OOTS #1184 - The Discussion Thread

[Resileaf]

A large part of Sigdi's self-image is "my severed arm is perpetually holding on to my husband" so I don't see why the inverse is any less likely.

Her husband died crushed by rocks and there's no guarantee that he knows that his body has held Sigdi's hand like this forever.

[The MunchKING]

Wait... what if it ALL is an illusion, it's been stated that the comic isn't a representation of an actual D&D game of course, but... what if it's a LARP on a starship's Holodeck?! Then when this story ends it can instantly segue into the sci-fi spiritual sequel comic, "Fleet of the Stick"

Full Frontal Nerdity beat you to that one by a few years...

[Fyraltari]

A large part of Sigdi's self-image is "my severed arm is perpetually holding on to my husband" so I don't see why the inverse is any less likely.

Sigdi lived for fifty years without that arm, Tenrin died at the moment it was severed. Sigdi spent fifty years thinking of herself as the woman who's arm is still holding to Tenrin's corpse. Last Tenrin saw of Sigdi she had her arm. If anybody (like Durkon's grnadfather for example) told him that Sigdi refuses to Regenerate her arm out of some weird concept of loyaly to him, he'd probably react the same way Durkon just did.

Well, is there a better reason for a person to intentionally remain disabled?

Apart from "not finacially able to afford the necessary procedures" I don't think there's any good reason to stay disabled when you can not.

Well, as Durkon himself said, if your sacrifice or suffering actually does benefit others in some way, then that would be a better reason.

I just thought Sigdi was more practical than that. People are complicated and all, but like Durkon started to say (and I've said before)-- Durkon became a cleric precisely to restore Sigdi's arm; after all this time and after him being away, if she wants him to be happy, she should let him finish the job he started decades ago.

(I guess we'll come back in 5-7 years and see if he actually does regenerate the arm at the end.)

Seconded.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Save us from the stubbornness of dwarves! I really hope that we do indeed get to see the follow up conversation because I am definitely on Durkon’s side of the argument here.

[RblDiver]

I can see why her mother only sighed...

I think her mother was passive-aggressively wishing for Minrah to stay, find a nice guy, and explore her kid-based options.

[jwhouk]

Do NOT disparage the hot dish!

Casserole. Fer criminy cripes sake, it's a casserole, dere hey.

[Alcore]

1) Roy had already met Sabine.
2) Any number of people who new the blacksmith could enter, or have told Roy that "the local blacksmith is the ginger dwarf who lives two blocks from here".

I garee that the consistant skin tone is Rich giving us hints that it's Sabine, but why wouldn't she change if she could? She bothered to change her height and gender, why not go all the way?

And breaking an established pattern without justifying it is bad storytelling.

Established how? Quote the Giant where he says that Sabine (or succubus in general) can't change skin color. Or even quote someone in the comic saying so. If i could change shape i could keep a few select features of my form. Who says Sabine is any different?


There is no evidence to support she can or can't change skin tone.

There is no evidence to support that the Minrah we see is, in fact, Minrah.



Upholding a pattern simply because the fans expect it to be upheld, while it is not a confirmed pattern, is also bad storytelling.

[Fyraltari]

Established how? Quote the Giant where he says that Sabine (or succubus in general) can't change skin color. Or even quote someone in the comic saying so. If i could change shape i could keep a few select features of my form. Who says Sabine is any different?


There is no evidence to support she can or can't change skin tone.

There is no evidence to support that the Minrah we see is, in fact, Minrah.



Upholding a pattern simply because the fans expect it to be upheld, while it is not a confirmed pattern, is also bad storytelling.

So, I guess it's purely accidental, that Sabine never changed skin color? Is that what you are saying?

[JT]

Established how? Quote the Giant where he says that Sabine (or succubus in general) can't change skin color. Or even quote someone in the comic saying so. If i could change shape i could keep a few select features of my form. Who says Sabine is any different?


There is no evidence to support she can or can't change skin tone.

There is no evidence to support that the Minrah we see is, in fact, Minrah.



Upholding a pattern simply because the fans expect it to be upheld, while it is not a confirmed pattern, is also bad storytelling.

There is evidence that for whatever reason, Sabine -does- not change her skin tone when changing form.
Doesn’t matter if it’s personal preference or a hard limitation on her abilities.


The evidence that Minrah is, in fact, Minrah is that we have not yet, in nearly 1200 strips, been shown where a character impersonates another that completely.

[D.One]

So, I guess it's purely accidental, that Sabine never changed skin color? Is that what you are saying?

What if she does change skin color - and have even changed to match the skin color of the dwarven blacksmith back then - but we, the readers, see all her transformations in the same skin color just to give us a hint that it's her?

In other words, the problem is not that her shapechanging powers have any extra limitation, it's that we have readervision.

[JT]

What if she does change skin color - and have even changed to match the skin color of the dwarven blacksmith back then - but we, the readers, see all her transformations in the same skin color just to give us a hint that it's her?

Then, presumably, Rich would show the Sabine-polymorphed-to-Minrah in Sabine’s skin color, but the characters would all ignore it and think she was Minrah.

(Similar to how no one noticed Nale’s stubble when he was impersonating Elan, but we could all see it.)

[Draconi Redfir]

The girl doesn't want a new arm. why does nobody seem to understand that?

poor Sigdi, nobody listens to her when she says No.

[HorizonWalker]

What if she does change skin color - and have even changed to match the skin color of the dwarven blacksmith back then - but we, the readers, see all her transformations in the same skin color just to give us a hint that it's her?

In other words, the problem is not that her shapechanging powers have any extra limitation, it's that we have readervision.

That's actually pretty plausible; back in War and XPs(between 361 and 399), Nale had a very visible shadow from where he cut off his goatee to help visually reinforce to the reader that this wasn't actually Elan. Of course, it clearly wasn't visible to the Order, otherwise they would've noticed the difference before Nale finally took a dang bath and started smelling different. And then Vaarsuvius had to resort to trickery to tell them apart, rather than just noticing the shadow.

[Doug Lampert]

I was being facetious with my early post, but... this was discussed extensively last thread. We've never seen Sabine assume a form that doesn't match her normal hair and skin tone, even when it would be advantageous to her (i.e. impersonating the blacksmith who sends Roy on the Starmetal quest, who is a pale-skinned redhead in reality). Rich is consistent with these kinds of things, even as far back as the earliest books. To stop using that standard now just for a last-minute plot twist would be all kinds of cheap.

All undead always had black speech bubbles till one deliberately needed to no have a black speech bubble.

Sabine always being the same color is for OUR BENEFIT, it's not significant in world.

Okay, let me try this again: establishing a pattern (like, say a shapeshifter who always keep the same skin tone) creates expectations in your readers, expectations that the pattern will keep going on. It’s basically setting a rule for how the thing works. These rules, whether implicit or explicit are crucial to the readers’ investment because they give a sense of order, it’s a tacit promise that the universe shown is consistent that it will keep on working in ways understood by the readers. Now, one can break the pattern but then, one must explains what differentiates the anomalous situation from the previous ones because if they don’t (or if the explanation is not satisfactory) then the promise is broken, the reader feels like anything can happen, the willing suspension of disbelief is gone. Hence poor storytelling.

The previous cases she had no actual reason to change skin color, now she does since if that were her (which I don't for a minute believe) then she'd be imitating a specific person with a specific skin color, POOF! Explanation for the change.

She has so far CHOSEN not to change color, making a different choice would not be a plot hole.

[Flying Turtle]

Casserole. Fer criminy cripes sake, it's a casserole, dere hey.

Not when I make it with corn, cream of mushroom soup, and tater tots. That, if’n you don’t mind me sayin, is tater tot hot dish.

[Lord Torath]

What if she does change skin color - and have even changed to match the skin color of the dwarven blacksmith back then - but we, the readers, see all her transformations in the same skin color just to give us a hint that it's her?

In other words, the problem is not that her shapechanging powers have any extra limitation, it's that we have readervision.

I quote Nale here in reply: ...that would be pointless and self-indulgent.

Dang it, Psyren, where are you with that fantastic quote in your signature when I need you?

Okay, here it is:

But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?

The assumption that fits with the text is that she doesn't change skin tone when changing form. You can argue against it, but all you've got is personal head cannon to back it up.

[JT]

Not when I make it with corn, cream of mushroom soup, and tater tots. That, if’n you don’t mind me sayin, is tater tot hot dish.

Right!

Random meat, random pasta or tater tots, cream of something soup, bag of frozen corn/peas/beans.

That’s a hot dish!

[Vinsfeld]

I just noticed it..... But why doesn't Minrah talk with a dwarven accent?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Full Frontal Nerdity beat you to that one by a few years...

Knights of the Dinner Table did it a couple decades ago.

[HorizonWalker]

I just noticed it..... But why doesn't Minrah talk with a dwarven accent?

Might've taken diction lessons like Squeaky did.

[The Aboleth]

I haven't read everything yet, so apologies if this has already been said:

I think we're focusing on the wrong "clue" here. The clue that Sabine may come into play is not "[Character] has this skin tone!" The clue is the IFCC saying that Sabine is in the process of retrieving a "vessel" of some sort.

So with that in mind, it's not entirely unreasonable to speculate if a certain character is Sabine in disguise. But saying "This character could be Sabine in disguise!" solely based off a character's skin color is...well, let's just say it's problematic at best, and leave it there.

[Ron Miel]

The evidence that Minrah is, in fact, Minrah is that we have not yet, in nearly 1200 strips, been shown where a character impersonates another that completely.

Other than Sabine completely impersonates the blacksmith, you mean. Or Dave.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I just noticed it..... But why doesn't Minrah talk with a dwarven accent?

You mean the accent only Durkon and his mom use? The better question would be why do they talk with an accent and not Squeaky, Shirra, Logann, High Priestess Rubyrock, Rogo, Tinna, Hilgya, etc.

[Petrocorus]

Established how? Quote the Giant where he says that Sabine (or succubus in general) can't change skin color. Or even quote someone in the comic saying so. If i could change shape i could keep a few select features of my form. Who says Sabine is any different?

There is no evidence to support she can or can't change skin tone.

Totally seconded.

So, I guess it's purely accidental, that Sabine never changed skin color? Is that what you are saying?

The fact that she doesn't do it is not a proof she cannot do it.
As a matter of fact, i've never killed someone. Does this mean it is accidental? Does this mean i cannot kill someone?
Heck, i could kill someone every single day just by being less attentive when i drive home from work on a road full of careless people on scooters.

So far, we know that Sabine does not change skin color when she shapechange. But we have no evidence at all that's because she doesn't want, or because she can't, or because that's a clue for the reader like Nale's stubble.

[happycrow]

Casserole. Fer criminy cripes sake, it's a casserole, dere hey.

A "casserole" would have broccoli miniature trees in it, and no self-respecting dwarf would ever...

[The Aboleth]

I just noticed it..... But why doesn't Minrah talk with a dwarven accent?

Likely a case of a regional or tribal accent/dialect. I'm from the Midwest of the USA, and thus sound very different than someone hailing from Boston even though we're both speaking English. I suspect a similar thing is happening here.

[Larre Gannd]

You mean the accent only Durkon and his mom use? The better question would be why do they talk with an accent and not Squeaky, Shirra, Logann, High Priestess Rubyrock, Rogo, Tinna, Hilgya, etc.

Maybe dwarves from different places.

[Dion]

I am positive the character with Minrah’s shape in the latest comic is not Sabine.

Here is my proof: the character shown with Minrah’s shape in the comic said her mom made her sandwiches. We know Sabine’s mom wouldn’t have made sandwiches, because Sabine’s mother is a demon. Therefore the character shown in the comics wasn’t Sabine.

(The dark skinned dwarve sitting next to Sigdi on the bench may be Sabine, because we do not know if he has sandwiches).

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I am positive the character with Minrah’s shape in the latest comic is not Sabine.

Here is my proof: the character shown with Minrah’s shape in the comic said her mom made her sandwiches. We know Sabine’s mom wouldn’t have made sandwiches, because Sabine’s mother is a demon. Therefore the character shown in the comics wasn’t Sabine.

(The dark skinned dwarve sitting next to Sigdi on the bench may be Sabine, because we do not know if he has sandwiches).

I can't argue with that.

[Arkain]

Likely a case of a regional or tribal accent/dialect. I'm from the Midwest of the USA, and thus sound very different than someone hailing from Boston even though we're both speaking English. I suspect a similar thing is happening here.

Yep. The dwarven council members didn't use any non-standard variation either iirc, so maybe it's a (social) class marker or something else entirely. It's just that for some dwarves eye dialect has been used to draw some attention to it.