On Hylgia Plane Shifting out

[Peelee]

I guess I should clarify then that when I said that there isn't an extreme scarcity of epic-level characters, I meant "you can find one if you look for one"

Oh, I getcha. I appreciate it, that's even easier to dispute. Haley disagrees with you.

[Kelenius]

Oh, I getcha. I appreciate it, that's even easier to dispute. Haley disagrees with you.

She's looking specifically for clerics, and funnily enough, none of the epic characters that we know are clerics. And she doesn't say there are no clerics of that level - just that she doesn't think there are any.

[Peelee]

She's looking specifically for clerics, and funnily enough, none of the epic characters that we know are clerics. And she doesn't say there are no clerics of that level - just that she doesn't think there are any.

So there isn't an extreme scarcity of epic-level characters, you can find one if you look for one, so long as it's not a cleric? That's a mighty specific argument there.

[Emanick]

So there isn't an extreme scarcity of epic-level characters, you can find one if you look for one, so long as it's not a cleric? That's a mighty specific argument there.

To be fair, "you can find an epic level character if you look for one" is probably at least 11 times as likely to be true as "you can find an epic level cleric if you look for one." Perhaps moreso, since high level clerics may tend to end up running churches rather than continuing to adventure.

I should also point out that Haley isn't in a great position to know whether there are any level 17+ clerics in the world. That kind of information probably isn't terribly public, and her search for a cleric who could resurrect Roy mostly consisted of wandering around the wilderness and then talking to a few people in Greysky City (plus the Oracle detour, but Belkar obviously ruined that). If you teleported to all the major cities in the world and talked with well-connected people in each of them, maybe with a few bribes, then maybe you'd be in a better position to know the prevalence of high-level or epic characters.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think this follows. Gods have no way of obtaining most kinds of sustenance during the interval between worlds. Mortals on the planes, on the other hand, should have no trouble obtaining food if they have access to Plane Shift.

There's likely nothing stopping a mortal for living for decades (or centuries or longer, if they're a particularly long-lived race) in, say, Arborea, or from having mortal children and grandchildren. There is, on the other hand, something stopping newly-risen gods from being able to exist between worlds for long.

But would magic even work after the world is destroyed? I mean, lets just flat out say Clerical Magic is right out cause the gods wouldn't bother granting it, but how about Arcane Magic? After all it's rules and format may have varied from world to world by quite a bit.

[Resileaf]

I am under no impression that epic characters are common, but in all the time the world has existed, I don't see why it should be evident that epic characters are so rare that it's impossible to have found three evil casters. It's a self-aware D&D world, and no one ever questions that high level threats exist, so why is it so unbelievable that the casters used for the splice came from this one? Only a generation ago, the Order of the Scribble was an active group of epic adventurers, surely they fought their share of epic threats. The OotS world is a world of campaigns and adventurers, and everyone knows that you gain levels by adventuring. Surely there have been enough campaigns in the past for it to be possible that those three casters were the villains of such campaigns.

[Dion]

Do we know the approximate levels of each of the high clerics at the godsmoot, based on the spells they used to attack or defend the vampires?

Edit: <joke>I am aware that “high cleric” and “highest level cleric” aren’t synonyms, but im looking for any information I can misconstrue and use to buttress my wild and otherwise unsupportable assertions. </joke>

[Aidan]

So there isn't an extreme scarcity of epic-level characters, you can find one if you look for one, so long as it's not a cleric? That's a mighty specific argument there.

While I agree with the premise that epic level characters are scarce, the sort of search Haley was conducting was very different from just searching for epic level clerics. She was just looking for a cleric that could ressurect Roy, so that means what? A 17+ level cleric I believe. To find one she was going from town to town looking for temples.
Most epic level characters don't just sit around in urban areas waiting for someone to need them, they're either in their own stronghold or on some epic quest.

Granted, even if Haley was instead looking for an epic level cleric, she would likely have much more difficulty (where would she even start). Regardless of if there are any epic level clerics, I would assume there are more level 17 clerics than epic clerics.

[The Pilgrim]

I am pretty sure the three spliced souls are from this world's tenure. Because if they were from a past world:
1) Their souls would have already been absorbed by the relevant outer plane, the Fiends unable to retrieve them.
2) The Fiends wouldn't even remember them or their deeds after the mind wipe.

[Emanick]

But would magic even work after the world is destroyed? I mean, lets just flat out say Clerical Magic is right out cause the gods wouldn't bother granting it, but how about Arcane Magic? After all it's rules and format may have varied from world to world by quite a bit.

I don't think we have enough information to answer this question, but I wouldn't assume that the gods would stop granting spells to their followers after the world was destroyed. After all, that could cause them to lose out on Worship, Dedication, and maybe even Belief. There's no plausible reason I can think of for the gods to not continue to grant spells to any remaining followers after the Snarl breaks loose.

[RatElemental]

To be fair, "you can find an epic level character if you look for one" is probably at least 11 times as likely to be true as "you can find an epic level cleric if you look for one." Perhaps moreso, since high level clerics may tend to end up running churches rather than continuing to adventure.

I should also point out that Haley isn't in a great position to know whether there are any level 17+ clerics in the world. That kind of information probably isn't terribly public, and her search for a cleric who could resurrect Roy mostly consisted of wandering around the wilderness and then talking to a few people in Greysky City (plus the Oracle detour, but Belkar obviously ruined that). If you teleported to all the major cities in the world and talked with well-connected people in each of them, maybe with a few bribes, then maybe you'd be in a better position to know the prevalence of high-level or epic characters.

To be even more fair "You can find an epic level character if you look for one and they don't have to be currently alive." Is even more likely than "You can find an epic level character if you look for one."

[Riftwolf]

I don't think we have enough information to answer this question, but I wouldn't assume that the gods would stop granting spells to their followers after the world was destroyed. After all, that could cause them to lose out on Worship, Dedication, and maybe even Belief. There's no plausible reason I can think of for the gods to not continue to grant spells to any remaining followers after the Snarl breaks loose.

Maybe they don't give new clerics (ie children of planar exiles) spells so their expenditure slowly spins down. As for arcane magic: pretty sure the Gods control that too, only they can be a bit harsher because arcane magic is a bunch of bug exploits to divine magics published cheat codes.

[ElderSage]

Granted, even if Haley was instead looking for an epic level cleric, she would likely have much more difficulty (where would she even start). Regardless of if there are any epic level clerics, I would assume there are more level 17 clerics than epic clerics.

I mean, unless someone purposely went through wiping out the level 17 clerics for some reason, there probably are.

[Dion]

I don't recall Haley having trouble locating a 17th level cleric during the “Don’t Split the Party” storyline?

[Peelee]

I don't recall Haley having trouble locating a 17th level cleric during the “Don’t Split the Party” storyline?

Panel 5. Cheers!

[Dion]

Panel 5. Cheers!

Sure, but Belkar helped her find one. In the same panel, even!

[Peelee]

Belkar helped

Haley would dispute that. In the same panel, even!

ETA: Also, there's no indication Redcloak was 17th level at that time.

[Dion]

Haley would dispute that. In the same panel, even!

ETA: Also, there's no indication Redcloak was 17th level at that time.

Good point! RedCloak wasn’t “known” to be a 17th level cleric until 826.

Can someone help me remember why I’m arguing in the first place? Something about planeshift?

[woweedd]

Good point! RedCloak wasn’t “known” to be a 17th level cleric until 826.

Can someone help me remember why I’m arguing in the first place? Something about planeshift?

I would say that it’s pretty obvious Redcloak didn’t reach 17th level until 826: he explicitly mentions his “new spell level”.

[Peelee]

Can someone help me remember why I’m arguing in the first place? Something about planeshift?

Tonsies of funsies?

[Dion]

Tonsies of funsies?

Oh yeah! That’s right.

[mjasghar]

With regards to memory wipe and time etc
I’m pretty sure there was a post by the Giant that the world was created already with grown creatures with false memories
Specifically with regards to Familicde and there being mature black dragons since this world has been around for less time then it would have taken for a dragon to reach ancient age category from egg stage
Extrapolating that to the outer planes one would assume that at the start they weren’t empty of dead souls as the outsiders would get suspicious
So maybe the gods left some souls from previous worlds who were then shaped into the equivalent for this iteration - so an evil corp exec with top range cyberware would be turned into an evil epic caster

[Peelee]

With regards to memory wipe and time etc
I’m pretty sure there was a post by the Giant that the world was created already with grown creatures with false memories
Specifically with regards to Familicde and there being mature black dragons since this world has been around for less time then it would have taken for a dragon to reach ancient age category from egg stage

Nothing about false memories (which I never even thought would have been the case), at least in the Famulicide bit.

[mjasghar]

1.) The people created at the moment of the planet's creation were all unrelated to each other, or perhaps only related in small groups—a family of 5 or 10 might have been created, but with no relation to all the other families being simultaneously created. Why? Because.
If you create a family that suggests some in that family are older - which by necessity means false memories
Add in that some of those families are dragons adults are going to be hundreds of years old
And I refer you to my point about the outer planes being empty of petitioners being unlikely

[RatElemental]

1.) The people created at the moment of the planet's creation were all unrelated to each other, or perhaps only related in small groups—a family of 5 or 10 might have been created, but with no relation to all the other families being simultaneously created. Why? Because.
If you create a family that suggests some in that family are older - which by necessity means false memories
Add in that some of those families are dragons adults are going to be hundreds of years old
And I refer you to my point about the outer planes being empty of petitioners being unlikely

Emphasis mine.

No, it doesn't.

I'm pretty sure an adult can understand the concept of having been poofed into existence five minutes ago fully grown by a literal god. Unless you're counting basic life skills being programmed into them as being false memories, I guess.

[Precure]

Who is Hylgia?

[Peelee]

Who is Hylgia?

Ya know, I didn't even notice that until you pointed it out.

[Schroeswald]

Ya know, I didn't even notice that until you pointed it out.

I on the other hand notice how often so many people consistently misspell it like that and I have no clue why.