OOTS #1184 - The Discussion Thread

[Garwain]

Her issue is significance.

She made choices and is determined to live with the consequences of those choices, and every attempt by others to 'help' her by shielding her from those consequences cheapens the choice. If the conesequences can easily be overcome then the choice wasn't all that hard, and therefore her choice lacks real meaning.

Buying a dress for her may seem like a nice thing to do. It robs her choice to live within her means of significance.

Knowing her husband was dying she held on to his hand rather than allowing him to die alone. It cost her an arm. Sure it's a big sacrifice, but it demonstrated that she valued her love for him more than her own life.

Instead of dying with her husband it only cost her an arm. How much would it cheapen her own perception of her love if it turns out that she could havd a new arm?

Want to save a village from a hungry lion? Lop off a leg, feed the lion, then regenerate a new leg. No big deal.

One of Sigdi's defining characteristics is her love for her husband. She proved to herself how much she loved him when she was ready to die with him. Now her son wants to rob her sacrifice of significance.

This, spot on.

[Petrocorus]

A big problem with the consent analogies keep making is that Sigdi is the one with all the power in the relationship. Durkon isn't going to be able to force (or even pressure) Sigdi into anything, least of all by politely discussing a thing. Sigdi is the parent and Durkon the child; his being potty trained and learning to control the thunders doesn't change that for them.

I think the main problem with the consent analogy is the analogy itself.
Discussing if whether Sigdi should get her arm back or not despite having emotional issues about it is in no way akin to removing sexual consent to women.

I was basically called a rape apologist 3 pages ago for simply pointing out that Sigdi hasn't explicitly say "no" and may still be undecided about it.

[Dr.Zero]

I was basically called a rape apologist 3 pages ago for simply pointing out that Sigdi hasn't explicitly say "no" and may still be undecided about it.

I dare to say more: even if a relative says explictly "no", a son (or mother, if the things are backwards) who is in a good relationship with the mother (or son) is completely entitled to ask a couple of times: "Are you sure?" and explain the possible problems with that no.
"Talking", it was called, back at the time.
Of course, then if the subject says clearly: "I don't want to talk about it anymore, quit it!" it is good manners to respect that.

I've tried to stay out of this, but I'm too much startled by the fact that this thing is taken seriously. This thread, as I pointed out pages ago, has reached new peaks, even for this forum, in taking seriously a reasoning which should have been dismissed with naught but a laugh.

Especially seeing as talking is taken as a serious offense, today, while a couple of weeks ago a forced marriage was considered not so serious, or maybe yes, whatever. By the same person, nonetheless.

So, let's say that people of common sense agree that talking with -and even, Gods forgive us, inquiring- a relative with whom you are in a good relationship about major (or even minor) impacting choices is not an offense, and move on, I say.

[Quebbster]

Especially seeing as talking is taken as a serious offense, today, while a couple of weeks ago a forced marriage was considered not so serious, or maybe yes, whatever. By the same person, nonetheless.

That post really shouldn't be taken out of context like that. Just saying.
Anyway, I am very much in favor of Durkon and Sigdi letting the matter rest for a while so each can ponder the respective sides in the argument. Sometimes you need to take a step back, but that's not necessarily the same as dropping the issue altogether.

[Emmit Svenson]

Regenerate is a 7th level Cleric spell, but so is Plane Shift.

(Me: Attempts Will saving throw vs. rule spouting)

(Me: Fails)

Actually, Plane Shift is a 5th level spell for clerics.

[KorvinStarmast]

(Me: Attempts Will saving throw vs. rule spouting)
(Me: Fails)
Actually, Plane Shift is a 5th level spell for clerics.

They might have been thinking about 5e. (Or forgetting that spells can be different levels for different classes ...)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Structural Engineering is a very dwarfy thing to learn. Those caves don't make THEMSELVES perfect for dwarven habitation.

Uncle Roy could tutor him in Architecture and Engineering.

[Lord Torath]

Uncle Roy could tutor him in Architecture and Engineering.

And Calculus can come in handy with that. Another good course of study would be "Geology", "Plate Tectonics", and "Earthquakes: Analysis and Predictions". Perhaps throw in some "Strength of Materials" and "Behavior of Crystaline and Semi-Crystaline Materials Under Continual Load". "Effects of Plate Tectonics on Subterranean Structures".

At least a few ranks of "Knowledge (Religion)" might be a good idea too.

[The MunchKING]

At least a few ranks of "Knowledge (Religion)" might be a good idea too.

You think? Or do you think that being ignorant of it would help with the whole split-religion family thing he's going to have going on.

[Petrocorus]

Let's not forget "Metal and Alloy Chemistry", "Metallic Material's Mechanics", "Thermodynamics and Fire Behaviour", "Warfare Mechanical Engineering".

[brian 333]

Let's see him through kindergarten before we plan for his Ph.D.

[Peelee]

Add me to the people who think you've misread this. It may be easier if you replace "Not want" with "refuse."


Durkon: Ma... do ye refuse ta get yer arm regen'rated fer some reason?
Sigdi: No, it's not that.



It isn't even a hard no, but more "I'll have to think about it."

That....makes me read it exactly the same way, though?

Maybe I just wasn't that great at communicating how I read it.

[Dion]

His momma was a tree hatin’ cleric. His papa was a tree hatin’ cleric. He’s obviously gonna be a dark goth Druid.

[Grey Watcher]

...

Buying a dress for her may seem like a nice thing to do. It robs her choice to live within her means of significance.

...

The two certainly aren't mutually exclusive, but I read her internal logic in that incident as being more along the lines of "it would be unethical to take advantage of you after I brought you back from the dead." She doesn't want to, even accidentally, retroactively turn her decision into a selfish one. So I guess I can see how the two thoughts relate to each other.

Let's see him through kindergarten before we plan for his Ph.D.

Well, he'll never get into an ivy league school with that attitude!

[Dion]

Well, he'll never get into an ivy league school with that attitude!

When you say “Ivy League”, you mean “Druid College”, right?

[KorvinStarmast]

When you say “Ivy League”, you mean “Druid College”, right?

I am trying to remember how different kudzu is from ivy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Ivy is a lot less likely to eat your housing development.

[elbereth]

If Kudzu chooses to be a Druid that will piss off all his parents and grandparent equally.

[Petrocorus]

His momma was a tree hatin’ cleric. His papa was a tree hatin’ cleric. He’s obviously gonna be a dark goth Druid.

Oh yeah!
And with a True Neutral alignment to maximum pissing off of both his parents.
And with an attitude to cast Plant Growth and Tree Shape when bored or angry.

[Grey Watcher]

When you say “Ivy League”, you mean “Druid College”, right?

I am trying to remember how different kudzu is from ivy.

Unintended puns are the best puns.

[Lord Torath]

I am trying to remember how different kudzu is from ivy.

Well, Kudzu is the "love" child of Durkon and Hilgya. Also, adorable.

Ivy is Haley's Aunt (Ian's sister).

[The_Weirdo]

If Kudzu chooses to be a Druid that will piss off all his parents and grandparent equally.

Hilgya's Chaotic and the tree thing seems to be more linked to Thor (with his frying of trees) than to the dwarven culture in general.

Both of those facts make me think that she'd not really mind if Kudzu became a Druid and might even support it as a way to stick it to the man male dwarf. Or at least to Thor and his worshippers anyway. Now, if he became a necromancer, that would be something she'd disagree with, given Loki's views on the undead, but, again, Chaotics tend to respect those choices more often than not.

[diremage]

Because “talking” and “persuading” are two different things?

My soapbox is constructed from my reaction to the following things I believe I’ve seen in this thread:

(1) The idea that the only valid way to say no is an explicit hard no. She said no in a soft and socially polite way. So what? I reject the idea that withholding consent requires a hard no.

(2) The idea that she needs a “rational” reason to say no. Sure, she gave a transparently flimsy excuse. So what? I reject the idea that withholding consent requires a rational reason.

(3) The idea that anyone deserves to “debate” with her on this. Sure, she agreed to keep talking. So what? I reject the idea that withholding consent requires debating anyone else for approval to withhold consent.

Of course, it’s a comic. So, my soapbox is pretty flimsy. But it just seems like a few of the comments on came right out of a 1980’s car salesman guide, instead of an appreciation for how to treat people you love...

Either way, I’m off the soapbox. I’m gonna go eat some kale.

Your ethical premise is that Sigdi's right to determine her own fate is the only consideration that matters here. But not only is that not the only consideration in this question, but she has explicitly said that it's wrong to put her own happiness ahead of the public good. And as a cleric entrusted with the moral laws of his society, as well as being a good and dutiful son, Durkon has an obligation to ensure that Sigdi can continue to serve her society to the fullest extent possible, and Sigdi would be the first one to tell him so.

They both recognize that she needs to let go and let Durkon heal her. She's just not quite ready to take the plunge yet.

To make an absurd counter-example, if Sigdi decided that she was going to cook up some roast Kudzu for dinner, Durkon might try to persuade her politely not to, and even engage her in a formal debate over whether it was ethical to eat her grandchild. But ultimately, there's no way Durkon would let her have her choice of meals.

[Quebbster]

To make an absurd counter-example, if Sigdi decided that she was going to cook up some roast Kudzu for dinner, Durkon might try to persuade her politely not to, and even engage her in a formal debate over whether it was ethical to eat her grandchild. But ultimately, there's no way Durkon would let her have her choice of meals.

Involving a third person in the situation Changes the Dynamics completely. Just saying.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ivy is a lot less likely to eat your housing development.

Ivy covered buildings need to have ivy regularly removed from them because ivy over time will take a toll in the brick/masonary. (I used to pull ivy off of the walls of our house in Virginia every year. Mom had planted some ground cover in the back where grass didn't grow well, and she chose ivy. It liked to climb walls).

But from what little experience I've had with kudzu, at least seeing it covering trees, kudzu grows/spreads/infests faster. It's kinda like the Zerg version of Ivy.

[Draconi Redfir]

i for one look forward to the flash-forward reveling our Gothic-hippie Druid Kudzu raging against the machine and his parents when he's all grown up.

Black flowers and Trees for everyone!