Unearthed Arcana 11/4

[Waterdeep Merch]

Weird use of all this with an otherwise useless old subclass-

Go new ranger first, at least two levels. Cap your Strength at character creation, get a 14 Dex if you can. High Con and Wis are optional but a good idea. 15/14/13/9/13/8 would be my run of it in point buy, adjust as needed for your race, get that Strength to a 16. Grab Unarmed Fighting Style, Canny under Deft Explorer with Athletics expertise.

Now jump into barbarian for at least five levels. Go ahead and take Primal Instincts, this will give you a ton of versatility out of combat. Then comes the weird part- go Battlerager. Yes, Battlerager, that really underwhelming subclass from SCAG that nobody even remembers.

Everything's online where you want at level 7. You can go straight barbarian for 5 levels first if you're worried about viability early, or ranger to 5 and barbarian to 3 if you like that mix (I do). Just make sure you get Extra Attack.

When raging, your grapples are done at +10 with advantage when you first get all this up and deals 1d4+3 upon first contact. Your supreme noogies are dealing 1d6+1d4+6 per attack, with an extra 1d6 if you got Hunter's Mark off before you started wrasslin'. Plus a 2d4+6 (1d6 extra for Hunter's Mark!) bonus action attack! On the first turn you start doing this, your damage is around 28.5 (35.5 with Mark) with a grapple that you almost cannot fail, and the same applies to your Reckless'd attacks. On subsequent turns against the same target, you're looking at 34 (44.5 with Mark) as you grind them against your mammoth, spiked chest. At level 7.

8 if you decided you wanted to head ranger 5 first for smoother progression.

Now just get an ally to cast Enlarge on you for the really big fights!

[Sception]

Paladin
Blessed Warrior is incredibly good, as it nullifies the need for multi-classing for ranged attacks. Oh and who thought that adding another smite per short rest was a good idea, seriously that is extremely deadly (Harness Divine Power)?.

Harness Divine Power uses your channel divinity. Most oaths already have channel divinities that are significantly better than a first level spell slot, whether used for spells or smiting, so I don't personally see it as a significant increase in the class's deadliness. Mostly it's just an outlet to get at least some use out of your channel divinity in case your party takes a short rest before you've found a use for your normal options. And I guess a valid use for a CD for the one or two oaths that do lack a decent option there, but even in that case where it is an upgrade, I'd still say that's completely reasonable.

[Theaitetos]

Further, this brings to mind a few issues I have that they didn't touch on. If choices that used to be immutable completely, like Fighting Styles and Cantrips, or mostly immutable for only on level up, like Spells for "known" casters, I wonder if that means they'd be more open to adding Metamagic to be less immutable. Changing on level up at least, though a long rest swap doesn't seem too entirely out of place.

Yes:

My thoughts not covered by other thoughtful posts is that sorcerer now definitely need to get more metamagic, 4 over 20 levels is nowhere near enough, for most games it’s really 3.
Particularly the elemental metamagic is basically almost a requirement for nearly all sorcerer builds.

I think it's OK to have the last metamagic as a "capstone", but they could make the metamagics exchangeable whenever you get a new one. Twinned is really strong with low-level spells, but the increasing sorcery point costs makes it less efficient with high-level spells, so being able to change it would make you more likely to take it early as one of the first metamagics.

Lastly, with the thought of Warlocks just flat getting spells to their spell list that were on their subclasses expanded lists, I wonder if they'll change the way Warlocks work from their subclass spells, too. To my knowledge, all sources of extra spells are actually extra spells, and not just "expanded" options. Cleric domains, Paladin oaths, Ranger magic from subclasses (and the new version of Primal Awareness spells), Land Druid circle spells, they outright make them not count as spells known/prepared. Why is Warlock left out the loop? With the fact that Greater Invisibility could be added to the standard list, it being on the Archfey's "expanded" list is now a dud.

Agreed.

Sorcerers changing their spell loadout on long rests feels off. I always figured each arcane caster had a special trick that the others don't: Wizards can reconfigure themselves daily, Warlocks can recharge on a short rest, and Sorcerers can tweak their magic on the fly, both the spell slots (Sorcery Points) and the spells themselves (Metamagic). (That Bards don't have any such edge over the others in spellcasting itself represents their somewhat less specialized nature.) Giving "reconfigure on long rest" to Sorcerers feels like breaking that distinction to me. But this is probably just me projecting something onto the design that wasn't intended, so I guess... whatever?

I thought it was strong at first too, but upon thinking it over I changed my mind: Exchanging a single spell for another spell of the same level isn't exactly a "reconfigure". When you realize there's a lot of fire enemies coming tomorrow you can for example change Firebolt to Ray of Frost or Fireball to Lightningbolt, but not both and this is it. A wizard can still rain on your parade with all the cold/lightning/thunder/… spells he has prepared for today.

there's not a strong basis for a 'thrower' in fantasy fiction

Spoiler

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[Belac93]

Important New Monk Clarification:

The new monk weapons ability doesn't give you automatic proficiency like the Kenshi does. You have to already have proficiency in a weapon to take it as a monk weapon.

This does not let your average monk use a longsword or battleaxe as a monk weapon, unless they're multiclassing or are an elf.

I've seen so many people making this mistake.

[Willie the Duck]

Thrown weapons generally ARE less effective than bows, crossbows, slings, etc -- it's a simple matter of mechanical advantages.

Yeah I'm in the minority that think that a 'weapon-thrower' archetype is super stupid and shouldn't be supported as a primary playstyle. Every edition that has had it its been cheesy and goofy as heck, and there's not a strong basis for a 'thrower' in fantasy fiction. At most you will sometimes have a knife-juggler sort, and rogue knife-throwers already work just fine mechanically.

Well, yes, but 'unarmed guy who fights with/against armed guy' or 'swashbuckler alongside knights in plate mail' are also 'cheesy and goofy' (by which I assume is close to 'laughably unrealistic, if you think about it') except that there are people who want to play that archetype.

[Throne12]

I like they add new fighting styles but I wish they add a fighting style for Versatile weapons.

[Sigreid]

Important New Monk Clarification:

The new monk weapons ability doesn't give you automatic proficiency like the Kenshi does. You have to already have proficiency in a weapon to take it as a monk weapon.

This does not let your average monk use a longsword or battleaxe as a monk weapon, unless they're multiclassing or are an elf.

I've seen so many people making this mistake.

Maybe, but I already will let players work with me on their weapon proficiencies and monk weapons. I dont consider it a problem.

[Reevh]

...I know it was obvious from the beginning, but why the hate about Paladins getting Spirit Guardians?

For starters; as mentioned, the Oath of the Crown Paladin has both Warding Bond and Spirit Guardians (and also Guardian of the Faith). At no moment I hear the Oath of the Crown being absurdly broken; in fact, it's usually the opposite. The only thing I can take now is that you can combine Spirit Guardians with the Oath of the Ancients' Aura of Warding or the Oath of Conquest's Aura of Conquest.

I mean: sure, Spirit Guardians is a pretty awesome spell, since it combines a form of Lockdown (reduced mobility) with decent DoT, all on a package that prevents friendly fire. Thematically, making it a Cleric spell seems a bit...odd? After all, you do expect a Cleric to be on the frontlines, but not as a frontliner; instead, it either heals or delivers divine wrath through spells (like Flame Strike, or Dawn...and I don't see people bothered that the Paladin got those) Paladins, on the other hand, have competition for their spell slots, in particular Smites, but also actual spells that are either part of the Cleric spell list (Bless), crossed over (Aura of Vitality, which is 3rd level) or are unique to the Paladin (Crusader's Mantle), all of which require concentration.

Speaking from personal experience, but I've rarely used Spirit Guardians as a Life Cleric. I used it only ONCE, when I was surrounded by a group of Yuan-Ti, and coupled with Divine Strike and high AC it was great. After that...I've barely been surrounded by people, ever (mostly because I stay behind, mostly because the Monk usually goes first and has stellar defenses, and mostly because I think the DM only seeks to surround me when everyone else is dead and I'm out of spells, probably because of Spirit Guardians). So...yeah, I can see its utility, but I'd expect to see the spell in use with a proper frontliner, and the Paladin does that.

And yeah: I understand that people here consider the Paladin is TOO strong, but by making them one-trick ponies (essentially, by spending all their spell slots on Smites; hence, the comment of "why give the Paladin a short-rest rechargeable smite?", particularly since that's the secondary purpose of MC'ing into Warlock). Considering that ALL of their spell slots are essentially meant to become Smites, wouldn't adding them any other spell turn redundant?

In short: while I'm aware of the general thought of what makes Paladins...strong? OP? ...I don't see the addition of Spirit Guardians as something that will snap the game in half. (And the comment I made was because of Warding Bond, because of course that's my favorite spell that I haven't used with the Cleric.) Or the ability to Harness Divine Power - after all, either you use your CD, or you don't, and I presume something like Guided Strike will be used a lot more than recovering spell slots.



True, but it makes you think about what invocations to add, instead of just going Agonizing Blast automatically. The Tomelock invocations are actually pretty cool, and makes the Book of Shadows have a lot more flavor than just a glorified spellbook.

The ability to do 3d8 radiant damage (and still does half on a save) in a fairly large AOE every round for up to 10 rounds while also slowing your enemies for the cost of only a level 3 spell slot is an incredibly powerful spell, balanced by the relatively low damage of other cleric spells. When you put a spell that powerful on a class like the Paladin who already has some of the best damage in the game and incredible utility, and by the way, superior concentration saves thanks to their aura, it's too much. I'd argue it's too much on the Oath of the Crown too.

Compare a Spirit Guardians to a fireball. A fireball does 8d6 damage, an average of 28, in a slightly larger area, but hits your friends and it's a damage type that's one of the most likely to be resisted. Spirit Guardians does 3d8, which is 13.5 average damage, so after only two rounds it has almost done enough damage to catch up with fireball, and it has the ability to move with the character, and is a damage type that's exceedingly unlikely to be resisted. I've had combats where I did 8 rounds of Spirit Guardians damage on my Forge Cleric. And once you cast it, you don't have to use any further actions to continue to do that damage as you chase enemies around the battlefield.

On a cleric, you pair that with maybe a Toll the Dead and a Spiritual Weapon. Powerful when all taken together? Yes. But a paladin can deal great weapon damage, boosted by improved divine smite and divine smite. Plus you're a freaking paladin.

[Reevh]

Harness Divine Power uses your channel divinity. Most oaths already have channel divinities that are significantly better than a first level spell slot, whether used for spells or smiting, so I don't personally see it as a significant increase in the class's deadliness. Mostly it's just an outlet to get at least some use out of your channel divinity in case your party takes a short rest before you've found a use for your normal options. And I guess a valid use for a CD for the one or two oaths that do lack a decent option there, but even in that case where it is an upgrade, I'd still say that's completely reasonable.

Yeah, I'm currently playing a conquest paladin. No way it's worth giving up a 30 foot AoE fear effect for a level 1 spell slot. Unless I'm about to short rest anyway.

[Throne12]

Thrown weapons generally ARE less effective than bows, crossbows, slings, etc -- it's a simple matter of mechanical advantages.

Ya but your forgetting javelins and spears. They suck if you wanted to play that way. There are many examples of javelin or spear thrower.

[Hytheter]

I can't speak for all of them, but a lot of those examples aren't really doing thrown weapons as their primary shtick. Batman isn't all about batarangs, he's a punchy guy who occasionally throws batarangs. Leonidas is more of a formation fighter than a javelin thrower (and the scene that GIF is from is noteworthy for the fact that he basically misses and dies shortly afterwards). Link is something of a generalist but he favours the sword and bow, and it's not like he uses the boomerang for sustained rate of fire. Thor only throws because he has a magic weapon that enables it. :P

Throwing stuff is part of their kit but I wouldn't exactly call them thrown-weapon fighters.

Not that I think that's a reason to dismiss the concept altogether.

[Waterdeep Merch]

The ability to do 3d8 radiant damage (and still does half on a save) in a fairly large AOE every round for up to 10 rounds while also slowing your enemies for the cost of only a level 3 spell slot is an incredibly powerful spell, balanced by the relatively low damage of other cleric spells. When you put a spell that powerful on a class like the Paladin who already has some of the best damage in the game and incredible utility, and by the way, superior concentration saves thanks to their aura, it's too much. I'd argue it's too much on the Oath of the Crown too.

Compare a Spirit Guardians to a fireball. A fireball does 8d6 damage, an average of 28, in a slightly larger area, but hits your friends and it's a damage type that's one of the most likely to be resisted. Spirit Guardians does 3d8, which is 13.5 average damage, so after only two rounds it has almost done enough damage to catch up with fireball, and it has the ability to move with the character, and is a damage type that's exceedingly unlikely to be resisted. I've had combats where I did 8 rounds of Spirit Guardians damage on my Forge Cleric. And once you cast it, you don't have to use any further actions to continue to do that damage as you chase enemies around the battlefield.

On a cleric, you pair that with maybe a Toll the Dead and a Spiritual Weapon. Powerful when all taken together? Yes. But a paladin can deal great weapon damage, boosted by improved divine smite and divine smite. Plus you're a freaking paladin.

Up front damage is more valuable than damage over time, on account of not being hit by a dying creature. And while Spirit Guardians is no doubt great, paladins have very few spell slots to take advantage of it, and their amazing smites are diminished every time you have to use a higher level spell slot like this. Chances are good that any player using Spirit Guardians isn't going to be smiting much during that combat, as SG is an attrition spell while smites decidedly are not.

[Protolisk]

Thrown weapons generally ARE less effective than bows, crossbows, slings, etc -- it's a simple matter of mechanical advantages.

A bonus, however, is that they don't need a feat to effectively fight in melee compared to shooters.

[malachi]

The ability to do 3d8 radiant damage (and still does half on a save) in a fairly large AOE every round for up to 10 rounds while also slowing your enemies for the cost of only a level 3 spell slot is an incredibly powerful spell, balanced by the relatively low damage of other cleric spells. When you put a spell that powerful on a class like the Paladin who already has some of the best damage in the game and incredible utility, and by the way, superior concentration saves thanks to their aura, it's too much. I'd argue it's too much on the Oath of the Crown too.

Compare a Spirit Guardians to a fireball. A fireball does 8d6 damage, an average of 28, in a slightly larger area, but hits your friends and it's a damage type that's one of the most likely to be resisted. Spirit Guardians does 3d8, which is 13.5 average damage, so after only two rounds it has almost done enough damage to catch up with fireball, and it has the ability to move with the character, and is a damage type that's exceedingly unlikely to be resisted. I've had combats where I did 8 rounds of Spirit Guardians damage on my Forge Cleric. And once you cast it, you don't have to use any further actions to continue to do that damage as you chase enemies around the battlefield.

On a cleric, you pair that with maybe a Toll the Dead and a Spiritual Weapon. Powerful when all taken together? Yes. But a paladin can deal great weapon damage, boosted by improved divine smite and divine smite. Plus you're a freaking paladin.

Spirit Guardians is a 3rd level spell. Paladins get it at lvl 9.
At level 9, both clerics and wizards have 5th level spells, which includes Dawn (4d10 radiant, save for half, can move w/in 60 ft of you as a BA). Alternately, the cleric's casting it for 5d8 dmg.

Wis save or 3d8 from the Paladin vs Con save or 4d10 from the cleric (and doesn't need to be in the thick of melee).
OR
Wis save or 3d8 from the Paladin vs Wis save or 5d8 from the cleric.

EDIT:

A bonus, however, is that they don't need a feat to effectively fight in melee compared to shooters.

Pulling out a rapier in your right hand while holding your bow in the left costs a feat?

[Ravinsild]

The ability to do 3d8 radiant damage (and still does half on a save) in a fairly large AOE every round for up to 10 rounds while also slowing your enemies for the cost of only a level 3 spell slot is an incredibly powerful spell, balanced by the relatively low damage of other cleric spells. When you put a spell that powerful on a class like the Paladin who already has some of the best damage in the game and incredible utility, and by the way, superior concentration saves thanks to their aura, it's too much. I'd argue it's too much on the Oath of the Crown too.

Compare a Spirit Guardians to a fireball. A fireball does 8d6 damage, an average of 28, in a slightly larger area, but hits your friends and it's a damage type that's one of the most likely to be resisted. Spirit Guardians does 3d8, which is 13.5 average damage, so after only two rounds it has almost done enough damage to catch up with fireball, and it has the ability to move with the character, and is a damage type that's exceedingly unlikely to be resisted. I've had combats where I did 8 rounds of Spirit Guardians damage on my Forge Cleric. And once you cast it, you don't have to use any further actions to continue to do that damage as you chase enemies around the battlefield.

On a cleric, you pair that with maybe a Toll the Dead and a Spiritual Weapon. Powerful when all taken together? Yes. But a paladin can deal great weapon damage, boosted by improved divine smite and divine smite. Plus you're a freaking paladin.

This is a valid point, however I would argue 3rd level spell slots are a far more precious commodity for half-casters than full casters. You have like 2 at level 10 and there's a LOT of tasty spells aside from this you can pull from.... As a Paladin it's a hard choice due to limited slots what to cast, and almost all their spells seem like concentration, and these only come back on a long rest. It's a weighty decision, not just something you can shoot from the hip willy nilly.

I can't speak for all of them, but a lot of those examples aren't really doing thrown weapons as their primary shtick. Batman isn't all about batarangs, he's a punchy guy who occasionally throws batarangs. Leonidas is more of a formation fighter than a javelin thrower (and the scene that GIF is from is noteworthy for the fact that he basically misses and dies shortly afterwards). Link is something of a generalist but he favours the sword and bow, and it's not like he uses the boomerang for sustained rate of fire. Thor only throws because he has a magic weapon that enables it. :P

Throwing stuff is part of their kit but I wouldn't exactly call them thrown-weapon fighters.

Not that I think that's a reason to dismiss the concept altogether.

Well did you look at any of my examples?

[Theaitetos]

*nod*, like a bracer that creates +1 daggers which poof at the end of the turn if you aren't holding them.

All it would require is changing the warlock's Pact of the Blade summon from action to bonus action (homebrew?): Throw weapon (action), dismiss it (already no action required), summon it (bonus action). Since you can make any weapon your pact weapon, you can use a hammer or trident or dagger… and you have a great thrower.

Speaking of warlocks, I really like the new Pact of the Talisman, but I think it's still too weak compared to the other pact boons. They should definitely add some features (either without invocation, added to other invocations, or rarely as an invocation) to make it scalable with level and versatile in application, for example:

• functions as a spellcasting focus
• creature wearing it is a valid target for your spells, even while outside regular spell range/sight
• creature wearing it is a valid target for your spells with "range: self" (like Shield or Absorb Elements)
• replace d4 rolls on throws/checks with "your proficiency" or "your spellcasting modifier"
• magic item enhancement (storing additional charges for your wands, rings, …)
• copy magic item feature of a (common/uncommon/…) item depending on your level
• "phylactery" applications (Gift of the Protectors & Far Scribe invocations, or revive wearer even without body or diamonds)

[Reevh]

Up front damage is more valuable than damage over time, on account of not being hit by a dying creature. And while Spirit Guardians is no doubt great, paladins have very few spell slots to take advantage of it, and their amazing smites are diminished every time you have to use a higher level spell slot like this. Chances are good that any player using Spirit Guardians isn't going to be smiting much during that combat, as SG is an attrition spell while smites decidedly are not.

A level 3 divine smite does 4d8 damage. 8d8 when used on a crit. You'd have to hit 2 enemies to do 6d8 with a Spirit Guardians in the first round. If there are 3 enemies, and there probably are if you're using Spirit Guardians, you'll beat out that Divine Smite's damage in one round, without having to hope for a crit. Generally speaking it will last more than one round, and ultimately do a lot more than that Divine Smite. It's seriously worth NOT Diving Smiting so that you can use this, unless a particularly bad boss has to die _right now_. I'm not saying those situations don't come up, but Spirit Guardians lasts for a minute. You don't have to cast very many of them in an adventuring day for it to be an extremely potent spell. Too potent for a paladin, imo.

[Zalabim]

You may have accurately predicted the timing of this UA, but I'm been foretelling the coming of alternate class features for every class for literally years. Still feels a bit smaller in scope than I envisioned.
For my direct comments
Barbarian: Instinctive Pounce can be triggered by allied movement as well. Seems useful for a more tactically minded barbarian, so the name feels very off to me. I'm generally surprised they didn't come up with any other improved, modified, or alternate options for things like Feral Instinct, Reckless Attacks (what about games that use flanking?), and Brutal Critical.

Bard: Magical inspiration feels a little inappropriate, as adding damage to Attacks is a valor bard special, and adding damage to area damage rolls is quite a bit more powerful. Adding the die to healing is also awkward because it requires someone else to cast the healing spell. I think this one is a miss for theme, if not for power.

Cleric: A lot of people overlook that Blessed Strikes works on any spell, and not just cantrips. It is limited to just one enemy per your turn, but it can be triggered by damage you deal off-turn. It's a solid competitor with the existing feature.

Druid: I'm actually fine with Wild Companion. Giving it Wild Shape's duration makes it feel a lot fairer than just free Find Familiar, which is the impression I started with.

Fighter: Ability check maneuvers are all fine. Bait and Switch feels like a reach for where to put the die result, but I like the maneuver. Might make more sense as a general movement option. Brace does need the wording cleaned up, but i like the image of it. Snipe should be renamed Cheap Shot. It's also incredible, probably inappropriate as it allows a bonus action attack with no care for what you use your Action on. On the one hand, that's a great evolution from 'berserker is strong because frenzy doesn't require you to attack.' On the same hand, draw and throw a net as a bonus action before or after you whatever you want. I don't mind giving up the bonus damage die for that. Cheap. Shot. In fact:

Cheap Shot:As a bonus action, you can expend one superiority die and make a weapon attack. You can draw a weapon as part of making this attack. If you hit, add the superiority die to the attack’s damage roll.

Monk: Picking monk weapons opens up for racial monks, multiclassed monks, and even monks with darts and slings as monk weapons (like my halfling monk would totally take.) Still have to be a kensei to use longbows, as well as a bunch of other good features later on.

Ki-fueled Strike is good for shadows, four elements, long death capstone (which honestly still costs too much ki), and the new ability too, though... Quickened Healing I love not for active use but for increased passive healing. Take multiple short rests to channel your Ki into recovery, much like the fighter's second wind. Theme feels great and I don't care if someone never actually uses it. Feedback also combines with the new channel divinity as a dump for short rest abilities into a longer-term resource if you rest with resources left over, even though it's probably only 1 or 2 HP per ki.

Paladin: No additional comments.

Ranger: Deft Explorer is fine if the replacement for Favored Enemy is good. Canny is fine, but I'd like the ranger to have more than one expertise over time and it seems like that's something that could be added to each feature. I.E. Canny: You get one more skill, two more languages, and expertise for one of your skills. Roving: You get +5 speed, climbing, swimming, and expertise for one of your skills. Tireless: You get temp hp, faster exhaustion recovery, and expertise for one of your skills.

Primal Awareness is solid, though I suspect only one free cast of detect magic will feel weird and having to spend slots to cast more to be painful. Ritual Casting is the normal solution but maybe doesn't fit here?

Part of what the replacement for Favored Enemy lacks is an improvement to cover level 6/14. Earlier benefits from wisdom at least helps the mechanics of Foe Slayer look useful, but it still needs a reasonable target acquisition to keep it. More than just ranger capstone could use alternatives anyway.

Beast of the Earth feels a little undertuned compared to the Beast of the Air that covers most anything you'd want in a flying companion. It can deal more damage on a charge, but has lower attack bonus, lower AC and no other ability like grapple/restrain, swallow, disengage, reach, etc. It's not as good a skirmisher, nor as good at stand-and-fighting.

Rogue: I like the trade-off/option for Aim. It feels right.

Sorcerer: Font of magic options are fine, but I think it's still missing something interesting for level 2. Metamagic options are fine, but they do need more picks to justify taking the lesser metamagics. I still think a variant where sorcerers learn more spells instead of picking metamagic and have metamagic spells on their spell list would be ok.

About Sorcerer Spell Versatility in particular: What about making that a Font of Magic option instead/also?

Warlock: I love the book of names-based invocations. I like the talisman pact boon. I approve of Eldritch Armor, and see Eldritch Mind right next to it as very fitting. It helps dodge the incentive to take pact of the blade for better AC and ignoring the weapon, since there's similar combat invocations for all pacts. Eldritch Armor lets any race jump to heavy armor proficiency, but still requires strength to not be slowed, or the medium armor races can still take the half-feat for heavily armored, but the best part is that Eldritch Armor does not give shield proficiency. That's the other part of not incentivizing taking it just for AC+EB that most suggestions jump right into. I still think pact of the blade itself could get a small bonus towards using the weapon before invocations, especially with the Pact of the give-it-away Talisman. I really like each of the new invocations.

Wizard: Much like the UA, I'm including this but not saying much.

Fighting Styles: All good, except as mentioned below.

Unarmed Fighting is 1d6 because 1d4 is less than dueling's +2 damage, and then +1d4 damage on/when grappling is a nice touch to the brawler style, but dueling+grappling would deal 1d8+2 damage already. Shield plus unarmed grappling does 1d6+1d4 with +2 AC, worth it for the shield, but does only work while grappling. The dueling style can pick up a shield in a no-grappling fight, but the unarmed master is kinda stuck with it. 1d8 when using both hands is even more unarmed damage, but also means no shield (and not currently grappling), and +1 damage is not really worth -2 AC, is it? I think that makes it the worst use of two free hands and a fighting style in combat, under-taking the previous winner, TWF. It's more of a consolation prize than a real threat to the monk's E-peen ego.

Now hopefully I've said enough. I read all the spell stuff, but really don't care about all the spell stuff. Here's my quote responses.

Have to say, I really don't like what they did with the favored foe. Hunter's mark is decent, I guess, but I'd much rather they simply allow the ranger to change their favored enemy on a long or short rest. (For their text: "This would be representative of the ranger taking the time to study the enemy before the fight, and preparing to focus on that creature's weakness")

The rest of the ranger is good.

The problem with this is that Favored Enemy doesn't otherwise do anything. I'm not sold on the free Hunter's Mark either. It's fine, but I think there's still something better out there.

We've brought up what a huge buff the Elemental Spell metamagic is to the Investiture spells, but we need to think about how they actually interact.

My assumption is that the metamagic can only be applied when the spell is cast (based on rulings around other metamagics)...so you could cast an Investiture of Fire spell metamagicked to do Lightning Damage instead of fire, but you have to make that call and spend the SP up-front...you could not decide halfway into the duration of the spell that now I would like to spend 1SP and do acid damage, thank you very much.

Also, all aspects of the spell that are dependent on a damage type would have to be applied consistently. So, again using investiture of flame as an example, you are now immune to lightning damage and resistant to cold, enemies take lightning damage when they approach, and you can shoot a line of lightning. You could not pick and choose.

I'm struggling to come up with another spell that has multiple aspects that tie into a particular elemental damage type, but presumably there might be some, and these limits would apply there, too.

This sound like a reasonable reading of the spell/metamagic interactions?

The strictest read is actually that you can only apply the metamagic when you cast a spell that does damage when you cast the spell. In any case, only the type of damage dealt changes, not any other instance of the element keyword.

The biggest problem is simply the fact that it's almost strictly inferior to using a projectile weapon. +1 damage closes the gap between the damage, and free drawing of the weapons solves that issue, but projectile weapons still have better range, better feat support, +2 to attack rolls (because the thrower uses his fighting style just for damage and action efficiency parity) and thrown weapons have the same problem with magic weapons that dual wielders do, but exponentially worse. Snipe does nothing to make this comparison any more favorable because projectile users get to use it too.

The bonus from the fighting style is clearly too small at just +1 damage just on thrown attacks. That said, actually using throwing weapons has a few options going for it. It can use TWF, so you can get a bonus action attack with no other class features, and they can be used one-handed so you can use a shield and make ranged attacks. They're also often equally effective in melee range (with the notable exception of Darts, but not Nets. Nets are equally effective in melee =P)

Yeah I'm in the minority that think that a 'weapon-thrower' archetype is super stupid and shouldn't be supported as a primary playstyle. Every edition that has had it its been cheesy and goofy as heck, and there's not a strong basis for a 'thrower' in fantasy fiction. At most you will sometimes have a knife-juggler sort, and rogue knife-throwers already work just fine mechanically.

I dare you to say that to Norman, the greatest warrior alive, once known as Thor, and at another time (if my memory doesn't deceive me) "the Hurler." If Mighty Max is too obscure, then let's just say I want this for my warrior that is as strong of arm as he is weak of stomach.

[Lupine]

Don't think anyone brought it up yet:

One of the absolute best things about this UA is the change to Fighting Style.

The fact that you can swap your fighting style when you level up is absolutely HUGE.

I like the idea of being able to switch proficiency much more. It allows the players to modify for what the DM is doing, rather than the other way around.

[Kane0]

Thinking about my current party, now at level 5:

Zealot Barbarian: No real changes, she's not going to be using either option.
Trickery Cleric: She actually uses Duplicity pretty often (because i'm lenient in what it can do) so I don't see CD being used much but she's going to love those spells and blessed strikes (she uses Sacred Flame and a crossbow in equal amounts).
Dragon Sorcerer: Will probably look at Elemental spell because he's a pyromaniac, and will definitely abuse the **** out of Empowering Reserves when seducing random NPCs. The rest will probably be skipped over.
Beastmaster Ranger: He's a traditionalist, but this has the potential to shake everything up for him. Assuming he even reads the doc I don't think he will give up his fighting style, but he's going to be very tempted by Deft Explorer and Favored Foe. The extra spells would interest him the most, and the new companion is an instant take.
Ancients Paladin: Probably won't opt for cantrips but CD for a 1st level slot is a no brainer, especially since he has Entangling Strike.

Speaking of warlocks, I really like the new Pact of the Talisman, but I think it's still too weak compared to the other pact boons. They should definitely add some features (either without invocation, added to other invocations, or rarely as an invocation) to make it scalable with level and versatile in application, for example:

• functions as a spellcasting focus
• creature wearing it is a valid target for your spells, even while outside regular spell range/sight
• creature wearing it is a valid target for your spells with "range: self" (like Shield or Absorb Elements)
• replace d4 rolls on throws/checks with "your proficiency" or "your spellcasting modifier"
• magic item enhancement (storing additional charges for your wands, rings, …)
• copy magic item feature of a (common/uncommon/…) item depending on your level
• "phylactery" applications (Gift of the Protectors & Far Scribe invocations, or revive wearer even without body or diamonds)

Some great ideas here I must say. I reckon you could add the casting focus functionality to the base boon and make at least three invocations (target for self spells, function as magic item, 'phylactery applications').

[Waterdeep Merch]

A level 3 divine smite does 4d8 damage. 8d8 when used on a crit. You'd have to hit 2 enemies to do 6d8 with a Spirit Guardians in the first round. If there are 3 enemies, and there probably are if you're using Spirit Guardians, you'll beat out that Divine Smite's damage in one round, without having to hope for a crit. Generally speaking it will last more than one round, and ultimately do a lot more than that Divine Smite. It's seriously worth NOT Diving Smiting so that you can use this, unless a particularly bad boss has to die _right now_. I'm not saying those situations don't come up, but Spirit Guardians lasts for a minute. You don't have to cast very many of them in an adventuring day for it to be an extremely potent spell. Too potent for a paladin, imo.

Oh, I'm not saying it's a bad spell at all, it's a very nice spell when the situation warrants it. Just that 4d8+your weapon damage twice up front (plus another smite if you want it) is going to be better than Spirit Guardians if it kills a creature immediately where Spirit Guardians wouldn't for the three rounds it would take to equal the same. Getting to spread that damage is only useful if it can kill the entire room off faster than you could otherwise manage it by going creature-to-creature, and the problem is more obvious if all of those creatures are attacking you while you're busy trying to kill them all at the same time versus one less striking you and the party each round as you knock them off.

The damage isn't why you cast Spirit Guardians. You might as well smite if that's what you're after.

[Gignere]

Oh, I'm not saying it's a bad spell at all, it's a very nice spell when the situation warrants it. Just that 4d8+your weapon damage twice up front (plus another smite if you want it) is going to be better than Spirit Guardians if it kills a creature immediately where Spirit Guardians wouldn't for the three rounds it would take to equal the same. Getting to spread that damage is only useful if it can kill the entire room off faster than you could otherwise manage it by going creature-to-creature, and the problem is more obvious if all of those creatures are attacking you while you're busy trying to kill them all at the same time versus one less striking you and the party each round as you knock them off.

The damage isn't why you cast Spirit Guardians. You might as well smite if that's what you're after.

Just one quibble on your fascinating debate SG lasts 10 minutes not 1 minute. You can if you’re a bit reckless or already mapped out the lair/stronghold/dungeon (arcane eye ftw) use one spell slot for a few maybe even every fight of a dungeon crawl.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Just one quibble on your fascinating debate SG lasts 10 minutes not 1 minute. You can if you’re a bit reckless or already mapped out the lair/stronghold/dungeon (arcane eye ftw) use one spell slot for a few maybe even every fight of a dungeon crawl.

It's not bad, but as you mentioned, risky. When you first get this option (level 9), you can cast this spell a grand total of twice a day. That's 20 minutes, assuming you don't lose concentration. You'll get a lot of mileage out of it, but you're also giving up your best nova attacks to soften up targets in a handful of encounters. Which can be a good idea if:

1.) You have another party member doing something similar. Maybe not a constant effect like it, but some way of spreading lots of AoE damage around you to take advantage of the softened HP.
2.) You're of a much, much higher level and thus a level 3 spell slot doesn't actually mean much anymore. I'd say when you first get access to 5th level at 17, but it really depends on how confident you are about resource management.
3.) You desperately need the area denial that SG represents, which is the real reason most people cast it in the first place.

Spirit Guardians halves the speed of any enemies that enter it or start their turns there. This is an important distinction, since they aren't under the effects of any difficult terrain. If you are in a situation with plenty of difficult terrain or, more often, have a party member that can create it (Web or Evard's Black Tentacles especially), you can reduce any enemy movement to an absolute crawl. They can't blitz your back lines, and they have to just sit there while your party methodically takes them out one at a time.

The damage is just gravy.

[Lupine]

The problem with this is that Favored Enemy doesn't otherwise do anything. I'm not sold on the free Hunter's Mark either. It's fine, but I think there's still something better out there.

I guess what I want for ranger is a fighter who can prepare for combat with a certain type of enemy, and again a bonus to hit/to damage them.

Kind of like the TV show grimm, if you've ever seen it. I imagine the rangers as having large reserves of knowledge they can use to take down whatever they are fighting, even if they don't have a particularly strong fighting or spell casting ability.

Really, I just don't like how they built ranger, and if I had control, there is a lot that I would change. Ultimately, the UA isn't the redesign that I think is necessary for the class, and I guess I'm really just sharpshooting things I don't like in an attempt to foster my own redesign.

On that note, I also don't think the damage for the beasts scales well, but again, I could be alone in that.

[Hytheter]

I like they add new fighting styles but I wish they add a fighting style for Versatile weapons.

Definitely! Personally I'd like to see something that lets you don or doff a shield more quickly, or otherwise give incentive to change grip regularly.

[Lupine]

Definitely! Personally I'd like to see something that lets you don or doff a shield more quickly, or otherwise give incentive to change grip regularly.

Or something that would allow you to swing while wearing a shield, perhaps with a penalty to hit.

[Zalabim]

There is one possible use case though - projectile users are dex only, but a thrower could use Strength, and also only requires one hand. Heavy Armour, a shield, a hand that frequently empties itself for grappling opportunities... There's some possibilities there, I think. Not exactly setting the world on fire, but at least it's something.

Really is a shame that no d8 thrown weapons exist. Trident probably should be, but alas, they elected to make it worthless instead.

Speaking of throwing and grappling. That's it. Throw creatures you grapple.

Pulling out a rapier in your right hand while holding your bow in the left costs a feat?

One character is using up to heavy armor a shield. The other character is using up to medium armor and no shield. Which one is fighting effectively in melee?

A level 3 divine smite does 4d8 damage. 8d8 when used on a crit. You'd have to hit 2 enemies to do 6d8 with a Spirit Guardians in the first round. If there are 3 enemies, and there probably are if you're using Spirit Guardians, you'll beat out that Divine Smite's damage in one round, without having to hope for a crit. Generally speaking it will last more than one round, and ultimately do a lot more than that Divine Smite. It's seriously worth NOT Diving Smiting so that you can use this, unless a particularly bad boss has to die _right now_. I'm not saying those situations don't come up, but Spirit Guardians lasts for a minute. You don't have to cast very many of them in an adventuring day for it to be an extremely potent spell. Too potent for a paladin, imo.

Waterdeep basically covers this, but I still want to go into more depth. First of all, Spirit Guardians lasts up to 10 minutes. It's fantastic for a grueling gauntlet encounter, but probably still only one fight if you actually explore or investigate after finishing battle. Second, the cost isn't just one 3rd-level spell slot, it's one action and one 3rd-level spell slot. As you say, the paladin is already a devastating damage dealer, and that's an opportunity cost when it comes to casting spells instead of attacking. Also, divine smite doesn't miss (and can crit as you said) while Spirit Guardians allows saves and takes time. During that time, tactical sense is to avoid the paladin and not bunch up on the paladin. It's a great spell for disrupting or punishing enemy positions. Enemies have a good excuse to flee from you as fast as possible, which can be at full speed if they're able to get out of the Spirit Guardians' area, so position and difficult terrain are your allies in determining if you can hold the line or break it.

The exact nature of the opportunity cost is going to vary depending on your character, but for a paladin more focused on defense and support, you can probably still deal 2d8+10 (16 Str, 20 Cha, dueling style) with your attack action, then 4d8 with the smite. Such a character breaks even after 2-3 victims. This can shoot up sharply with level and build, so at level 11 an offense focused paladin may be dealing 2d6+1d4+3d8+21 (20 Str, PM+shield, dueling style) when attacking, plus 4d8 for the smite, and it takes 5-6 victims for them to break even.

[Rukelnikov]

I agree with many things being said in this thread, this looks like the seed for a 5.5, though I seriously doubt they are gonna do it, wish they would though.

Regarding power creep, I think its only power creep when the strongest gets stronger, otherwise its catching up. While there may be some power creep in this UA, I see much more instances of catching up.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet, is that Ranger's Fade Away invis doesn't go away on attack, so it can be used as a BA advantage on attacks for the rest of the turn. Yeah the name may suggest it being used otherwise, but I know how I would use that 1 turn Greater Invisibility.

Regarding the blanket versatilities, for skills I seriously dislike it, for spells... meh, cantrips are ok, leveled spells maybe should only be a Sorcerer thing, for combat styles maybe Fighters should get the ability to change style on a long rest.

Also about combat styles, there are too many, and the most you can get without multiclasing is 2, give us some options for getting additional combat styles, a feat that grants one as one of its benefits is a no brainer.

[jaappleton]

I like the idea of being able to switch proficiency much more. It allows the players to modify for what the DM is doing, rather than the other way around.

The ability to swap your fighting style is amazing for published adventures, because they have a set list of magic items.

No Archer in the party? Sucks nobody can truly maximize that +2 Longbow. Nobody uses a sword and shield? Find the Sunblade? Such a shame the Paladin took Greatweapon Fighting and not Dueling.

This fixes that, in a huge way!

[Lupine]

The ability to swap your fighting style is amazing for published adventures, because they have a set list of magic items.

Noted. I personally run only my own home made adventures, and am the DM for my group. This simply didn't occur to me.