The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    You seem to think that I said: "Mortals are cows."

    No, I said that for the gods mortals are cattle, and that fit the definition.
    But maybe you need some counter argument to your own, so let's enter the madness.

    Let's call to help mr Lovercraft and his De La Poer family. They captured and enslaved humans keeping them in a secret cave, breeding them (and interbreeding them, up to make them deformed and quadrupedial), eating them. Were they cattle to the De La Poer?
    Was the first captured generation, which was presumably sentient and completely human, cattle for them?
    Well, you did say ĎMortals are cowsí. Sheeps and chicken arenít cattle, because cattle refers specifically to bovines and cows kept by humans.

    This metaphor being like that one time the gods took the mortals from their home plane, captured them and forced worship ?
    Unless you mean the De La Poer created the first generation from scratch, then gave them all the choice to become Ďfoodí (even if thatís not quite true since gods donít eat mortals any faster than they Ďdissolveí into the planes, as they would anyway), free to roam the world either way ?
    Last edited by Theshipening; 2019-11-13 at 06:09 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    They could make them immortal. So, yeah, "died of old age" to give us our soul, is exactly that.
    If they made Mortals immortal, they would have created Immortals, not Mortals. Mortals, by definition, are mortal.

    Do the Gods kill the Mortals, though? No. That means Gods aren't ranchers, but opportunistic scavengers at most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    You seem to think that I said: "Mortals are cows."
    You actually did. But I have been already ninja'd on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Dear gods, I didn't think it was so hard, but here we go: cattle are creatures kept, bred, milked and killed for food. Full stop.
    Since Gods don't kill mortals, they don't fit your definition of "cattle".

    And since Mortals don't fit the 8 points I mentioned in my previous message, they don't fit the common definition of what constitutes "cattle", either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Let's call to help mr Lovercraft and his De La Poer family. They captured and enslaved humans keeping them in a secret cave, breeding them (and interbreeding them, up to make them deformed and quadrupedial), eating them. Were they cattle to the De La Poer?
    Was the first captured generation, which was presumably sentient and completely human, cattle for them?
    Do the humans kept as cattle by De La Poer have a choice? No. As you have pointed out, they were captured and enslaved. Mortals, on the other hand, get to choose. Mortals aren't tamed animals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    This is another interesting point... since has 0 correlation with what being a cattle is.
    Yes, it has. Because by definition, cattle are tamed, domesticated animals, breed for food. Mortals aren't tamed neither domesticated, neither are breed by the Gods or are forced to become food. Mortals have free will, can survive on their own without the Gods, and can choose to not help Gods or provide them with any upkeep if they want. Mortals can even choose to neglect the Gods and make them dissapear, if they wanted. Odin got turned into an idiot by the Mortals of the former World.

    I have totally wrecked your analogy. Denial will not help you.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-11-13 at 06:45 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    They could make them immortal.
    So, yeah, "died of old age" to give us our soul, is exactly that.
    Have we seen that OotS Gods CAN make people immortal?
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Have we seen that OotS Gods CAN make people immortal?
    They canít even choose the color of their own hair.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Have we seen that OotS Gods CAN make people immortal?
    Actually, we have! Mortals that ascend to godhood become immortal, and most of those have done so with the help and support of existing gods.

    Doesn't really solve the originally posed question though.

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Actually, we have! Mortals that ascend to godhood become immortal, and most of those have done so with the help and support of existing gods.
    They need a whole pantheon as far as Thor said...
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Dear gods, I didn't think it was so hard, but here we go: cattle are creatures kept, bred, milked and killed for food. Full stop.
    okay, so you've just proven that the Mortals aren't cattle then, because the gods do absolutely none of that.

    The mortals are not "Kept" anywhere, unless you count the planet as a whole. They're free to roam and travel as they wish, even to other planes of existence entirely. If they had enough time, they would probably develop space-travel technology, and we have nothing saying the gods would stop them from leaving the planet.

    The mortals are not bred. They are free to choose their mates as they wish, and they are free to not mate at all. If every mortal on the planet decided to just never have children, there would be nothing the gods could do about it, because the mortals have free will.

    The Mortals are not milked, there is no active process of going to a mortal to receive any nutrition. Mortals just passively provide it just by believing the gods exist. This is as similar to "Milking" as me typing these words to you is "Killing" me by using up my time.

    And the Mortals are not killed for food. The gods do not actively kill their worshipers, they have no control over HOW a mortal dies. If they did, we wouldn't see arguments between Hel and the other gods on whether or not a Dwarf died honorably. they would just "Know", because they actively murdered the Dwarves. But they didn't, so they don't.

    the mortals are not like cattle. Full stop.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2019-11-13 at 08:12 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Keep in mind: the Gods MADE mortals. Yes, they eventually end your existence to fuel themselves, but they are also responsible for said existence. From dust to dust. Such is the way. Since mortal life could not exist without the gods, or the gods survive without mortals, itís more like a symbiotic relationship. They create us and, in exchange, when we die, they take us out. Otherwise, they would starve and the world would die for the last time. It sucks that we must die, but the gods have no other option, unless you want your world to be the last. As a Good person, I cannot condone thinking my individual consciousness being maintained is more important then the thousands of lives that would be lost, or never exist, should the gods falter. The circle must be maintained.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-11-13 at 09:13 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    okay, so you've just proven that the Mortals aren't cattle then, because the gods do absolutely none of that.

    The mortals are not "Kept" anywhere, unless you count the planet as a whole. They're free to roam and travel as they wish, even to other planes of existence entirely. If they had enough time, they would probably develop space-travel technology, and we have nothing saying the gods would stop them from leaving the planet.

    The mortals are not bred. They are free to choose their mates as they wish, and they are free to not mate at all. If every mortal on the planet decided to just never have children, there would be nothing the gods could do about it, because the mortals have free will.

    The Mortals are not milked, there is no active process of going to a mortal to receive any nutrition. Mortals just passively provide it just by believing the gods exist. This is as similar to "Milking" as me typing these words to you is "Killing" me by using up my time.

    And the Mortals are not killed for food. The gods do not actively kill their worshipers, they have no control over HOW a mortal dies. If they did, we wouldn't see arguments between Hel and the other gods on whether or not a Dwarf died honorably. they would just "Know", because they actively murdered the Dwarves. But they didn't, so they don't.

    the mortals are not like cattle. Full stop.
    I wonder why I keep debating here.
    Sure, the fact that this is a High Fantasy setting changes everything and mortals are not cattle for Gods. Suit yourself.
    I had enough of this.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    The point of debate is to propose and defend points of view others may not share with the goal of everyone learning and, perhaps, coming away with a new understanding of the complex issues being discussed.

    It is not to browbeat the other guy into adopting your point of view. When debaters refuse to consider the merits of the points presented by the other, even when they disagree with them, both sides lose.

    The only way to win a debate is to challenge the other side to create better defenses for their arguments. These are not attacks against the person, but against the arguement, and it is a mistake to take such things personally. When you find yourself reacting emotionally rather than logically it is time to step away.

    Don't bring your feelings to a debate and they won't get hurt. And who knows? You might just learn something, even if it's just a better way to say what you want to say.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    they eventually end your existence to fuel themselves,
    Iím curious what makes you think this is true?

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Iím curious what makes you think this is true?
    They depend on the souls of the dead for power. That was the cause of this book's main conflict. They don't directly kill you (most of the time), but they created worlds full of mortals, i.e., people who must eventually die, for this purpose.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Iím curious what makes you think this is true?
    Well, they feed off your corpse, as it were.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Draconi Redfir's Avatar

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    They depend on the souls of the dead for power. That was the cause of this book's main conflict. They don't directly kill you (most of the time), but they created worlds full of mortals, i.e., people who must eventually die, for this purpose.
    but not STRICTLY for this purpose. If their only concern was food, then we wouldn't have seen snack-food world, gritty cyberpunk world, talking animal world, and gritty cyber-talking animal world.

    Their creation of worlds is more for creativity fun and explorations then it is for food.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    They depend on the souls of the dead for power. That was the cause of this book's main conflict. They don't directly kill you (most of the time), but they created worlds full of mortals, i.e., people who must eventually die, for this purpose.
    They also need the living for power. As the main conflict of this book shows. Hel is dying not for lack of dead souls, but for lack of living worship.

    And, given that the Gods and the Outer Planes themselves are the product of the ideas of the living, I don't think the Gods were the ones that invented the "dead-souls-fuel-the-outer-planes" cycle.

  16. - Top - End - #106
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    And, given that the Gods and the Outer Planes themselves are the product of the ideas of the living, I don't think the Gods were the ones that invented the "dead-souls-fuel-the-outer-planes" cycle.
    Some people on this forum seem to believe gods are omnipotent, including creating all of the laws under which the universe operates.

    In other words, some people believe the gods invented mortals, and souls, and the absorption of souls into the outer planes.

    Under this viewpoint, mortal die and their souls are eventually absorbed because gods designed and constructed the laws or the universe this way at their own discretion, and are capable of changing the fundamental laws that control the universe at their discretion.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-14 at 03:23 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #107
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Yeah. What I can't figure out is, if the Gods are truly omnipotent and designed all the rules of the Universe, then why they set up things in a way that allows mere mortals to change the hair of a God, or their IQ level, and that a mere dispute between Gods can create an unstoppable deicide eldritch abomination.

    As I see it, the Gods are just ultra-powerful Outsiders with the capability of creating a world in the Material Prime and set it with mortal things. But that's about it. Anything in the Outer Planes is out of their scope, including the laws of the Universe. They can mindwipe the outsiders because the Gods can cast very powerful magic, not because they can change the rules of the Universe.

    In my head canon, all the worlds the Gods have created operated under the d20 rules. They change the style of the setting, and perhaps the level of self-awareness of the inhabitats of the world regarding the game rules. But that's about it.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-11-14 at 02:20 PM.

  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Some people on this forum seem to believe gods are omnipotent, including creating all of the laws under which the universe operates.

    In other words, some people believe the gods invented mortals, and souls, and the absorption of souls into the outer planes.

    Under this viewpoint, mortal die and their souls are eventually absorbed because gods designed and constructed the laws or the universe this way at their own discretion, and are capable of changing the fundamental laws that control the universe at their discretion.
    They're wrong, though. The gods are explictly incapable of doing many things, as seen with Loki's frustration and Odin's mental state, or just the existence of the Snarl.

    Also, Redcloak's info dump in SoD doesn't make sense if the gods can change the rules as they please, but you may not believe in its accuracy.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    As I see it, the Gods are just ultra-powerful Outsiders with the capability of creating a world in the Material Prime and set it with mortal things. But that's about it.
    That agrees with my personal interpretation of the comic as well.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-14 at 03:22 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Yeah. What I can't figure out is, if the Gods are truly omnipotent and designed all the rules of the Universe, then why they set up things in a way that allows mere mortals to change the hair of a God, or their IQ level, and that a mere dispute between Gods can create an unstoppable deicide eldritch abomination.
    Who ever said the gods were omnipotent?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    As I see it, the Gods are just ultra-powerful Outsiders
    So the gods are gods. I agree.

  21. - Top - End - #111
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Who ever said the gods were omnipotent?
    Well, monotheistic traditions present their Gods as omniscient and omnipotent, as opposed to polytheistic traditions, whose Gods are just very powerful humans (or anthropomorphic animals) with superpowers. But I suppose this is not the asnwer you are looking for.

    Okey, some people in this thread take as granted that the Gods created the Mortals as mortal on purpose. Like if they could make inhabitants of the Prime Material Plane immortal. As far as I know only pure outsiders are immortal, and they are popped by the Outer Planes, not the Gods.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-11-14 at 04:48 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Who ever said the gods were omnipotent?
    Certainly not Rich, creator of OoTSverse.
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Lizardfolk

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    The problem with immortal worshippers is the Gods would get little/no Dedication, and that seems very important to Gods as Hel's plan would mean (in the short term) a tidal wave of dead dwarves would override her lack of Worship.
    It's also worth mentioning Thor tells us the souls power the afterlives, not the Gods themselves. While the Gods might get some power from the Outer Planes, its not quite the same as 'All the Gods eat souls and want to destroy the world for a free ticket to Chompytowne'.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    The problem with immortal worshippers is the Gods would get little/no Dedication
    The problem with a universe where literally everything is immortal and nothing at all can ever die under any circumstances and there's really no risk to anyone is... ehh... that's not a comic I'd particularly want to read.

    I mean, imagine an immortal Roy who's lived billions of years and knows that can't ever die. He doesn't care if the snarl eats this world, because the snarl can't hurt him or anyone he cares about, and he'll just do something else after the gods build the next world. Imagine an immortal Thor that can't ever die. He doesn't care if the snarl eats this world, because the snarl can't hurt him or anyone he cares about, and he'll just build another world.

    Also, Miko would still be alive, because it would have been literally impossible for Xykon to kill her, because she is immortal. Blech.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-15 at 12:16 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    OK fine. It's ONE of the problems with Immortal Worshippers.

  26. - Top - End - #116
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    OK fine. It's ONE of the problems with Immortal Worshippers.
    Lol. Also, think of how funky everything would smell if all the yeast lived forever!

  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Lol. Also, think of how funky everything would smell if all the yeast lived forever!
    How much worship can the Gods get off yeast? Assuming it's non-sentient yeast, or to give it its proper title, 'yeast'.

  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    How much worship can the Gods get off yeast? Assuming it's non-sentient yeast, or to give it its proper title, 'yeast'.
    Without yeast there is no beer! And without beer, the gods themselves would not survive.

    (Iím not sure who in this thread came up with the strange idea that if the gods truly loved their creations, they would make them everlasting. But if we follow the idea to its end, and agree all living things should be made immortal, it makes sense that the greatest and most humble creation of the gods, yeast, would be among the undying.)
    Last edited by Dion; Today at 12:23 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Without yeast there is no beer! And without beer, the gods themselves would not survive.

    (Iím not sure who in this thread came up with the strange idea that if the gods truly loved their creations, they would make them everlasting. But if we follow the idea to its end, and agree all living things should be made immortal, it makes sense that the greatest and most humble creation of the gods, yeast, would be among the undying.)
    Funnily, by that logic, one could question why anyone bothers making anything.
    Last edited by woweedd; Today at 12:49 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    Funnily, by that logic, one could question why anyone bothers making anything.
    Itís almost as if I were using intentionally bad logic.
    Last edited by Dion; Today at 01:49 AM.

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