[Lore] Resurrection, and Diamonds as Bribes for Psychopomps

[Slipperychicken]

Having been persuaded to play dnd again, I wanted to bounce this idea off of you:

The precious stones consumed in dnd-style resurrection magic are used to bribe psychopomps (i.e. charon, anubis, the grim reaper, valkyries, etc) and entice them to briefly neglect their usual duty by guiding the dead back to their bodies, instead of toward their afterlife. The longer it's been since death, the greater effort/offense it is to return them, and the greater payment is needed to convince the psychopomp.

The idea is to justify the market-value requirements of the stones. If they're being used in a literal exchange of goods and services, then their monetary value (as opposed to physical properties like weight or volume) would be the most relevant to the success of the deal. I base the idea largely on the concept of Charon requiring payment to guide the dead to the greek afterlife, and others being employed to do it as part of an organizational structure. If a psychopomp might take money for its service, or simply does it as part of a job, then it stands to reason that bribery to reverse the service could be possible too.

[Phhase]

You know what, I like that! I really do. It makes sense.

[VoxRationis]

I like the idea, but it does raise a question. Why are diamonds valuable to these entities? The bribe must be valuable to them somehow, or otherwise they wouldn't take it. After all, even if one hates one's job, one probably wouldn't accept an old plastic shopping bag, for example, as a bribe. So therefore, we must ask ourselves why psychopomps are fond of diamonds. Are they useful directly? Is there an economy among celestial beings in which diamonds are currency? If so, what are the goods and services being traded? Is someone charging rent on flats in Mount Olympus? If a broadly acceptable and reasonably standardized currency is in circulation, I think it implies a fairly large body of entities, one too large for favor-trading to function, and also probably implies that there are consistent material needs (the economy puts pressure on actors within it, such that they are more likely to betray principle for economic gain).

Such a concept makes for an interesting take on the gods in a setting. I'm imagining a celestial bureaucracy in the corrupt tail end of a dynastic cycle. A long period of peace, with gods being born or ascending to existence periodically but not dying, has left the divine realm overpopulated. Space in the abode of the gods is at a premium; ambrosia and nectar are in short supply. Social trust has broken down, but faith in the durability of the system is high, so divine beings constantly shirk their duties, believing that the societal effect of their choices is minimal. A culture of corruption pervades heaven and filters through to earth, as the gods' willingness to bend or break the rules in exchange for favors and goods causes their temples to think unduly about matters financial, and to never cease asking for more offerings from the congregations. Cleric spells are a comparatively new matter; the ability of mere mortals to dictate the actions, even in small ways, of the gods is a symptom of the deepening networks of corruption and favor-trading. It used to be that if you merited miraculous healing, you got it, with no need to specifically call on any of the deities. The campaign might revolve around overthrowing the gods to begin the cycle anew, or it might be played for a sort of dark, cynical comedy.

[Kaptin Keen]

I like the idea, but it does raise a question.

It also creates a problem. If Charon is sitting on a pile of diamonds roughly equivalent to every ressurection spell ever cast across the multiverse, it's only a matter of time before the players decide to make it theirs =)

[VoxRationis]

Well, that's what I was saying. Presumably, Charon isn't hoarding diamonds for no reason. Those diamonds go to pay for divine expenses, like boat maintenance, dock registration fees, food, and rent.

[Kelb_Panthera]

On the "why" of the psychopomp being willing to take the bribe;

It's not valuable to them. It's valuable to us and the sacrifice is valuable to them.

Religion and mythology are -rife- with the concept of sacrificing to the divine as a show of piety or appeasement. Enough of a rare stone to buy five common homes or one decent manor-house is a hell of a sacrifice. Even getting a hold of it is pretty substantially non-trivial even if you actually have the gold to buy it with minimal effort. It represents a sacrifice of not just the physical resource but of the not insubstantial psychological and physical effort to acquire the resource as well.

Why diamonds and not some other precious object? Two things; Convention is appealing to lawful gods and even chaotics that aren't purely representatives of change shouldn't have any reason to reject such a convention. Diamonds are, ostensibly, the rarest and most precious of stones so they should be the most difficult to acquire in a large amount (used to be -1- diamond worth 5k). As for what they do with the diamond, raise dead et al aren't teleportation effects. The diamonds are destroyed by the magic, not trasnported by it. You've made it harder for the next guy, if only ever so slightly, to cast the spell.

[Calen]

Maybe the destruction of the diamond makes a path from where the dead soul is to where the body is creating a way for the soul to return to the body. The more disassociated the soul is with the body the more diamond material is required.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, that's what I was saying. Presumably, Charon isn't hoarding diamonds for no reason. Those diamonds go to pay for divine expenses, like boat maintenance, dock registration fees, food, and rent.

Or pleasure. Like letting him build a very nice house, or embellishing his boat as a status symbol (perhaps with an extravagant helm or captain's quarters), and doing all the other expensive things that corrupt officials get to do.

Perhaps he needs a larger boat or bigger ports to carry greater numbers of Hellenistic dead, and the single-coin fee just doesn't go as far as it used to. And what's the harm if one or two souls manage to "sneak" back out on the return-trip once in a while? They'll be back anyway after all.

It's not valuable to them. It's valuable to us and the sacrifice is valuable to them.

This also works for that sort of cosmology. If the sacrifice of such a precious stone feeds worship-energy to the relevant entity, and the soul is more likely going back to the afterlife anyway, then the resurrection may well be a net-positive for the pantheon.

[Eldan]

It also creates a problem. If Charon is sitting on a pile of diamonds roughly equivalent to every ressurection spell ever cast across the multiverse, it's only a matter of time before the players decide to make it theirs =)

I don't know. If my players want to take on a Yugoloth lord to take his stash of diamonds, that says "plot hook" to me, not "problem".

(Thinking of what he needs diamonds for... if we assume that in our cosmology he is the canonical 'loth, I could see something like diamonds being symbols of perfection, or purity and he is in fact corrupting them somehow, or using them as fuel for some even darker magic. Could be a nice twist when the players try to steal his diamonds and he just lets them. Because they are absolutely tainted with corruption, disease, darkness, fear and apathy, all that good Yugoloth magic, and they are spreading them across the material plane for him when they spend them.)

[Knaight]

It also creates a problem. If Charon is sitting on a pile of diamonds roughly equivalent to every ressurection spell ever cast across the multiverse, it's only a matter of time before the players decide to make it theirs =)

Sitting on? What's the point of taking bribes if you're not going to spend them?

[Kaptin Keen]

Sitting on? What's the point of taking bribes if you're not going to spend them?

Well, see - when we enter the realm of metaphysics, that brand of cause and effect becomes exceedingly hazy. What's the point of all those souls you become shepherd of, as a deity? They don't do you a shred of good, they just wander around your domain, enjoying 'their afterlife', but basically just filling up your realm and eating the fruit off your trees.

A planar entity doesn't really have any use, for any thing. We can assume all sorts of stuff, but really, we're just pulling that out of thin air - making it up as it suits us. Demons don't eat souls, deities gain nothing from petitioners, maruts gain zip from enforcing lawfulness .. and Charon doesn't have the slightest thing to spend his diamonds on.

So ... we can answer that question, no sweat. But it's not the discussion we're having here.

You want an answer. Here's one I just made up: In the end, we all pay the ferryman. Even .. the ferryman. At the end of time, when all things end, Charon will need to pay for his own passage. What, you think? How does that even work, you ask?

Well, it's like this: Every ending is also a new beginning. What Charon is able to pay himself at the end of time provides for his passage into the next infinity, and determines his position there. It's not so much that he takes it with him - but more that his placement on the karmic wheel is determined by how well he did his Charon'ing. As measured out by his pile of diamonds.

[False God]

Well, in one of the sillier Batman movies, Mr Freeze used diamonds to power his suit. Not just as a focus crystal (which he did too) but as power. Souls function as currency and power sources to various demons/devils, it's reasonable that souls function the same for other spiritual beings (the good ones just don't talk about it). Certain mythologies hold that gems have particular spiritual energies. Perhaps diamonds of the appropriate value provides spiritual beings with a soul-like power. Close enough to "call it even" at least.

[Spore]

Often D&D material components are derived from their meaning in esoteric culture. Diamonds are healing crystals, and thus probably very useful to psychopomps. Maybe they power healing spells for clerics who worship them but not "proper" gods with a divine spark.

I don't know. If my players want to take on a Yugoloth lord to take his stash of diamonds, that says "plot hook" to me, not "problem".

Throw in a few green hags too, as they make probably a good bunch of minions for it. I loved this video about them. Suddenly stealing the diamonds also prevents the hags from creating an ultroloth or work as currency for the green hag's heartstones.