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2019-10-28, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Hi, title says it all, this is something I thought up randomly, if it contradicts something or sounds stupid, feel free to say so!
So. A lot of people have cited Fyron's Son as Oots' only plothole or contradiction, being that Fyron's Son does not appear when we see Xykon murder him, yet is referred to by Roy when he accuses Xykon of his crimes, and I thiiiiiink when Eugene talks about Xykon to Roy in On the Origin of PCs or Start of Darkness? Both of those copies are at my house and I'm currently studying out-of-state in a dorm in college, so I can't really check.
I think there was one user who was really adamant about this being a contradiction. I think it was either Sunken Valley or David Argall, could be wrong and my apologies to those users if not.
However, I remember recently, about the ten million dwarf souls, how Rich gave a little speech about "Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?"
And then Durkon's spiel about how Sigdi told him to bury his feelings for Dwarven honor seemed to contradict her character in the flashbacks... until we got to that amazing scene with Vampire Durkon, and a supposed 'contradiction' became an epic conclusion to an arc.
So what if I tried to make an assumption that fits with the text, that creates a legitimate emotional pay off for Fyron's Son?
Here's my take. Fyron never had a son. Eugene is his son. Not biologically, obviously, because Eugene Greenhilt is the son of Horace Greenhilt, but the two were distant. And if we look at the way Eugene lovingly describes his master, it's pretty clear that Fyron was more of a father to him than anyone else.
Xykon didn't literally kill Eugene Greenhilt, he did so emotionally. Killing Fyron by hitting him over and over with a trophy, like a brute force fighter like Horace Greenhilt, broke Eugene's will by taking away his father, rolemodel, and mentor in a manner so humiliating for a wizard that it left Eugene purposeless and angry.
In fact, Sarah Greenhilt describes Eugene's fatal flaw as his inability to see anything through. But we don't actually have any evidence of that flaw existing before Fyron's death. Before Fyron died, Eugene was seemingly very happy to pursue magical research together for the rest of his life, not showing any sign of getting bored of it. This fatal flaw might be a manifestation of Eugene's spirit having been broken. Nothing else feels as purposeful as what he lost, so he effectively drifted from goal to goal as a bitter and broken man.
There's a lot of signs that Eugene knows his own flaws and might secretly be ashamed of them. I remember the scene with Right Eye in Start of Darkness, where he turns down a chance of vengeance to try to be a better father, only to fail horribly. In other words, he may have died of old age, but that would be the cause of death, not the mechanism. He considers himself Fyron's Son and Xykon's victim.
I don't think Roy would know this. Eugene likely told him "Xykon murdered Master Fyron and his son" without explaining that he identified as his son. And I think there'll be a payoff of this line in book 7. Rich will probably have Eugene reveal the truth about the matter after Xykon dies, apologize for all his faults, and explain to Roy who Fyron's Son truely was. It'll be a heartbreaking speech and then he'll move on to the Lawful Good afterlife in the end.
This might not happen. For all we know, there may never be a payoff or a revisit to this line. But I tried to make an assumption that fits with the text and would have a narrative value to Eugene's character. I feel like everyone of Rich's characters is thought out from the beginning, and every line or hint they have safely expected to have a pay off (see ALL the Malack/Miko foreshadowings) and I'm sure whatever conclusion he gives Eugene, I'll be satisfied. But if I'm right about this, dear lord am I going to make hundreds more theories
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2019-10-28, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Well, you successfully got me to feel sorry for Eugene. So, nice. Seriously, though. I've always been attached to the idea that there's more redeemable qualities in Eugene. He was LG once, and Sara must have seen SOMETHING in him. Or maybe that's just my affection for playing Wizards talking. Either way, not sure how plausible this theory is, but I like the idea that Eugene was, at some point, a better guy then he is now. That's why I like the idea of his relationship with Horace being similar to Roy's relationship with him, even if I admit the text seems to lean towards blaming Eugene.
Last edited by woweedd; 2019-10-29 at 03:08 PM.
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2019-10-28, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
It is certainly an intriguing idea... We will see if it is accurate.
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2019-10-28, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Fyron's Son/Redcloak's Niece= ship potential 100%?
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2019-10-28, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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2019-10-28, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Like Star Wars, ponies, and/or unabashed silliness? Check out my YouTube channel, Nothing In Particular, for a healthy dose of absurdity. It's just what the doctor ordered!*
* Surgeon General's Warning: May cause chronic hideous laughter, eye rolling, or beleaguered sighs. Not intended to prevent, diagnose, or treat any disease.
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2019-10-29, 08:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-29, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2019-10-29, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Why would such theory crack any pot?
Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
(Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)
"I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"
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2019-10-29, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
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2019-10-29, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Like Star Wars, ponies, and/or unabashed silliness? Check out my YouTube channel, Nothing In Particular, for a healthy dose of absurdity. It's just what the doctor ordered!*
* Surgeon General's Warning: May cause chronic hideous laughter, eye rolling, or beleaguered sighs. Not intended to prevent, diagnose, or treat any disease.
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2019-10-29, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Arrrgh, here be me extended sig!
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2019-10-29, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Actual literary analysis on the OOTS Forums? What kind of dark wizardry is this!
But seriously, I like the theory. I didn't think I would, but by the end of the OP I did. Still think Fyron's son is one of those things that will forever go unanswered, but this "crackpot" theory does a pretty good job of addressing the matter.
EDIT: I really liked this part in particular (emphasis mine):
Originally Posted by Toad
Well done!Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-10-29 at 01:47 PM.
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2019-10-29, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Tfw you make a thread with a lengthy theory that took a bit of time to write up and all the comments are shipping Fyron's Son and Redcloaks daughter.
Come on guys, I was looking for more feedback! Ah well, my fault for calling it a crackpot theory to save face when nervous. Now everyone took the crack.
Seriously though, while I tried to make a theory that could account for the Fyron's Son "contradiction", I couldn't really think of any narratively satisfying way for Redcloak's neice to show up. The Giant has mentioned wanting to make sure that Start of Darkness isn't *necessary* for the main plot: that's why he had two reveals for Redcloak's plan, with Tsukiko's death and Start of Darkness, and Durkon's prophecy, with Hurak and Firuk. It feels like at this point, to a casual reader "And suddenly Redcloak had a neice that wasn't mentioned until now!" isn't going to fly.
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2019-10-29, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Dang! My post complaining about a lack of response to effort was preceded by a response that took effort! I think they call that ninja'd on this forum?
But anyway, I completely agree that I don't expect it to really be answered. I was just taking a self excercise in using the Giant's advice about making assumptions that fit the text. I'm glad you like it though!
And the part you mentioned about Eugene's disapproval of fighters was something I thought of while typing, so I'm glad that worked out. Sadly, I think it means I spent all my intelligence points for the week and will now fail a midterm.
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2019-10-29, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
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- Elemental Plane of Water
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Ok, then:
While I find the reading of "Eugene as Fyron's metaphorical son" a compelling one, there are a couple of ways I think it runs into a big problem:
Eugene has a notoriously large ego, as has been evidenced by him bragging about being named the #1 Illusionist in some fancy magazine (think that was SOD?) and his overall disdain for any idea that doesn't involve solving things with magic. Given this, I find it unlikely Eugene would pass up an opportunity to highlight his own part in the Xykon/Fyron saga by substituting in some random, unnamed "son." Also passes up an opportunity to get in another dig at Fighters: "Xykon murdered Fyron, who was much more of a father to me than the brute that was your Grandfather."
So the mention of a son for Fyron is probably not a smokescreen to conceal Eugene's fraternal feelings for his old master. It's probably just a thread that will forever be left unpulled.
EDIT: As I said before, I like your analysis. I'm mostly just playing Devil's Advocate with this post.Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-10-29 at 02:06 PM.
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2019-10-29, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Devil's Advocacy can definetely help continue a discussion. Alright, I'm gonna go ahead and try to defend the theory and maybe make something unique. Let's see.
Assuming Eugene is metaphorically Fyron's son, there has to be a reason Eugene doesn't want to highlight his own part in the Xykon/Fyron saga, despite being an egotistical shmuck. How about shame?
He's supposed to be a powerful wizard, yet in that moment he couldn't protect the only father figure he ever had from a trophy wielding brute. The shame of that moment is part of what he believes is the death of his person, the root of his inability to commit to something, his emptiness and bitterness. Of course he wouldn't want to admit weakness to Roy.
Of course, he does tell Roy he was there and that he didn't make a difference and was an apprentice at the time. But the stone hard facts are easier to deliver than confessing to an estranged son that the reason you are garbage as a person is because of this event. In other words, Eugene is too prideful to admit to his emotional involvement and vulnerability.
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2019-10-29, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-29, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Hey they're both unnamed relatives of side-characters whose stories could easily have been wrapped up in SoD but weren't! If that doesn't sound like a bonding experience then I don't know what is.
I liked your theory as a 'possible, but not probable' twist, its unlikely to happen as the story's moving away from Eugene's blood oath; the story's more complicated now, without trying to drag it back to one man's revenge.
It'll be interesting to see what print-only info Rich puts into the last book. The fact Redcloak's niece isn't mentioned doesn't mean she won't appear; the same could be said of Crystal and Bozzok, until DStP.
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2019-10-29, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Heh, I just couldn't resist pulling that out in response to "metaphorical." The idea itself is pretty well-thought-out; I tend to not think things like this are talked about in metaphor in this story (I could see Eugene flat-out lying for whatever reason, though), but I feel like I don't have enough information to offer any credible speculation on the actual explanation for the inconsistency.
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2019-10-29, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-30, 03:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-10-30, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-10-30, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-10-30, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2019-10-30, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2019-10-30, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-11-01, 01:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2019-11-01, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
(Wishing Joe, a low-powered superhero)
"I really like the Geek Math'ology we do here"
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2019-11-01, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
- Gender
Re: Crackpot Theory: Fyron's Son is Metaphorical
Like Star Wars, ponies, and/or unabashed silliness? Check out my YouTube channel, Nothing In Particular, for a healthy dose of absurdity. It's just what the doctor ordered!*
* Surgeon General's Warning: May cause chronic hideous laughter, eye rolling, or beleaguered sighs. Not intended to prevent, diagnose, or treat any disease.