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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    It’s almost as if I were using intentionally bad logic.
    I know. I was trying to add to your point.

  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    I know. I was trying to add to your point.
    Thank you!

    Ok, to tie this back to the actual thread... I’ve also assumed the gods create primarily because they enjoy creation.

    And... this is stretching... I also assume that if it were in the gods power to allow shards of their creations to live on after the global shutdowns, most would allow it.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    you think the plane of earth even has the organic life required to sustain other organic life like three dwarves? Since it's the plane of earth, it probably doesn't have plants, water, or animals. I suppose Hylgia can create food and water with cleric powers but... that seems a bit tiresome, and a bit of a risk. What if she somehow gets cut off from Loki when he retreats into the higher planes to escape the snarl? Plus if anything happens to her, Durkon's mom and Kudzu are pretty much screwed.

    are there any other planes better suited for supporting life?
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    you think the plane of earth even has the organic life required to sustain other organic life like three dwarves? Since it's the plane of earth, it probably doesn't have plants, water, or animals. I suppose Hylgia can create food and water with cleric powers but... that seems a bit tiresome, and a bit of a risk. What if she somehow gets cut off from Loki when he retreats into the higher planes to escape the snarl? Plus if anything happens to her, Durkon's mom and Kudzu are pretty much screwed.

    are there any other planes better suited for supporting life?
    Ysgard would work quite nicely. It's a Chaotic Good/Neutral plane, and it has rivers, continents, the works. I believe it has plenty of fields, although I don't see them mentioned in the Wikipedia article. So it probably has ample plant life.

    I don't think Hilgya would mind it. It might be too Chaotic for Sigdi, but I imagine she'd adjust.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2019-11-18 at 11:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    you think the plane of earth even has the organic life required to sustain other organic life like three dwarves?
    *IF* I were running the game, I’d probably rule that all of the inner planes would be unmade along with the material plane.

    So, I’d argue that plane shifting to the plane of earth (or blue cheese ranch dressing) wouldn’t save Higya and company regardless. I’d advise them to visit one of the outer planes instead.

    But, I’m not running the game...
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-18 at 02:44 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    *IF* I were running the game, I’d probably rule that all of the inner planes would be unmade along with the material plane.

    So, I’d argue that plane shifting to the plane of earth (or blue cheese ranch dressing) wouldn’t save Higya and company regardless. I’d advise them to visit one of the outer planes instead.

    But, I’m not running the game...
    Obviously as you said that's only how you would do it, but do we know if the inner planes would survive the world being destroyed? We have been told that outsiders have their memories wiped, but Thor was speaking specifically about Devas, and the only source I can think of is Belkar thinking Roy could hide with Celia, but he's hardly an authority on how the planes work. Is there anything to suggest that they wouldn't be destroyed?

  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    Obviously as you said that's only how you would do it, but do we know if the inner planes would survive the world being destroyed? We have been told that outsiders have their memories wiped, but Thor was speaking specifically about Devas, and the only source I can think of is Belkar thinking Roy could hide with Celia, but he's hardly an authority on how the planes work. Is there anything to suggest that they wouldn't be destroyed?
    The fact that the Snarl is incapable of interplanar travel?
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Put me down for the time interval just requires too much power to survive. If full out Gods, beings considered to be more immortal and much more powerful than a Lich, often die in the passage, then I don't see how a Lich could survive either.

    Though I mean, it determines on the fluff. After all, some stories have things like undead needing something to keep fueling them, if that thing is vengeance, blood, whatever. In a Lich's case 5e has that be souls, but if you wanted something different you could say they need magic. And when the world is torn apart and the rules of reality are reset they may very well lose access to their magic.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    do we know if the inner planes would survive the world being destroyed?
    We can prove they will be destroyed using mathematical induction!

    Suppose the inner planes would *not* be destroyed. Since we know some worlds are cyberpunk, that means that at least one of the inner planes would be “the elemental plane of laser light shows”.

    That means that all subsequent fantasy worlds would have laser light shows elementals, which means there would be an inner plane of “the elemental plane of dancing laser light show elementals”.

    Think of this: The elemental plane of dancing laser light show elementals.

    But we haven’t seen elementals made of dancing elementals made of lasers. If such an awesome thing existed, we would have seen it. Therefore they don’t exist, therefore all inner planes are destroyed.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-18 at 04:26 PM.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    We can prove they will be destroyed using mathematical induction!

    Suppose the inner planes would *not* be destroyed. Since we know some worlds are cyberpunk, that means that at least one of the inner planes would be “the elemental plane of laser light shows”.

    That means that all subsequent fantasy worlds would have laser light shows elementals, which means there would be an inner plane of “the elemental plane of dancing laser light show elementals”.

    Think of this: The elemental plane of dancing laser light show elementals.

    But we haven’t seen elementals made of dancing elementals made of lasers. If such an awesome thing existed, we would have seen it. Therefore they don’t exist, therefore all inner planes are destroyed.
    Counterpoint: the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing, natch.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Ah... that is a good point. That’s clearly left over from a world with BBQ chicken wings.

    It’s the eternal “BBQ Chicken Wings” vs “Laser Light Show” debate. We’ll probably never solve it.

    On a more serious note, if the question is “do some planes survive”, the answer is yes, definitely the outer planes, and perhaps the inner planes as well.

    If the question is “can mortals survive on those planes”, the answer is... maybe?

    I think Xykon could survive in his fortress on the astral plane, and mid-to-high level clerics with a god’s help survive as well. But most folks probably wouldn’t make it very long.

    If the question is “would anyone survive to see the next world?” No, I doubt it. I guess Xykon might; if your adventurous party is unlucky enough to stumble over an epic level lich sleeping on the astral plane, I suppose it doesn’t matter if it’s from this world or a few million years old. But since there don’t seem to be few thousand epic level liches crawling around, I’m going to guess they don’t wake up very much.
    Last edited by Dion; 2019-11-18 at 06:41 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    That’s clearly left over from a world with BBQ chicken wings.
    Maybe from the sentient movie theater snack universe?
    I guess Xykon might; if your adventurous party is unlucky enough to stumble over an epic level lich sleeping on the astral plane, I suppose it doesn’t matter if it’s from this world or a few million years old. But since there don’t seem to be few thousand epic level liches crawling around, I’m going to guess they don’t wake up very much.
    I see two possibilities.

    1) There's some kind of cleanup of the astral plane. Maybe Hel gets to come by personally to collect her soul (Xykon is an evil northerner). Maybe these extra planar things fade away (like the dark one might) after centuries. Maybe the Snarl (when in rampage mode) can see the fortress since it's basically a tiny shard of the material plane.

    2) There are thousands of liches around, but the astral plane is big enough that it's unlikely for anyone to find them or for them to find the new material plane.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    Maybe from the sentient movie theater snack universe?
    I see two possibilities.

    1) There's some kind of cleanup of the astral plane. Maybe Hel gets to come by personally to collect her soul (Xykon is an evil northerner). Maybe these extra planar things fade away (like the dark one might) after centuries. Maybe the Snarl (when in rampage mode) can see the fortress since it's basically a tiny shard of the material plane.

    2) There are thousands of liches around, but the astral plane is big enough that it's unlikely for anyone to find them or for them to find the new material plane.
    3) Marut Inevitables.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-11-18 at 07:07 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    Could/has Xykon beat a Marut? Is there an epic Inevitable if a problem can't be solved by adding more Maruts?

    Edit: looking at the stat block, Xykon could probably walk it. It's only SLA that hurts undead is Chain Lightning... Which liches are immune to.
    Last edited by Riftwolf; 2019-11-19 at 08:44 AM.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Could/has Xykon beat a Marut? Is there an epic Inevitable if a problem can't be solved by adding more Maruts?

    Edit: looking at the stat block, Xykon could probably walk it. It's only SLA that hurts undead is Chain Lightning... Which liches are immune to.
    Of only there existed gods who could make Greater Maruys or something.

    Also, in billions of worlds, its unlikely some one like Xykon hasn't come up. Odds are they can handle those guys.
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  16. - Top - End - #136
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    Could/has Xykon beat a Marut? Is there an epic Inevitable if a problem can't be solved by adding more Maruts?

    Edit: looking at the stat block, Xykon could probably walk it. It's only SLA that hurts undead is Chain Lightning... Which liches are immune to.
    They can also deliver Sonic damage. Which, as we know, is the ultimate damage type in the OOTS world.

    Anyway, the point is that Mechanus has self-replicating gear capable of automatically generate solutions for all anomalities and transgressions. Like mortals who avoid getting killed when the world gets destroyed. Sure, they can live off for a bit in an Outer Plane, but if they also resort to making themselves immortal, that's two transgressions too many for the LN outer plane.
    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2019-11-19 at 09:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gandariel View Post
    We saw how many words there are: Where are all these high level characters that could heavily swing the plot in either direction?
    Dude - even gods starve to death between upheavals. No way are a bunch of mortals making it.
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  18. - Top - End - #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Dude - even gods starve to death between upheavals. No way are a bunch of mortals making it.
    Also, i'm like 60% sure we've seen at least three of them. Given the extreme scarcity of Epic-level characters in this world, I wouldn't be surprised if those three were leftovers, condemned to the Lower Planes at one point or another.
    Last edited by woweedd; 2019-11-19 at 02:43 PM.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    I don't think there's extreme scarcity. Order of the scribble were all epic, and so is Xykon.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenius View Post
    I don't think there's extreme scarcity. Order of the scribble were all epic, and so is Xykon.
    That's seven people. Out of hundreds of millions of people.

    I don't think you're making your point as well as you think.
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Dude - even gods starve to death between upheavals. No way are a bunch of mortals making it.
    I don't think this follows. Gods have no way of obtaining most kinds of sustenance during the interval between worlds. Mortals on the planes, on the other hand, should have no trouble obtaining food if they have access to Plane Shift.

    There's likely nothing stopping a mortal for living for decades (or centuries or longer, if they're a particularly long-lived race) in, say, Arborea, or from having mortal children and grandchildren. There is, on the other hand, something stopping newly-risen gods from being able to exist between worlds for long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    as i said before, i can see two possibilities as to why we don't see characters from worl A popping in to planet B.

    option A: Due purely to the merit of being on an outer plane, people or families of people gradually turn into outsiders such as Fetchlings, Elderan, Fey, or the like just over time. they just become the new outsiders of the next world, and the gods include them in the outsider mind-wipe.

    option B; and my personal favorite. People or families of people who leave planet A, find themselves "locked" out of planet B and unable to port in. They're trying to use their own house key to enter someone else's home, it's just not going to work. They might be able to enter the new world if someone on that world knew about them and opened the door, but that would require the members of the new world both knowing how to plane-shift, and somehow stumbling across the person / family of people in the vast infinity of the planes. it'd be like looking for a needle in a haystack when there is one needle in an infinite number of haystacks that are all infinitely deep.

    so game-changing epic-level characters might be out there, we just can't find them, and they can't get in without us finding them.
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  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's seven people. Out of hundreds of millions of people.

    I don't think you're making your point as well as you think.
    It's enough people to contradict Woweedd's comment. Severn people a generation for thousands of years is enough for three epic, evil, arcane spell-casters to have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I don't think this follows. Gods have no way of obtaining most kinds of sustenance during the interval between worlds. Mortals on the planes, on the other hand, should have no trouble obtaining food if they have access to Plane Shift.
    Mortals are the source of sustenance for gods, if a significant numbers of mortals survive the gods wouldn't starve.

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    It's enough people to contradict Woweedd's comment. Severn people a generation for thousands of years is enough for three epic, evil, arcane spell-casters to have happened.

    Mortals are the source of sustenance for gods, if a significant numbers of mortals survive the gods wouldn't starve.
    I'd bet that any small pockets of survival are more than likely two things,

    1-Very small communities at the largest, so even if they were all worshipping, let's say Thor, they would be hardly affecting his diet, after all if your starving and eat 10 bits of rice, it's not going to affect the fact that you're starving.

    2-Although I must admit this is a bit more speculative, I think that many mortals who escape from the material plane likely aren't going to be clerics, there are probably some high level wizards who just move to the Astral plane, doing research or whatever it is they do.

    So if anyone does survive, my guess is that by the time that the world is remade, they will either be liches and other undead creatures, or the small communities will vanish due to a lack of genetic diversity.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    Mortals are the source of sustenance for gods, if a significant numbers of mortals survive the gods wouldn't starve.
    I'm implicitly assuming here that only a very, very small fraction of mortals survive, probably no more than one out of every million and almost certainly no more than one out of every hundred thousand.

    Have you ever tried to survive on 1/100,000th of your typical diet? There isn't a meaningful difference between that and no food at all.

    Of course, in a world where hundreds of thousands of mortals have Plane Shifted away from the Material Plane by the time the gods destroy it, things might be different. But we have no reason to think that has ever happened.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2019-11-19 at 06:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Player: Bob twists the vault door super hard, that should open it.
    DM: Why would you think that?
    Player: Well, Bob thinks it. And since Bob has high Int and Wis, and a lot of points in Dungeoneering, he would probably know a thing or two about how to open vault doors.
    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quizatzhaderac View Post
    It's enough people to contradict Woweedd's comment.
    I would call 0.000006% of the people "extreme scarcity."

    ETA: I should note that number is for one hundred million. Which means it's the low end, and may well be higher.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-11-19 at 11:47 PM. Reason: Fixed the math
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    That's seven people we know. And all of them were fairly secretive in their dealings (as in, didn't announce to the world "EPIC CHARACTER HERE, DOING EPIC STUFF"), except perhaps for Soon founding the Azure City and Xykon taking over it, so it's entirely possible there's more. It would be trivial for the IFCC to locate three epic-level casters, given that the only qualifications required are 1) evil 2) dead 3) epic 4) spellcaster. No tapping into previous world necessary.
    Last edited by Kelenius; 2019-11-20 at 12:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenius View Post
    That's seven people we know. And all of them were fairly secretive in their dealings (as in, didn't announce to the world "EPIC CHARACTER HERE, DOING EPIC STUFF"), except perhaps for Soon founding the Azure City and Xykon taking over it, so it's entirely possible there's more. It would be trivial for the IFCC to locate three epic-level casters, given that the only qualifications required are 1) evil 2) dead 3) epic 4) spellcaster. No tapping into previous world necessary.
    A. None of the three strike me as subtle. B. I'll note, there actually seems to have been a 5th qualification: Namely, specializing in one of three areas of arcane magic V lacks. Conjuration, Necromancy, and spontaneous casting. Not sure how committed they were to that, but i'd shocked if it wasn't intentional on the IFCC's part.

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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenius View Post
    That's seven people we know. And all of them were fairly secretive in their dealings (as in, didn't announce to the world "EPIC CHARACTER HERE, DOING EPIC STUFF"), except perhaps for Soon founding the Azure City and Xykon taking over it, so it's entirely possible there's more. It would be trivial for the IFCC to locate three epic-level casters, given that the only qualifications required are 1) evil 2) dead 3) epic 4) spellcaster. No tapping into previous world necessary.
    I don't disagree that they likely didn't need to tap into previous worlds. I do disagree that epic characters in general (not even limiting it to just casters) are not extremely scarce. Having even a hundred over 1,200 years among the entire population of the world that existed since then wiuld give a good choice of casters while still being extremely scarce.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2019-11-20 at 01:20 AM.
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    Default Re: On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

    I guess I should clarify then that when I said that there isn't an extreme scarcity of epic-level characters, I meant "you can find one if you look for one", not "they are common among the population".

    Quote Originally Posted by woweedd View Post
    A. None of the three strike me as subtle. B. I'll note, there actually seems to have been a 5th qualification: Namely, specializing in one of three areas of arcane magic V lacks. Conjuration, Necromancy, and spontaneous casting. Not sure how committed they were to that, but i'd shocked if it wasn't intentional on the IFCC's part.
    A) Do they, though? Xykon doesn't seem like a subtle person either, but he was largely unknown to the world for a very long time. In fact, I'm not even sure if his existence is common knowledge even after the fall of Azure City. For B) that's a good point - they were likely picked among other candidates for that reason, but it probably wasn't a requirement.

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