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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Morquard View Post
    "They die of old age" is an easy way out, but what if a whole family (or multiple) planeshifts? They build their own demi-plane, have kids, marry, have more kids, have grandkids, and so on.
    Then they become Outsiders, and have their mind wipped like all other outsiders.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Counter-counter-counter-point: Eh, not really
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    Also he totally knew the dude, knowing the work of one of your coworkers who exclusively seems to talk about this work seems pretty easy without needing to ever read it.

    I know you're joking here, yada-yada-yada
    Counter-counter-counter-counterpoint: Though really there should be one more "counter" in there.
    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    He was in high school, so he had at least read quite a few textbooks up to that point.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Counterpoint: He didn't start reading it till after he died.
    After he died and became a Lich, gaining +2 Int and +2 Wis.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Counter-counter-counter-counterpoint: Though really there should be one more "counter" in there.
    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    He was in high school, so he had at least read quite a few textbooks up to that point.
    Counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint:
    Spoiler: Mainly cause what you said was in spoilers
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    At least according to wikipedia in quite a few places grade retention is illegal or severely discouraged, maybe his school is like those places.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint:
    Spoiler: Mainly cause what you said was in spoilers
    Show
    At least according to wikipedia in quite a few places grade retention is illegal or severely discouraged, maybe his school is like those places.
    Counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint:

    Spoiler: At this point it's just silly
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    Xykon's schoolteachers all cast Protection From Law!
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint:

    Spoiler: At this point it's just silly
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    Xykon's schoolteachers all cast Protection From Law!
    Counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint:
    Spoiler: Slowly going mad
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    Xykon didn't seem to know any casters.


    HA!

    I'm sure this argument can be debunked, I just want to see how many counters we can get
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counter-counterpoint:
    Spoiler: Slowly going mad
    Show

    Xykon didn't seem to know any casters.


    HA!
    Marble counter: They just didn't tell him.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    By the way, who strikes you as the person who has read fewer books, if any? Xykon the Sorcerer or Miko Mayazaki?

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    By the way, who strikes you as the person who has read fewer books, if any? Xykon the Sorcerer or Miko Mayazaki?
    Xykon, as seen by this "argument", I wouldn't be surprised if he read his first book after he died, Miko Miyazaki may have a lot of problems but I'm sure she at least picked up a book in school.

    EDIT:Argue about Miko! Argue about Miko! Argue about Miko!
    Last edited by Schroeswald; 2019-11-09 at 04:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    So, this is going to sound a little strange, but, assuming the world and all mortals are made up of the strands of reality provided by the multiple pantheons, would the mortals simply seize to exist? If the Gods are "collecting" the strands of reality, if they just decided to "pull" them back, wouldn't the physical bodies of all mortals vanish, with their souls then moving to the after life?
    I'm just shooting in the dark over here
    It might be like that.

    Or it might be that they cast a special super uber godly spell "Dissolve reality" on a specific plane, and that returns the reality hit by the super uber godly spell back to its quantistic 40 dimensions strings (which we cannot comprehend or imagine, and so the Gods kindly described them as normal strands for us) and collect this tiny strings, then working them back to "strands" with their big super uber godly loom, not differently from what we do when we recycle things[1].

    In the latter case, if one is away from the plane where the super uber godly spell is casted, is safe. Like a sheet of paper who falls off from the garbage collecting truck and flies away, carried away by a sweet spring wind, while the other sheets of paper go to face their destiny at the recycling center.


    [1] Honestly I'm not sure about fabric, but since wool is obtained starting from the quite short body hair of sheeps, and then we can get strands quite long, I think that might work when we recycle it, too. Anyway, about recycling I was thinking more of paper, honestly: minced, dissolved, and then used to create new sheets.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Counter-counter-counter-counterpoint: Though really there should be one more "counter" in there.
    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    He was in high school, so he had at least read quite a few textbooks up to that point.
    No, I don't think so.
    Spoiler
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    He was a lousy student.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Then they become Outsiders, and have their mind wipped like all other outsiders.
    I'm pretty sure that's not how one becomes an Outsider

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    ElfRogueGirl

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    I wouldn't be surprised if the gods had a demiplane somewhere where survivors of the previous world can chill out for the rest of their natural life with an understanding that they can't have children once they're there.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if the gods had a demiplane somewhere where survivors of the previous world can chill out for the rest of their natural life with an understanding that they can't have children once they're there.
    Only a third of the gods are Good, so that seems like pie-in-the-sky level optimism. Especially since we already know they kill everyone right off the bat to begin with.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Only a third of the gods are Good, so that seems like pie-in-the-sky level optimism. Especially since we already know they kill everyone right off the bat to begin with.
    In fairness, though I very much doubt it exists, the Good gods probably are capable of creating just such a demiplane by themselves. (My rule of thumb is that if a level 30 wizard could do it, a god probably also could.) They might even do it, if there were survivors who asked nicely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
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    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Is there actual reason Hilgya's would work, really?

    I thought when gods unmade the world to make a new world, that this meant the entire story world, not just the planet where the OotS population works.
    Because the plane of gold or elemental water or ranch dressing or 45° slopes all belong to D&D world number 1223, don't they? And when the gods next make Star Wars themed LARP world, there will be small planets of hats where players can travel to, and not demi plains and pocket dimensions made by wizards.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    Is there actual reason Hilgya's would work, really?

    I thought when gods unmade the world to make a new world, that this meant the entire story world, not just the planet where the OotS population works.
    Because the plane of gold or elemental water or ranch dressing or 45° slopes all belong to D&D world number 1223, don't they? And when the gods next make Star Wars themed LARP world, there will be small planets of hats where players can travel to, and not demi plains and pocket dimensions made by wizards.
    It's a little ambiguous, but it seems like certain places (such as the Astral Plane) are always around, even between worlds. In theory, a mortal could travel to one of those places and attempt to wait until the next world is formed, but it's unlikely they would survive long enough to succeed in that goal.

    My reasoning: Thor explains in Strip #1138 that the Outer Planes are composed of ideas "so powerful, they became places" and that even the Gods themselves are shaped by beliefs. Whether those places remain in-between worlds is up for debate, but presumably the Gods keep their personal domains from world-to-world (even if the particulars of those domains might change a bit based on what the new mortals believe in World #3,765,912,400,756).

    Thor also mentions in Strip #1144 that there is an "interim period" where the Gods have to wait until the Snarl calms down before beginning another World; while he doesn't specify where they hide, the fact he calls the Astral Plane "a place to stash stuff" in #1138 suggests they might hide there (perhaps even in their respective domains).
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-11-10 at 12:58 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Only a third of the gods are Good, so that seems like pie-in-the-sky level optimism. Especially since we already know they kill everyone right off the bat to begin with.
    I'd be surprised if the evil gods were so petty that a handful of mortals in some demiplane would get their ire.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Some of the outer afterlife planes have still alive mortals living on them in some versions of the DND cosmology. If those are around in oots, they've gotta come from somewhere.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2019-11-10 at 01:34 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    It's a little ambiguous, but it seems like certain places (such as the Astral Plane) are always around, even between worlds. In theory, a mortal could travel to one of those places and attempt to wait until the next world is formed, but it's unlikely they would survive long enough to succeed in that goal.
    Why not? As Xykon pointed out, true immortality isn't that hard with a bit of magic. The afterlife scheme only nets you a tiny bit of extra time in the grand scene of things, but by becoming a lich or something else you get to stay around forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resileaf View Post
    I'd be surprised if the evil gods were so petty that a handful of mortals in some demiplane would get their ire.
    Maybe some evil gods get complacent.

    Those are the ones that get starved out of souls.

    You don't get to remain a god for a zillion of cycles for leaving loose ends, in particular when there's new gods keep popping up either because Thor/Loki knocked up some goddess or mortals ascending, but soul supply remains limited, and since there's less than a hundred gods on sight after said zillion cycles, it means only the most efficient gods get to eat enough souls to survive to the next cycle.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-11-10 at 04:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Maybe some evil gods get complacent.

    Those are the ones that get starved out of souls.

    You don't get to remain a god for a zillion of cycles for leaving loose ends, in particular when there's new gods keep popping up either because Thor/Loki knocked up some goddess or mortals ascending, but soul supply remains limited, and since there's less than a hundred gods on sight after said zillion cycles, it means only the most efficient gods get to eat enough souls to survive to the next cycle.
    Why are you talking about efficiency and complacency here? What about any of these gods makes you think that they would need to murder a handful of souls in a demi-plane as opposed to just like, letting them die when they get too old? And why is efficiency brought in here? Maybe it’s gods with broad enough portfolios to consistently get people to care about them across worlds, which based on the portfolios we’ve seen among these gods, makes sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    An oft-overlooked rule with Plane Shift is that you need an attuned focus to travel to another plane (and its a different focus for each plane). If a particular plane doesn't fit the next Material Planes campaign setting, the Gods could cut them out and make sure no one from an excluded plane can get a focus for the new Material Plane and vice versa.
    Edit: after rechecking the rule, it doesn't use the word 'attunement' in the SRD; the plane is dictated by size and metal of the focus. Point still stands, however, if the Gods make a new metal on the new Material Plane that didn't exist in previous worlds.
    Last edited by Riftwolf; 2019-11-10 at 08:51 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Why not? As Xykon pointed out, true immortality isn't that hard with a bit of magic. The afterlife scheme only nets you a tiny bit of extra time in the grand scene of things, but by becoming a lich or something else you get to stay around forever.
    My theory, as posted earlier in this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Aboleth View Post
    My personal headcanon is that once the world is unmade, all creatures/individuals quickly start to lose their physical forms as the quiddities that composed them are likewise becoming "unraveled" or "separated." Thor mentions mortals are made with quiddities from each color...presumably during the "unraveling" of the Snarl's prison, the combined colors that make up mortals are also separated and returned to their respective pantheons.

    It's probably not a perfect theory (I haven't tried too hard to poke holes in it), but to me it explains why plane-shifted mortals don't survive from world to world. Which is a shame, because I'd really love a Laser-Snail cameo!
    If this were the case, becoming a lich or something wouldn't matter as you'd still be "unraveled" when the Gods unmake the world.

    EDIT: Also, Xykon never says achieving immortality "isn't that hard." He just said it was possible, and listed some ways people could do it.
    Last edited by The Aboleth; 2019-11-10 at 09:42 AM.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Why are you talking about efficiency and complacency here? What about any of these gods makes you think that they would need to murder a handful of souls in a demi-plane as opposed to just like, letting them die when they get too old? And why is efficiency brought in here? Maybe it’s gods with broad enough portfolios to consistently get people to care about them across worlds, which based on the portfolios we’ve seen among these gods, makes sense.
    Indeed, if anything at all, a God, for example, should be only pleased to have one of his followers surviving the massacre, to spread his word (of the God, not of the follower) in the next world. If that happened to Odin, with a 18 level cleric moving around a newly created world, I bet the barbarians wouldn't have thought magic was for fools.

    (One might argue that other gods are interested to kill a cleric of an opposing god, but that stands true even with the material plane intact, and yet they don't go around smithing clerics of opposing deities).

    The most probably answer to this OOTS's version of Fermi's paradox is that 1) very few survived every time: usually if you feel all shaking, you think of an eartquake and, if you are in the open, you wait it stops, don't planeshift out of fear that the material plane is being destroyed; 2) the few ones are mostly long dead; 3) the very little few (if any) descendants would feel completely out of place in the next world.

    (I mean, If I'd survived to a extinction level event, flying away with my super rocket, and my descendants were living an acceptable life out in the deep space with an hologram deck programmed with a very promiscuous version of Lt. Deanna Troy, would they care to return to an earth populated by intelligent giant cockroaches? I'd bet no.)
    Last edited by Dr.Zero; 2019-11-10 at 10:02 AM.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    easy workaround: If someone exists on World A, and plane-shift out before it's destruction, then somehow survives until the creation of world B, they're simply not going to be able to plane-shift onto world B. they'd just kind of be locked out of it because they weren't built for that world, like trying to put a key into the wrong lock.

    It might be possible for someone in world B to open a gate for the plane-shifter to pass through, but this would likely require knowledge about the shifter, which may be impossible to get.
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2019-11-11 at 11:42 AM.
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Possibly the Snarl calming down is related to the world's remainders.

    The Snarl is obviously a continuity/thematic snarl and so if the setting continues the snarl continues trying to destroy it. If everyone plane shifts to a new plane and the material plan is destroyed, the new plane is probably the same world as far as the Snarl problem goes. Or any solution where the world is only technically destroyed will fail to handle the snarl problem.

    We also have reason to believe that the snarl isn't actually interested in destroying the physical world, as there is a spare material world in the snarl; no continuity/thematic problems in an empty world.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    The Snarl is obviously a continuity/thematic snarl and so if the setting continues the snarl continues trying to destroy it.
    If the snarl is a metaphor for the conflict and contradictions eventually destroy any fictional world, then I’d argue that plane shift will work!

    There’s nothing to stop tiny groups from continuing on in isolation, even after the larger work has fallen apart.

    For example, your group can continue adventuring in Middle Earth, even though JRRT has died and his estate would shut down an organized effort with trademark and copyright laws. But as long as you keep it to your own little demiplane, the snarl won’t shut you down.

    Heck, your My Little Pony Lycan Vampires named Cersei and Daenerys can use the force on platform 9 3/4 to fight both Spider Man and Superman. As long as you can find at least one other person to game with you (or at least read your slash fiction), your desperate little demiplane of weirdness can live on the rest of your life, long after My Little Pony goes off the air and the last poor child named Daenerys turns 18 and legally changes her name.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-11 at 03:40 PM.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    For example, your group can continue adventuring in Middle Earth, even though JRRT has died and his estate would shut down an organized effort with trademark and copyright laws. But as long as you keep it to your own little demiplane, the snarl won’t shut you down.
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  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Indeed, if anything at all, a God, for example, should be only pleased to have one of his followers surviving the massacre, to spread his word (of the God, not of the follower) in the next world.
    No, they wouldn't.

    Because the gods aren't moving a single finger to evacuate the mortals from the doomed world.


    Thor could easily open a Gate to the other planes and evacuate the dwarves and other mortals. But instead nope, the gods are all "In case of doubt, KILL EVERYBODY!"

    The Snarl must be kept secret.

    The mortals must believe the gods supreme above everything.

    And more important the mortals can't be allowed to realize they don't actually need the gods, their souls already go to their aligned planes by default anyway.

    Any mortals that are allowed to survive with knowledge of the Snarl and that the gods aren't that supreme and that it's perfectly possible to live in other places besides whatever ball of dirt the gods come up with, that's just asking for trouble in the long run for the gods very survival.
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2019-11-12 at 02:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Mantas View Post
    "You know, Durkon, I built this planet up from nothing. When I started here, all there was was a snarl. All the other gods said we were daft to build a planet over a snarl, but I built it all the same, just to show then. It got eaten by the snarl...

    ...so we built a five millionth, three hundreth, twenty first one. That one burned down, fell over, then got eaten by the snarl, but the five millionth, three hundreth, and twenty second one stayed up! Or at least, it has been until now."

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Oct 2016
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    Elemental Plane of Water

    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    No, they wouldn't.

    Because the gods aren't moving a single finger to evacuate the mortals from the doomed world.


    Thor could easily open a Gate to the other planes and evacuate the dwarves and other mortals. But instead nope, the gods are all "In case of doubt, KILL EVERYBODY!"

    The Snarl must be kept secret.

    The mortals must believe the gods supreme above everything.

    And more important the mortals can't be allowed to realize they don't actually need the gods, their souls already go to their aligned planes by default anyway.

    Any mortals that are allowed to survive with knowledge of the Snarl and that the gods aren't that supreme and that it's perfectly possible to live in other places besides whatever ball of dirt the gods come up with, that's just asking for trouble in the long run for the gods very survival.
    Once again, Followers of the Bramble is the webcomic you are reading. Here at Order of the Stick, the Gods have very clearly explained they do make real attempts to save their followers before the Snarl escapes; this time, however, the situation with the Gates (and now the Bet with Hel) makes that course of action a much more complicated matter than it otherwise (presumably) has been in the past.

    Thor, specifically, is also having Durkon enact a plan that will save EVERYONE on this world and FOREVER contain the threat of the Snarl--so at the very least that makes one God who clearly cares for mortalkind.

    As far as "The Snarl must be kept secret at all costs," that's demonstrably false considering Thor was quick to "bend the rules" to let Minrah in on the Snarl situation (yes, she sort of had an idea already, but she clearly lacked vital information that Thor didn't particularly care to press her on). Yes, the Snarl isn't common knowledge, but that also doesn't mean that all the Gods are going out of their way to purge Knowledge of the Snarl from existence.

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