing up and explaining too much.

Almost all bonuses in D&D are organized into types. Even bonuses that don't mention a specific type are of the 'untyped' type.

For example, Cat's Grace gives a +4 enhancement bonus. Masterwork instruments give a +2 competence bonus. A bard's Inspire Courage gives a +1 (or higher) morale bonus. These words, enhancement, competence, and morale, are not just fun descriptions to show in what way they make your character better (although they also do that!), they have mechanical implications on the way the game is played. The most relevant rule about bonus types is that bonuses of the same type usually don't stack. That is to say, if I have many bonuses of the same type applying to the same score, I don't add them (The term 'stack' makes you think of physically building a big tower by stacking things on top of each other.)

If I have a dexterity score of 10, and an effect gives me a +4 enhancement bonus to dexterity, and another effect gives me a +5 enhancement bonus to dexterity, my dexterity score will be 15. This is because the two bonuses weren't added together, so I just took the highest one.
By contrast, if I have a dexterity score of 10, and an effect gives me a +4 enhancement bonus to dexterity, and another effect gives me a +5 morale bonus to dexterity, my dexterity score will be 19. This is because bonuses of different types do stack, so I add them together.

This is the reason that you can't cast Cat's Grace on yourself several times to keep increasing your dexterity score: since they all provide an enhancement bonus, they won't be added together.

Note that enhancement, morale, and competence bonuses are only examples. There are many types. The SRD has a page showing many of the types in the game, and explaining the rules well. As the GM, you can introduce a new type if you want to.

---

The reason the type matters for your item, is that it matters how the bonuses interact with other things that give bonuses. For example, Gloves of Dexterity are fairly common magic items to buy that grant a +2, +4, or +6 enhancement bonus to dexterity. If the candies provided an enhancement bonus, they would be less valuable because a player can get an enhancement bonus by some other means. In that case, the candies don't stack with gloves, so players will probably prefer the option that gives a higher bonus.
By contrast, very few things that I know of give a Luck bonus to dexterity. If the candies gave a Luck bonus (for example) players would be much more motivated to buy them because that bonus will stack with almost everything else that modifies their dexterity.

There are essentially three factors to consider when deciding how much these candies should cost to be balanced with the other items that players can buy.
1. How big is this bonus? Based on your first post, it's +1, which is reasonable for a cheap item. (Anything less than 100 gp is cheap when talking about ability score enhancements)
2. How long does this bonus last? One minute? One hour? One year? Forever? In a real world example, I would spend maybe $5 on a lightbulb that lasted all year. I certainly wouldn't spend that much on a lightbulb that lasted one minute! And I would be willing to spend a fair amount more on a lightbulb that would last forever.
3. What type of bonus does it give? As we mentioned, the answer to this question determines if the candy will be effective or not. (If I already have a +4 enhancement bonus to dexterity and use a candy that gives a +1 enhancement bonus to dexterity, my score doesn't change so the candy was effectively useless.)

No you explaining great.

[Bohandas]

Why candy, though? It seems so... Random? Anachronistic, anti-heroic, childish...

I assumed it was a reference to Rare Candy from Pokemon

[Bartmanhomer]

Well there's a story behind the candies:

Adrian Woodenhawk (A Chaotic Good Male Elf Wizard) was thinking of a magical treat that anybody can eat. So he created a candy that can boost stats: He called them Ability Score Candies. He received fame from the Material Plane worldwide and he has his own company to created candies for profit and he's still alive today.

[Anymage]

To repeat something Ellie said, you still aren't covering the rules.

Anyways, there are two ways to go about this. The pokemon route, where the candy gives a permanent boost to your ability score, are best handled as stat tomes. That would also make them super expensive. While in theory nothing prevents you from making these in the form of a candy, they'd be really easy to misplace or have someone else mindlessly eat them, so not the most ideal form.

The other idea is to just use regular potion rules. Which includes ones of stat boosting spells that can give someone +4 to a stat for 6 minutes, but can also include things like healing candies, haste candies, invisibility candies, or whatever else you might like. You can make these jolly ranchers if you like, or you can make them more thematically in-line as things like small cakes or infused slices of fruit. These wouldn't be a new item, though, instead being just a different look for something that has existed since the PHB came out.

[Bartmanhomer]

To repeat something Ellie said, you still aren't covering the rules.

Anyways, there are two ways to go about this. The pokemon route, where the candy gives a permanent boost to your ability score, are best handled as stat tomes. That would also make them super expensive. While in theory nothing prevents you from making these in the form of a candy, they'd be really easy to misplace or have someone else mindlessly eat them, so not the most ideal form.

The other idea is to just use regular potion rules. Which includes ones of stat boosting spells that can give someone +4 to a stat for 6 minutes, but can also include things like healing candies, haste candies, invisibility candies, or whatever else you might like. You can make these jolly ranchers if you like, or you can make them more thematically in-line as things like small cakes or infused slices of fruit. These wouldn't be a new item, though, instead being just a different look for something that has existed since the PHB came out.

Didn't I already explain that part?

[El'the Ellie]

Didn't I already explain that part?

If you did, I think we all missed it. I believe most of us are still wondering what your decision is on:

1. Type of bonus
2. Duration of bonus
3. Price

A few posts ago you mentioned changing the cost to 10,000 gp for a permanent version and 5,000 gp for a temporary version. These seem to be priced such that you'd have a hard time finding any buyers, when you compare them to other things in the game that people could buy to increase stats. Also, they both still need a type for the bonus.