Stupid RAW Tricks

[Yunru]

A level 7 Sorcerer creates a 5th level spell slot, then levels up, learning a 5th level spell a level early.

[CheddarChampion]

A level 7 Sorcerer creates a 5th level spell slot, then levels up, learning a 5th level spell a level early.

Don't you need 9 sorcery points to make a 5th level spell?
The max you can hold at 7th level is 7.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Don't you need 9 sorcery points to make a 5th level spell?
The max you can hold at 7th level is 7.

It's 7 to create a 5th level slot. From 1st to 5th level the costs are 2,3,5,6,7. The extra cost of creating a spell slot isn't that extreme.

[CheddarChampion]

It's 7 to create a 5th level slot. From 1st to 5th level the costs are 2,3,5,6,7. The extra cost of creating a spell slot isn't that extreme.

I stand corrected!

[MaxWilson]

A level 7 Sorcerer creates a 5th level spell slot, then levels up, learning a 5th level spell a level early.

Heh. Interesting find. I suppose the reverse could happen too if you're out of high-level slots when you gain enough XP to level up, since 5E doesn't define how long leveling up takes or when it occurs, leaving one with the impression that it might be video-game instantaneous after a fight.

[Warlush]

Level 20 wizard.
Wish a Simulacrum of yourself.
True polymorph your Simulacrum into something cool.
Repeat.
Have an army of insanely powerful allies.

[Dork_Forge]

Level 20 wizard.
Wish a Simulacrum of yourself.
True polymorph your Simulacrum into something cool.
Repeat.
Have an army of insanely powerful allies.

What about the RAW of that would stop the Simulacrum just disappearing when you recast it?

[ProsecutorGodot]

What about the RAW of that would stop the Simulacrum just disappearing when you recast it?

When you cast Simulacrum using Wish you aren't casting Simulacrum so by RAW your previous duplicates don't disappear. Wish duplicates the effects of a spell, it doesn't count as casting that spell.

[Yunru]

Technically you could argue they'd all disappear if you ever cast simulacrum normally?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Technically you could argue they'd all disappear if you ever cast simulacrum normally?

I would rule so (this is an effect of Simulacrum, which Wish duplicates) but if you've already started abusing the Wish casting variant I don't see why you would ever cast the normal spell again.

There is an argument to be made against this though, where your simulacrum aren't created via "this spell" (Simulacrum) and as such wouldn't disappear if you cast it again. I believe this is more in line with RAW because it's the exact poor wording that allows you to wish for multiple simulacrum in the first place.

There's then a third argument I can see where duplicating the effects of this line:

If you cast this spell again, any duplicate you created with this spell is instantly destroyed.

Makes the properties apply to Wish rather than Simulacrum. Seems like a large stretch but it would avoid the abuse altogether.

[TheUser]

Oh! I forgot! You can also use Illusory Reality to make -REAL- components for your spells that would otherwise cost money!

What's that? You want to cast Invulnerability but don't want to fork out 500 gp per cast?
No problem. Make an illusion of the small piece of adamantine, make the illusion real and then blamo. Free Spell!
It's real for a minute as a bonus action, and if you use level 6+ slots to make permanent illusions you can have them readily accessible at a moment's notice!

[Crgaston]

A 3rd level Thief with the Healer feat and 300gp worth of Healer's Kits can heal 600 1hd creatures for 6-11 hp EACH (average 5,400 hp altogether) over a 1 hour short rest. And the more HD they have, the better it gets.

But for keeping an actual army on their feet?

Edit:I actually don't see why they couldn't use both their action and bonus action to use Healer's Kits. So 1,200 creatures.

_____________________________________

With 2 levels of Bard, you get Song of Rest, which states that anyone who can hear you singing and who uses a hd to recover hp gains an additional 1d6 hp.

Since you're using your bonus action (with 3 levels of Thief) for the Healer's Kt shenanigans, that means you can use your move action to go 30', and let's assume Song of Rest occupies your action.

Given a very conservative 30' radius to include creatures who can hear you, you can affect 43,344 creatures over the course of a 1 hour short rest, just from Song of Rest.

You can be a Wood Elf and use the Longstrider spell, which would let you affect 64,944 creatures in an hour.

So for creatures with a d8 hd, that is potentially 2-14 healing for the 64,944 allies, or up to ~909,000 hp (average ~520,000) healed in a short rest.

And I'm just doing the math in real time... holy crap, this absolutely dwarfs even the Healer feat.

This. This is a stupid RAW trick. Screw you, Life Clerics.


Every army needs a L2 Wood Elf Bard.

[vexedart]

Shapechange into purple worm.
Milk poison into jar with hundreds of sewing needles.
Animate objects now do 1d4+4+12d6 each.
Bonus point if you can get advantage through fog or otherwise. Also, the weapons have blindsense.

[MaxWilson]

Shapechange into purple worm.
Milk poison into jar with hundreds of sewing needles.
Animate objects now do 1d4+4+12d6 each.
Bonus point if you can get advantage through fog or otherwise. Also, the weapons have blindsense.

Ooooo, nice one. Technically I believe it wouldn't work by RAW since poison isn't mentioned in Animate Objects, but it would work in actual play.

[Chugger]

I love the creative posts in this thread, but my eyes started to bleed from the bickering over rules-nuances - which was never the point of this threat - but anyway, I saw a reference to a "mice trick", and I can't find what the "mice trick" is. Can someone who's eyes are tougher than mine pls tell me? Thx!

[Willie the Duck]

I love the creative posts in this thread, but my eyes started to bleed from the bickering over rules-nuances - which was never the point of this threat - but anyway, I saw a reference to a "mice trick", and I can't find what the "mice trick" is. Can someone who's eyes are tougher than mine pls tell me? Thx!

I assume it is casting Hex on yourself with a mouse or other harmless creature as the initial target of your +1d6, then killing the mouse. The spell states, "If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature," without specifying when subsequent to killing the initial creature you have to select a new target.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I assume it is casting Hex on yourself with a mouse or other harmless creature as the initial target of your +1d6, then killing the mouse. The spell states, "If the target drops to 0 hit points before this spell ends, you can use a bonus action on a subsequent turn of yours to curse a new creature," without specifying when subsequent to killing the initial creature you have to select a new target.

Order of operations goes like this:
-Hex Mouse
-Kill Mouse
-Short Rest
-Hex is up and you have regained that spent spell slot.

There isn't really a trick involved here (trick implies that something unintentional or "technically true" by the rules is happening, see Simulacrum v Wish) other than what could be perceived as an abuse of resting, the DM could shut that part down pretty easily.

"A subsequent turn of yours" is pretty simply "on another turn that happens after this one". Any time after for as long as the spell remains is the specified timing.

[Willie the Duck]

There isn't really a trick involved here (trick implies that something unintentional or "technically true" by the rules is happening, see Simulacrum v Wish) other than what could be perceived as an abuse of resting, the DM could shut that part down pretty easily.

I don't think any technical definition of trick is really pertinent, so it's going to be entirely subjective. Casting something as a warlock that lasts for the rest of the day, and then short resting before any actual action has taken place is definitely the gamist mechanism quite a few people have complained about. That hex qualifies against a creature that never constituted a threat in the first place sometimes bothers people as well. Personally none of this even rises to the level of 'PAM+one-handed quarterstaff+shield' on my eyebrow-raise-o-meter, much less Simulacrum+Wish.

[MaxWilson]

I don't think any technical definition of trick is really pertinent, so it's going to be entirely subjective. Casting something as a warlock that lasts for the rest of the day, and then short resting before any actual action has taken place is definitely the gamist mechanism quite a few people have complained about. That hex qualifies against a creature that never constituted a threat in the first place sometimes bothers people as well. Personally none of this even rises to the level of 'PAM+one-handed quarterstaff+shield' on my eyebrow-raise-o-meter, much less Simulacrum+Wish.

Spoiler: Off topic, Gamism

Show

It's only gamist if it makes no sense in-character. Getting to reroll dice is gamist. Murdering small animals and then resting to regain your strength is potentially evil and potentially cheesy, but not gamist.

[Willie the Duck]

Spoiler: Off topic, Gamism

Show

It's only gamist if it makes no sense in-character. Getting to reroll dice is gamist. Murdering small animals and then resting to regain your strength is potentially evil and potentially cheesy, but not gamist.

Spoiler

Show

I was referring to, as ProsecutorGodot put it, 'abuse of resting.'

[CheddarChampion]

Riding a horse? The horse has normal movement.
Riding a horse and grab it with grapple? The horse has 0 movement.

Could be useful if your mount is affected by the spell "Fear?"

[Segev]

Riding a horse? The horse has normal movement.
Riding a horse and grab it with grapple? The horse has 0 movement.

Could be useful if your mount is affected by the spell "Fear?"

Well, if you want to turn a debuff on your horse into eating your actions, I suppose.

[MaxWilson]

Riding a horse? The horse has normal movement.
Riding a horse and grab it with grapple? The horse has 0 movement.

Could be useful if your mount is affected by the spell "Fear?"

Along similar lines: the fact that multiple people can ride the same Mount on their turn probably qualifies as a stupid RAW trick. By RAW, if I have six Phantom Steeds set up at 200' intervals, I can use Expeditious Retreat to ride each of them 200' (100' x 2 for Dash) for a total of 1200', and then somebody else can ride those same six steeds 200' each on their turn, and so on. Not only can I wind up travelling a quarter of a mile in only a tenth of a minute, but the steeds themselves could individually travel arbitrarily far, even dozens of miles in six seconds if there were enough riders.

It's RAW and it's stupid.

[Justin Sane]

Along similar lines: the fact that multiple people can ride the same Mount on their turn probably qualifies as a stupid RAW trick. By RAW, if I have six Phantom Steeds set up at 200' intervals, I can use Expeditious Retreat to ride each of them 200' (100' x 2 for Dash) for a total of 1200', and then somebody else can ride those same six steeds 200' each on their turn, and so on. Not only can I wind up travelling a quarter of a mile in only a tenth of a minute, but the steeds themselves could individually travel arbitrarily far, even dozens of miles in six seconds if there were enough riders.

It's RAW and it's stupid.

Can you break that down for me? How are you getting around the whole "takes half your movement to mount/dismount" thing?

Edit: "Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 feet of you or dismount. Doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed." PHB, 198. The "once" bit is particularly troubling.

[MaxWilson]

Can you break that down for me? How are you getting around the whole "takes half your movement to mount/dismount" thing?

Edit: "Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 feet of you or dismount. Doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed." PHB, 198. The "once" bit is particularly troubling.

Hmmm, has that "once" always been there or is that new or is it a mistaken quote from a web source? Sometimes they misquote... [checks Basic Rules] Looks like you're right, the trick I proposed is illegal. Good catch!

[micahaphone]

I have a delightfully ridiculous trick. The Cantrip "Friends" has a range of self, and specifies

For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you. When the spell ends, the creature realizes that you used magic to influence its mood and becomes hostile toward you. A creature prone to violence might attack you. Another creature might seek retribution in other ways (at the DM’s discretion), depending on the nature of your interaction with it.

There is no range or targeting limitation on that first sentence. You don't even need to know them.

The king of a faraway kingdom.
The nearest person named Thomas.
The leader of the thieves' guild.
The second nearest person named Thomas.
Grazzt.
The third nearest person named Thomas.
Mephistopheles.
Dogs, rats, alligators outside of the city.

It's an unlimited range aggro. Use it to cause wrinkles in diplomacy, stage scenes as a distraction, get someone to come out of hiding, get someone/something big to notice you. The possibilities (and range) are endless.

[MaxWilson]

I have a delightfully ridiculous trick. The Cantrip "Friends" has a range of self, and specifies

There is no range or targeting limitation on that first sentence. You don't even need to know them.

The king of a faraway kingdom.
The nearest person named Thomas.
The leader of the thieves' guild.
The second nearest person named Thomas.
Grazzt.
The third nearest person named Thomas.
Mephistopheles.
Dogs, rats, alligators outside of the city.

It's an unlimited range aggro. Use it to cause wrinkles in diplomacy, stage scenes as a distraction, get someone to come out of hiding, get someone/something big to notice you. The possibilities (and range) are endless.

Oh wow. This begins to remind me of nonsense like "the set of all sets which do not contain themselves."

What happens if you choose "the nearest person who will not be hostile towards me a minute from now?" Does the universe cease to exist?

That is indeed a ridiculous RAW trick.

[CheddarChampion]

What happens if you choose "the nearest person who will not be hostile towards me a minute from now?" Does the universe cease to exist?

Maybe it'll target someone immune to charm or who cannot feel hostility?

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I love this thread.

[MaxWilson]

Maybe it'll target someone immune to charm or who cannot feel hostility?

Friends doesn't rely on the Charmed condition. (Hmmm, does that make it actually useful? Naw...)

If they cannot feel hostility, then that still violates the RAW and the universe ends in paradox.