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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    Well, yes. However my point was that we've had more than 40 years of examples where rpgs didn't have to have some weird kludge to give the pcs a ship without breaking the game. The SF space ship & space combat is just a sort of half baked board game tacked on to the main 'fantasy with laser guns' game.
    Sure, although I'll note that the 3.P WBL system kind of screws with how older games tended to balance owning a starship (maybe the Star Wars d20 games did something different).

    In Mongoose Traveller 1e the cost of a basic ship outweighs that of the most expensive personal weapon by a factor of ten or so, and the next most expensive personal weapon by a factor of over a thousand, going only by the corebook (I'm sure allowing Mercenary and High Guard skews this comparison).

    In d6 Space the most expensive personal weapons are listed as cost category D(ifficult), which is 'thousands of credits'. The cheapest ship in the corebook (an in-system defender) costs about 50,000 credits, the only interstellar ship in it is over 200,000 credits. Allowing the Space Ships book roughly cuts that in half.

    I am not trawling through GURPS Ultra-Tech and Spaceships to find the comparison, because GURPS Ultra-Tech has a lot of weird stuff.

    But yeah, most games don't have PC-equipment and ship-parts on the same scale, Traveller doesn't use the same units unless the thing is available for both purposes (e.g. computers).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Sure, although I'll note that the 3.P WBL system kind of screws with how older games tended to balance owning a starship (maybe the Star Wars d20 games did something different).

    In Mongoose Traveller 1e the cost of a basic ship outweighs that of the most expensive personal weapon by a factor of ten or so, and the next most expensive personal weapon by a factor of over a thousand, going only by the corebook (I'm sure allowing Mercenary and High Guard skews this comparison).

    In d6 Space the most expensive personal weapons are listed as cost category D(ifficult), which is 'thousands of credits'. The cheapest ship in the corebook (an in-system defender) costs about 50,000 credits, the only interstellar ship in it is over 200,000 credits. Allowing the Space Ships book roughly cuts that in half.

    I am not trawling through GURPS Ultra-Tech and Spaceships to find the comparison, because GURPS Ultra-Tech has a lot of weird stuff.

    But yeah, most games don't have PC-equipment and ship-parts on the same scale, Traveller doesn't use the same units unless the thing is available for both purposes (e.g. computers).
    Never played those, but I know in D6 Star Wars, for example, even if you canít buy a weapon in the same price range as a ship, you can buy a slew of high end security droids and give them heavy blasters which in total is vastly more effective in tactical combat than upgrading your weapon.

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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Never played those, but I know in D6 Star Wars, for example, even if you canít buy a weapon in the same price range as a ship, you can buy a slew of high end security droids and give them heavy blasters which in total is vastly more effective in tactical combat than upgrading your weapon.
    Sure, but arguably in most editions of D&D it's more effective in tactical combat to sell your +5 Flaming Holy Keen Longsword to buy a county and raise an army.

    But anyway, Starfunder is a solid game with a few niggles and a space system that needs a bit of work. It's actually my favourite version of d20, even above P2 (gah, that skill system, shudder), but I'm not a big fan of d20. I would, however, happily play or run it, especially if I could be an android technomancer spacefarer. Because who doesn't love robot wizard astronauts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Alternity 2e has a different system for ammo where you roll to see whether you're out of ammo after firing, with the chance depending on the weapon (large magazine=smaller chance, autofire=larger chance). I think it works well to reflect the chaos of combat, but there's one guy in my main gaming group who's allergic to it

    The Starfinder space combat system is notably disconnected from the rest of the game - the ship BPs are just a part of that. It looks like the designers just decided that mixing the two scales was too hard. It was enough of a simplification to be a hard no for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Sure, but arguably in most editions of D&D it's more effective in tactical combat to sell your +5 Flaming Holy Keen Longsword to buy a county and raise an army.
    In AD&D and BECMI. maybe. I'd argue the reverse in 3.x and PF.

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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Mixing the two scales would mean you wouldn't be allowed even a crappy spaceship until like, level 15.
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexvrahr View Post
    Alternity 2e has a different system for ammo where you roll to see whether you're out of ammo after firing, with the chance depending on the weapon (large magazine=smaller chance, autofire=larger chance). I think it works well to reflect the chaos of combat, but there's one guy in my main gaming group who's allergic to it
    Alternity 2e is pretty good with keeping the bookkeeping simple.

    The Starfinder space combat system is notably disconnected from the rest of the game - the ship BPs are just a part of that. It looks like the designers just decided that mixing the two scales was too hard. It was enough of a simplification to be a hard no for me.
    To be fair, I suspect that if they were more linked an android's immunity to vacuum would present balance problems.

    But yeah, the ship system essentially needs a full rewrite to be worthwhile to me. It doesn't even list ship acceleration, instead giving us speed, do the designers have the faintest idea as to how spacecraft work?

    Stuff like BP are fine, but tI'm surprised that starships are assumed to be so central to the game when the designers apparently didn't care enough to make them act like spaceships.

    In AD&D and BECMI. maybe. I'd argue the reverse in 3.x and PF.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    Mixing the two scales would mean you wouldn't be allowed even a crappy spaceship until like, level 15.
    I'm systems terms? I'd at least like a good idea for how to deal with targeting ground targets while in orbit, and things like that. In economic terms, games have been doing it fit decades.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    I'm systems terms? I'd at least like a good idea for how to deal with targeting ground targets while in orbit, and things like that.
    Why would a game balanced around local-scale combat game be stupid enough to give rules on defeating the enemy from friggin orbit? The game already gives you rules for what happens if you shoot ground-targets with starship weapons, why does it need to let you do it from space.

    In economic terms, games have been doing it fit decades.
    I haven't seen it ever done well in a WBL-based game.
    Last edited by Milo v3; 2019-11-17 at 12:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    I haven't seen it ever done well in a WBL-based game.
    I don't think I've seen anything outside of personal arms and armor well done in any wbl-based game. And I'm pretty skeptical on claims that SF has managed even that.

    I actually think SF works better as a sort of comedy parody of Star Wars. Frankly any game where the words "The paisley kilted walrus space pirate double punches the radioactive tentacle elephant in the nuts with a humming frisbee" are coming out of my mouth just isn't something I can take seriously. Plus all the weird kludges in grenades, computers, all the space stuff, plus the trap feats and abilities, just... It feels and plays like just another 3.p d20 fantasy game with technology words glued on.
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Sure, although I'll note that the 3.P WBL system kind of screws with how older games tended to balance owning a starship (maybe the Star Wars d20 games did something different).
    If I remember correctly there is no WBL in SW Saga Edition (it's too long for the older d20 SW games, no idea there).
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    I don't think I've seen anything outside of personal arms and armor well done in any wbl-based game. And I'm pretty skeptical on claims that SF has managed even that.
    Yes. So why would they purposefully make it worse by putting mini-nukes on the same shopping list as laser pistols? Putting starship stuff on the same scale as WBL is taking an innate flaw and then purposefully taking it to it's worse extreme.
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Yeah, WBL is an amazingly bad idea in science fiction and not noticeably better if you blend it with fantasy. And putting mini-nukes on anyone's shopping list isn't something that reads like a good idea either. Not that Starfinder 'nukes' are such in anything but name.

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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexvrahr View Post
    Yeah, WBL is an amazingly bad idea in science fiction and not noticeably better if you blend it with fantasy. And putting mini-nukes on anyone's shopping list isn't something that reads like a good idea either. Not that Starfinder 'nukes' are such in anything but name.
    If you don't want WBL in sci-fi why the hell are you playing Starfinder? It's specifically just 3.5e/Pathfinder slightly streamlined and in space.
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    If you don't want WBL in sci-fi why the hell are you playing Starfinder? It's specifically just 3.5e/Pathfinder slightly streamlined and in space.
    I read the core book, played a one-shot & decided against more of it. There are better games out there IMO. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexvrahr View Post
    I read the core book, played a one-shot & decided against more of it. There are better games out there IMO. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
    There are definitely better games out there, I just find the idea of complaining about a game acting exactly as advertised as it's purpose weird. Like, if someone told me that M&M shouldn't be point-buy I'd find it weird since... it's a point buy game.

    A 3.5e-clone is gonna have Classes, WBL, CR, and all that jazz, so Starfinder should be designed with that as a known thing going in, rather than making decisions that would make those innate traits be more problematic. (Which is one of the things I find interesting about M&M that it's a d20 based game that has diverged so far that it isn't even a D&D-clone anymore)
    Last edited by Milo v3; 2019-11-17 at 07:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    I actually don't have a problem with the starship side, apart from the idiocy of the expansion bays and sizes. Fundementally, starship and people level combat ARE at too disparate levels. The 20-odd year old Rolemaster party we wrapped up? They had their own ship, but that was basically provided by me to them (they paid nothing for it) and aside from one instance of having to fork out for repairs once when the main laser got damaged, and one major upgrade from some friendly -high-tech powers (which again was at DM's fiat what they got, both in terms of what was allowed and what numbers), that was essentially the maximum level of involvement that had in terms of interacting with it. There were a few short starship combat sequences, but as those were mostly just, like, a couple of the PCs involved, you can make the arguement they were mostly there for the pilot to do his thing.

    Worth nothing, though, that the starship combat is, aside from character skill essentially static, because technology. The only way the PCs got it Better was literally by groveling nicely to some super-high-tech dudes that could fit better engines in (and that technology would at a price adventurers could NEVER afford, even if it was on the black market - let alone the open one - (and it isn't), since it would be being bought by the governents of major powers.

    Other parties we've had were Not-Star Trek and the PCs were the command crew - but again, the PC's involvement in making or upgrading the starship was non-existant.



    Really, there is an arguement that PCs who are not actually working for the military should NOT ever be able to stand toe-to-toe with fully armed military space craft out of their sizes class1) anyway.

    Disconnecting it from money (as to actual BUY one or upgrade one should really be on the corporation or governmental level) is not a terrible idea, to be honest, having tacitly done it myself. So while PF's solution is a bit... Unconventional, I can see their reasoning.

    If anything, they might have gone too far with it, by trying to make it level instead of just having starship combat be static and something more akin to a hazard that a combat. It was another set of rules to read, and so in the end, I did it for our party because I'd read the rules (and y'know, they all know what a starship freak I am...!) It's functional, I'll say, which is more than some, but it isn't as engaging or interesting as personal combat with that bit count (i.e. number of ships) invlved. You really need a fleet for tactics to really get into it.



    1The Falcon ran form the Star Destroyers, after all. PF MIGHT put you in a position and level 20 where the Falcon could take it on directly.

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    A common theme in sci-fi and sci-fantasy is that while military-grade hardware is high-end, it also tends to be a bit below the bleeding edge because the ultimate intent for it is mass-produceability. It's not uncommon for the protagonists/PCs to end up with stronger tech - either by getting their hands on experimental designs, sponsored by an ultra-wealthy benefactor, uncovering lost technology, or even just tinkering with existing stuff themselves if they have a genius on hand of the Tony Stark or Rocket variety. In addition, military tactics tend to be very rigid, based on assumptions about ships that may not apply to the ship that the protagonists/PCs get to use.

    These two factors combined don't necessarily mean the PCs can take on entire armies alone - but punching above their weight class is entirely possible, as is winning a fight they should have lost by virtue of their vessel being able to do something the military vessel(s) couldn't have anticipated.

    These same principles can be applied to the micro scale too, with the PCs' equipment and even powers.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    I'd say the biggest issue with starship combat is how painfully repetitive it is + how GMs meant to go through every single phase of starship combat with three to four different ships. It's hard to find fun in just saying "I re-calibrate the shields" every single turn.
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    I'd say the biggest issue with starship combat is how painfully repetitive it is + how GMs meant to go through every single phase of starship combat with three to four different ships. It's hard to find fun in just saying "I re-calibrate the shields" every single turn.
    Yeah, I think that while it was clear they were trying to have everybody have something to do, and suceeded, to some extent, it's the same problem but not as severe, as 4E's skill challenges. At some point, you're really just rolling the dice for the sake of rolling the dice. I can see how, if done more than infrequently, or in an extended battle, it could get boring fast it' your not someone shooting the guns of flying - everyone else is just "roll a dice on your turn" pretty much.

    Maybe it's a bit better at higher level when you have slightly more stuff to do?

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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    There are definitely better games out there, I just find the idea of complaining about a game acting exactly as advertised as it's purpose weird. Like, if someone told me that M&M shouldn't be point-buy I'd find it weird since... it's a point buy game.

    A 3.5e-clone is gonna have Classes, WBL, CR, and all that jazz, so Starfinder should be designed with that as a known thing going in, rather than making decisions that would make those innate traits be more problematic. (Which is one of the things I find interesting about M&M that it's a d20 based game that has diverged so far that it isn't even a D&D-clone anymore)
    Blue Rose d20, even before it went to the slightly further off D&D 3.5 system of AGE dropped WBL. For that matter d20 Modern did too. I'd call those both closer to the D&D 3.5 system than Starfinder and I suspect I could find others. Your argument is not sustainable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexvrahr View Post
    Blue Rose d20, even before it went to the slightly further off D&D 3.5 system of AGE dropped WBL. For that matter d20 Modern did too. I'd call those both closer to the D&D 3.5 system than Starfinder and I suspect I could find others. Your argument is not sustainable.
    4e D&D is another example. At start 4e uses a wealth by level system and you really need to stay close to it in order to keep the game math correct (though I find it easier to use and keep up with than 3e partly due to knowing what items are really needed and that NPCs do not need items to make their basic math work) later in the DMG2 and for the Dark Sun setting they came out with inherent bonuses which made it so that the basic math part of the magic item equation (the only part that is "needed" for the game) was made part of character progression and actual magic items did not add to them but could be used if better (this is the math oriented items such as a sword+1 items like winged boots worked like they always have).

    Using that system a DM did not have to use magic items at all or only hand out the ones they wanted to for flavor and not have to worry about the characters being weaker than baseline. In many ways I liked it a whole lot better. For instance you could find that flaming sword and if that is something you always wanted you could keep it as a your signature weapon for the whole game rather than being forced to trade it in for something more level appropriate or going through hoops to upgrade it in boring math only related ways (+1 flaming sword is now +2 woo!).

    That being said the biggest issue for many 3e players is expectations with the items. You could totally come up with basic level based additions that mimic basic magic items into the level progression much like VoP (I started doing that with NPCs in 3e before 4e came out to try to stop handing out so much treasure while getting to use NPC type enemies) but as we know many people will be either upset with the lack of certain types of item abilities or will falt out feel it is too weak (whether it is actually too weak for the global game is another story the player may feel it is too weak from what they could have had). So you would have to find a way to get that buy which in some ways is easier if you are in a new system all together.


    As for Starfinder not a fan really though I do not hate it. I still really dislike how the game works as I still find it uses too much of 3e D&D and I still feel that system is more clunky than it needs to be though I will say while I do not like it all that much it is still better than 3e since the system does not punish you for moving quite as much as 3e did if you use weapons. I do refuse to DM 3e D&D games anymore due to being way more work than I get enjoyment out of a game (after doing level 1-20 campaigns in it I just will not go through that again after going back to older and trying newer version where it was far less work even at higher levels and my players and I had just as much fun if not more) but will play I am not sure that would be true for Spacefinder or not. Nobody around plays Spacefinder that I have really seen (though I am sure there are people that do so but I am just not seeing it or being asked to do it) so I have not had a chance to even consider DMing it yet.

    Best part of Starfinder is the art which feels like Pathfinder meets Mass Effect and I also like how parts feel before I actually to play them or do much with them (though sadly after delving deeper it tends to sour for me).
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Yeah, I think that while it was clear they were trying to have everybody have something to do, and suceeded, to some extent, it's the same problem but not as severe, as 4E's skill challenges. At some point, you're really just rolling the dice for the sake of rolling the dice. I can see how, if done more than infrequently, or in an extended battle, it could get boring fast it' your not someone shooting the guns of flying - everyone else is just "roll a dice on your turn" pretty much.

    Maybe it's a bit better at higher level when you have slightly more stuff to do?
    I got to suffer through it from 6 to 14 as a technomancer and it was pretty bad. The character wasn't best a piloting, shooting, or engineering, so got stuck on computers. First round scan, then try to give +2 to the gunner twice, then just spam shield balance. The only people who really do anything meaningful are pilot and gunners. The skill checks to do basic stuff have around a 50% success rate if the party and ship levels are equal. The advanced tricks are level gated, and cost resolve, and seem to usually have DCs 5 higher than normal. For some reason the captain role just seems terrible, I've only seen envoy characters try it twice and the maybe 1/3 time they made the DCs the +/-2 theat applied didn't have any effect.
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    I've looked through the book a bit and it has some points I like and some that I feel are just unnecessary. For example, how the drift drives work is okay and I can kinda see it as a spiritual successor to spelljamming helms, albeit less... "realistic?" It's more of a teleportation effect through a vacuum than stupid-high rate of speed through burning "gas". Also how weapon ratings and their prices are handled is just kinda crap, but that's more of a holdover from 3.5 so...

    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexvrahr View Post
    Blue Rose d20, even before it went to the slightly further off D&D 3.5 system of AGE dropped WBL. For that matter d20 Modern did too. I'd call those both closer to the D&D 3.5 system than Starfinder and I suspect I could find others. Your argument is not sustainable.
    The argument wasn't that you can't change from the formula..... I even mentioned how M&M comes from the d20 base and diverted massively. I'm saying I find it weird to complain that "feature that has a massive chance of being there is there" when the whole point of the game is to be "Pathfinder but In-Space".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    The argument wasn't that you can't change from the formula..... I even mentioned how M&M comes from the d20 base and diverted massively. I'm saying I find it weird to complain that "feature that has a massive chance of being there is there" when the whole point of the game is to be "Pathfinder but In-Space".
    Maybe because Pathfinder has a history of building subsystems which do interact both with character actions and WBL? Like the downtime system, which my group quite likes, and kingmaker, which is still more interactive than your starship. Maybe because they made an adventure path which included a reputation/infamy stat and lets PCs customize, capture and sell ships? Itís like they looked at their own past efforts, decided that was too hard and gave up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Maybe because Pathfinder has a history of building subsystems which do interact both with character actions and WBL? Like the downtime system, which my group quite likes, and kingmaker, which is still more interactive than your starship. Maybe because they made an adventure path which included a reputation/infamy stat and lets PCs customize, capture and sell ships? Itís like they looked at their own past efforts, decided that was too hard and gave up.
    That is a separate topic to Starfinder having WBL at all though. They have WBL because they are using the main core shell of Pathfinder. They aren't mixing WBL and Ships because of how innately stupid it is and how it hasn't worked properly in any of those past efforts or while playtesting starfinder, which doesn't conflict with the first part because "tying WBL to random subsystem" isn't core to the shell of Pathfinder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Telok View Post
    I got to suffer through it from 6 to 14 as a technomancer and it was pretty bad. The character wasn't best a piloting, shooting, or engineering, so got stuck on computers. First round scan, then try to give +2 to the gunner twice, then just spam shield balance. The only people who really do anything meaningful are pilot and gunners. The skill checks to do basic stuff have around a 50% success rate if the party and ship levels are equal. The advanced tricks are level gated, and cost resolve, and seem to usually have DCs 5 higher than normal. For some reason the captain role just seems terrible, I've only seen envoy characters try it twice and the maybe 1/3 time they made the DCs the +/-2 theat applied didn't have any effect.
    We have a party of seven, so all the roles are filled (in fact, the solarion doesn't bother to do anything, since we have the envoy as captain and none of the other roles he can really fit at - since gunner (+0 Dex) and engineer are the only ones with more than one slot.)

    Were you playing before or after the completely errata'd all the DCs for Starship combat? Now they're mostly down to stuff like 15 + 1-1/2 CR, they're not unmanageable. For the people who have specialised of course. My Goblin Operative has a 70% chance of making his engineering checks, and he's got the highest engineering score.

    Though Starfinder does seem to have an issue that "if you haven't specailised to the max, don't bother" with skill checks overall; DCs in general seem a bit high.

    (Treat Deadly Wounds (DC 25) and Long Term Care (DC 30?!) for one, and the AP we're running has had quite a lot of DC 25 checks (at levels 2-3) which are difficult to make (mostly not made any of them even when I rolled well), even for my operative when playing to his highest skills; 25 is a lot when you're looking at maybe only +11, +12 at the outside. It means a party without someone maxed-out basically only has a 10% or less of making those checks, which seems... Harsh.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    That is a separate topic to Starfinder having WBL at all though. They have WBL because they are using the main core shell of Pathfinder. They aren't mixing WBL and Ships because of how innately stupid it is and how it hasn't worked properly in any of those past efforts or while playtesting starfinder, which doesn't conflict with the first part because "tying WBL to random subsystem" isn't core to the shell of Pathfinder.
    Is it? Looks to me like we started talking about WBL in reaction to concerns about how WBL gets broken if you try to mesh it with ships that cost more than WBL. And itís hardly a random subsystem. Itís a full chapter of the core rules which they seem compelled to make me use several times per AP and in many SFS games. That seems worth some effort. And for my money those subsystems are some of the best products Paizo has produced.

    Barring ships, the only part of WBL thatís really problematic is the routine mandatory upgrading of weapons. And that wasnít really required. You could easily make weapon damage or AC scale by level (like SW D20) and make gear upgrades less critical. Honestly, just saying a laser does 9d4 in the hands of an 8th level character and making upgrades like +1 keen seems closer to PF WBL than what they went with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aniikinis View Post
    I've looked through the book a bit and it has some points I like and some that I feel are just unnecessary. For example, how the drift drives work is okay and I can kinda see it as a spiritual successor to spelljamming helms, albeit less... "realistic?" It's more of a teleportation effect through a vacuum than stupid-high rate of speed through burning "gas".
    Apart from the 'there are some places where you can travel to them in 1d6 days no matter where you are' bit it's really not much different from other variable speed hyperspaces. Sure it has that 'stealing bits of other planes' thing (I bet the gods are happy about that), but in practice that's not much more than 'boy you can encounter a lot of weird stuff in hyperspace'.

    To be honest Starfinder wouldn't change much if instead of the Drift ships travelled through the astral plane and had a chance of running into outsiders travelling across it to get to other planes. I suspect the Drift is mainly there to have unanswered questions, of which some but not all will be answered via subsequent books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milo v3 View Post
    That is a separate topic to Starfinder having WBL at all though. They have WBL because they are using the main core shell of Pathfinder. They aren't mixing WBL and Ships because of how innately stupid it is and how it hasn't worked properly in any of those past efforts or while playtesting starfinder, which doesn't conflict with the first part because "tying WBL to random subsystem" isn't core to the shell of Pathfinder.
    The question is why fdoes the starship need to upgrade? It's not a big thing in most of the media SF is inspired by, where upgrades are generally a big thing that happens rarely. I don't remember the Enterprise getting a new set of phasers, but I do remember stuff like ships being destroyed and replaced with better models.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Is it? Looks to me like we started talking about WBL in reaction to concerns about how WBL gets broken if you try to mesh it with ships that cost more than WBL.

    And itís hardly a random subsystem. Itís a full chapter of the core rules which they seem compelled to make me use several times per AP and in many SFS games. That seems worth some effort. And for my money those subsystems are some of the best products Paizo has produced.
    I haven't heard anything about any of the subsystems of Pathfinder being improved by allowing them to completely screw with WBL. Kingdom rules are neat, but dang is it weird balance-wise when you end up needing to choose between "well I can either make myself weaker for adventuring for a flavour of improving my kingdom" or "I can get near-free money that helps me be a tonnes better adventurer because I can take money out of my kingdom"

    Barring ships, the only part of WBL thatís really problematic is the routine mandatory upgrading of weapons. And that wasnít really required. You could easily make weapon damage or AC scale by level (like SW D20) and make gear upgrades less critical. Honestly, just saying a laser does 9d4 in the hands of an 8th level character and making upgrades like +1 keen seems closer to PF WBL than what they went with.
    I would have much preferred if it was an upgrade based system or something, rather than needing 5 to 10 different versions of each weapon so that you can use the same weapon-type throughout the whole campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    The question is why fdoes the starship need to upgrade? It's not a big thing in most of the media SF is inspired by, where upgrades are generally a big thing that happens rarely. I don't remember the Enterprise getting a new set of phasers, but I do remember stuff like ships being destroyed and replaced with better models.
    Completely agree.
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    Default Re: Anybody playing Starfinder?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    The question is why fdoes the starship need to upgrade? It's not a big thing in most of the media SF is inspired by, where upgrades are generally a big thing that happens rarely. I don't remember the Enterprise getting a new set of phasers, but I do remember stuff like ships being destroyed and replaced with better models.
    Also agree. Like I say, I don't particularly mind that the system exists, but it's not the way I would have chosen to go myself.

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