The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed
The Order of the Stick: Utterly Dwarfed - Coming in December and available for pre-order now
Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 160
  1. - Top - End - #91
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    No, that's how things work. If you haven't internalized something, it is unlikely that you would ever put that message into something you write without meaning to. Ask yourself one simple question: Would a woman - a woman with no knowledge of feminist theory - have written those scenes the same way, with Jane Bond and male side characters?
    I have literally no idea. Because no two women writers are the same, but from just my own admittedly limited viewing patterns women writers tend to make crappy romances the other way involving one or more guys performing weird acts to prove their value so the woman can make a dramatic choice of who she gets to bone. In that fantasy men are there basically to run around and do things for her despite the female clearly leading on multiple men. It's pretty gross, but that's the romance genre for you.

    But that's a woman trying to write a romance that caters to their target audience: women who enjoy romance stories. I don't think I've seen a female writer trying to write a romance catering to the male audience of an action spy thriller. Especially one in which the core premise is everyone in the spy world is out of themselves and no one is "good." Which has been a recurring theme throughout the new Bond. The old M betrayed one of her best agents. Bond is possibly a sociopath. Every spy he encounters is playing their own often nefarious game, be they male or female.

    Going to Skyfall, Bond seducing and being seduced by the enemy agent then revealing he doesn't care about them for the security of the mission. That's one-hundred percent pure spy movie gold right there. Easily one of the most visceral scenes in the movie. It's only when we get into the backstory as a former sex slave that the questions of her value came up. But, it's really easy to see why the writers decided to go that route. They needed a backstory to make her sympathetic to the viewer and spark the hope that she can be redeemed if she is removed from the evil influences in her life. Trafficking is a really efficient way to hit all those marks. Possibly the most efficient.

    It's not the only way, and maybe a female writer would have chosen differently. But for the actual textual story that's pretty much a slam dunk. Now, from the metatextual, that's where it becomes problematic. Personally, I've always found the best method of dealing with this is to look at the writers work as a whole. John Logan was the main writer with Purvis and Wade as support. From the other movies Logan has written, I don't really see women taking a recurring role as object. Mind you, I also haven't seen all of them, so maybe it is there in some of his other works. But that's a more fair viewing than seeing one thing someone has written, looking at a very clearly not intended messages and reducing all their morals about it.

  2. - Top - End - #92
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    When talking about internalized ideas that pop up in an author's writing, I don't think gender is the best example. Men and women can both internalize all kinds of ideas, which can lead to all sorts of stories, and especially these days, it's easy to anonymously enjoy and even write stories typically associated with the opposite gender. I think different time periods would offer a better point of comparison. Zeitgeist, generation gap and all that - values change, and that can be seen in the stories.
    How were women written in the 19th century novels about action, subterfuge, and secret missions in the service of the crown? The Three Musketeers, for example, has some of that. What was the same, and what was different? What was typical for such stories of that time tells us what people thought normal in those stories. It's not exactly "internalized", but close.

    Novels written long ago can, at their best, show a different viewpoint and different thought processes. Good historical novels can do the same. On the other hand, bad novels set in a "historical" setting are sometimes little more than a hand-wave to explain why it's acceptable for the protagonists to act the way they act. I guess that's true for all novels, but historical stuff stands out because it's often possible to actually know something about the real morality systems and values people had in a specific time period. It's fuzzier with fantasy stuff etc., because there's no acceptable baseline. That doesn't mean invented stuff can't be good, though.

    There is a really cool novel about an alternate morality system I read once, though. The book was called Majra, I believe, and it was basically about a culture where lying was acceptable and expected. Lying, conning, tall tales, etc. It was basically portrayed the same as telling fables to kids, or knowing that you shouldn't take everything a used car salesman says at face value, with its own taboos about what lies are acceptable and what aren't. I'm not sure how well it'd hold up on re-reading, but at the time, finding such a different morality system was really intriguing to me.


    Protagonist centered morality is extremely common in Chinese high-powered fantasy stuff and cultivation novels, and in many other Asian novels as well. The typical plot goes like this: the protagonist is weak, and his family is weak, so he's humiliated and abused individually, and his family suffers / suffered / is in poverty / gets killed off. This is considered evil, and the perpetrators are in the wrong. Then the progatonist becomes strong, starts traveling to become stronger, etc. He might avenge his personal humiliation straight away, or it might be his long-term goal. As he travels, he enters a town. Someone of his age slights the protagonist. He humiliates and abuses this person, things escalate, and eventually he has killed their whole clan or sect or school or town. This is considered heroic. Typically, the first act the evil youngster of the day starts with is no different from what the protagonist does all the time. Stuff like "I really want this magical item that will make me more powerful, I'll get it any way I can".

    There is a constant theme of "might makes right". Weak suffer, because they're weak. However, altruism is considered weakness or foolishness. Honor - usually called 'face' as in 'lcausing someone to lose face' - is of utmost importance. The strong do not give face to the weak. However, if you accidentally insult someone stronger than you, you're in for a beating, or worse. The "evil" guys get beaten, because they insulted the protagonist's honor. The protagonist doesn't give face to others and/or insults them to their face, because he's strong.


    Korean novels have a different morality I haven't quite figured out. Loner protagonists as very common, but they also want a family or community or organization, so they're not exactly loners. They break the rules and act selfishly, except their selfishness is in service of their chosen sub-group, at the expense of others. Sometimes it's nationalism, sometimes it's over their home town or family and friends, but the utter disregard for the lives of everyone outside this group probably comes under this protagonist centered morality in some way.


    Have romantic comedies been mentioned yet? They're often quite silly if taken at face value. Is the protagonist hopelessly in love, or a stalker? In the movies, he's almost always the good guy, but getting that sort of attention in the real world could be all sorts of creepy. Perhaps the whole "Hollywood proposal" done in public in front of the whole family could be argued to be like this. If it is truly a question, that's putting the other person under a whole lot of pressure to immediately and publicly say yes to a very important, life-changing decision...
    Last edited by endoperez; 2019-11-13 at 02:26 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #93
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Or no, if you think your family opposes the match. But Hollywood doesn't like unhappy endings.

    Public proposals and answers used to be about making sure as many people as possible knew about your status. The parallels with using social media for the same are obvious, yes?

  4. - Top - End - #94
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post

    The novel I am told (haven’t read it) states that Goldfinger raped her when she was a child ‘making’ her a lesbian and that James’s rape turned her straight again. Yeah.
    I've read it. It was her uncle, not Goldfinger:

    Bond looked down into the deep blue-violet eyes that were no longer hard, imperious. He bent and kissed them lightly. He said, 'They told me you only liked women.'

    She said, 'I never met a man before.' The toughness came back into her voice. 'I come from the South. You know the definition of a virgin down there? Well, it's a girl who can run faster than her brother. In my case I couldn't run as fast as my uncle. I was twelve. That's not so good, James. You ought to be able to guess that.'
    As far as I can tell, Goldfinger is not related to her in any way.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  5. - Top - End - #95
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    The reveal about Bond not caring about the woman he seduced was very clearly about spy world intrigue. It's meant to show espionage as a very dangerous business, where you can never fully trust anyone, and that Bond, a particularly skilled spy, is no exception. Saying it's about "sex traffic victims only existing to be used by powerful men" is stretching and twisting the message reeeeeeeeally hard.

    The one about him "raping" someone after a fight I just barely remember... But IIRC, Bond and the girl were sparring and trying to impress ach other. I think it was more a case of "these two are so cool and badass, they flirt by fighting and throwing verbal jabs at each other!"

    Besides... Unless Bond borrowed lipstick from Poison Ivy, the girl clearly consented to their intercourse (although the kiss itself could be considered sexual harassment or abuse... But then again I've never seen a consensual romantic kiss (real or fictional) preceded by "Do you consent to a kiss?", since that sounds like a terrible mood-killer). For better or worse, most human romantic interactions are made through insinuations and non-verbal language (especially in cinema, where everyone is attractive, charming and glamorous).

    That's not to say that Bond doesn't do a lot of morally reprehensible stuff. And in the older movies he's quite a bit of a jerk... And arguably even presented as such (although in a more "lovable jerk" way). It doesn't hold up very well by modern standards... But what can we expect from books / movies over 30 yo?
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-11-13 at 03:37 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #96
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Thanks for the corrections regarding the novel.
    Dr. No means no, dude.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2019-11-13 at 03:52 PM.
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Forum Wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  7. - Top - End - #97
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Though I liked the show when I was younger, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was really bad about this. Anyone who joined the main cast was pretty much given a Get Out Of Jail Free card. They could have committed multiple murders and the most they'd get was a few snarky comments.

    Angel: Mass murder and attempted genocide. Okay, so he had some excuse in that he was possessed by a literal demon and was trying to repent, but given how easy it was to get him repossessed (I've forgotten exactly how many times it happened) it's really arguable whether it wouldn't make the world a much safer place just to get rid of him.

    Anya: Kills god only knows how many people, but unlike Angel, shows zero desire to repent. Only reason she stops is because she loses her powers. Becomes a member of the main cast with very little fuss.

    Spike: Kills god only knows how many people and would probably find the concept of repentance to be hilarious. Becomes a member of the main cast, because, according to the writers, with Cordelia gone they needed a character to fill the 'obnoxiously honest' role.

    Willow: Attempts to wipe out the human race and very nearly succeeds. Is forgiven remarkably quickly.

    The last one is particularly bad because Willow's whole mental breakdown is justified on the grounds that her girlfriend was killed. But if you think about it, every one of the vampires in the series – the ones that Buffy and co stake without a second thought – were once human. Which means that every one of them would have had family members, lovers, etc, who would have been just as heartbroken over their murder as Willow was over her ex – probably more so. But they don't all start an apocalypse in retaliation. Willow losing her girlfriend is an epic tragedy that justifies an apocalyptic temper tantrum, while the death of Random Teenager #3947 (soon to become Random Vampire #16893) doesn't matter.
    Last edited by Saph; 2019-11-13 at 04:01 PM.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #10 in the series, Fallen, is out as of September 2019. For updates, check my blog!

  8. - Top - End - #98
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kitten Champion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Thanks for the corrections regarding the novel.
    Dr. No means no, dude.
    Given that Ian Fleming stated that “[She] only needed the right man to come along and perform the laying on of hands in order to cure her psycho-pathological malady (Her homosexuality)” I'm not inclined towards apologizing for what really appears to be "corrective" rape.

  9. - Top - End - #99
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Given that Ian Fleming stated that “[She] only needed the right man to come along and perform the laying on of hands in order to cure her psycho-pathological malady (Her homosexuality)” I'm not inclined towards apologizing for what really appears to be "corrective" rape.
    I agree that the way the book did it - with her and Bond not getting together at all until after Goldfinger is dead, was better.

    Still a pretty poor idea - but no rape present.
    Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
    New Marut Avatar by Linkele

  10. - Top - End - #100
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Vinyadan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    But then again I've never seen a consensual romantic kiss (real or fictional) preceded by "Do you consent to a kiss?", since that sounds like a terrible mood-killer). For better or worse, most human romantic interactions are made through insinuations and non-verbal language (especially in cinema, where everyone is attractive, charming and glamorous).
    Does "Say kiss me" count?
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  11. - Top - End - #101
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Gnoman's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    That's not to say that Bond doesn't do a lot of morally reprehensible stuff. And in the older movies he's quite a bit of a jerk... And arguably even presented as such (although in a more "lovable jerk" way). It doesn't hold up very well by modern standards... But what can we expect from books / movies over 30 yo?
    There's a few things that are important when analyzing Bond as a character.

    1. The older movies are generally loose (often very loose) adaptations of the books, and a lot of the newer ones aren't based on any book at all. This isn't exactly a vindication of the character (there were several bits in the book that come off as worse than anything on film, although usually this was racism rather than man/woman issues), but there's a fair bit of Flanderization going on. Especially in the later films, the character's based on the pop-culture image of James Bond much more than he is on the original Fleming novels. Even the older ones were mostly released after Fleming's totally surprising early death from poor diet and massive consumption of alcohol and tobacco in 1964.

    2. Fleming was kind of messed up in a lot of ways. There's evidence that his philosophical outlook was not entirely in line with what a Proper British Gentleman of his era and station was supposed to believe, and there's strong evidence of board-inappropriate parts of his life that may explain some of the more troublesome passages, not to mention a very real possibility that he wasn't entirely straight.

    3. Fleming is on record (although I can't find the quote easily because I keep getting movie criticism in google) as saying that Bond was written as a bad person on purpose. This is supported by the way women are portrayed in several of the early novels - Bond is misogynistic and dismissive, only for the women in question to outplay and outwit him (when they are opposed to him) or do the lion's share of the work that doesn't involve accurate shooting while figuring everything out well before Bond did. Half the time there was a "damsel in distress" moment it was because the story would have ended halfway through otherwise because the woman had figured everything out. That didn't make it to screen.

  12. - Top - End - #102
    Ettin in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Bond in the books is pretty much the perfect espionage agent. A sociopath without ties who can be discarded at a moment's notice with no regrets. Trying to analyze his morality is about as useful as trying to decide if a guard dog is good or bad.

  13. - Top - End - #103
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Bond in the books is pretty much the perfect espionage agent. A sociopath without ties who can be discarded at a moment's notice with no regrets. Trying to analyze his morality is about as useful as trying to decide if a guard dog is good or bad.
    Wasn't John Le Carré's assesment of Bond that he was perfect traitor material?
    "Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced."
    Gehm's corollary to Clarke's Third Law



    Forum Wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

  14. - Top - End - #104
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Bond in the books is pretty much the perfect espionage agent. A sociopath without ties who can be discarded at a moment's notice with no regrets. Trying to analyze his morality is about as useful as trying to decide if a guard dog is good or bad.
    People toss around that word way too casually. Bond in the books is clearly not a nice person, but he's just as clearly not a sociopath – he's ruthless, but he has a sense of morality, and he makes an effort to avoid harming noncombatants. He's honestly probably more ethical that most real-world intelligence agents (though that's a low bar).
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #10 in the series, Fallen, is out as of September 2019. For updates, check my blog!

  15. - Top - End - #105
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    I think protagonist-centered morality is more common in comedies nowadays... Mostly because they aren't meant to be taken very seriously and often haven't much thought put into the plot beyond "What premise would lead to a greater number of funny scenes?".

    It's relatively common to have authority figures shown as mean and/or short-sighted even when they are just doing their job. e.g.: The city officer from Ghost Busters... (Although I guess a 30+ yo movie doesn't really count as "nowadays").
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2019-11-13 at 08:15 PM. Reason: Stupid cel phone virtual keyboard...

  16. - Top - End - #106
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Kobold

    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Though I liked the show when I was younger, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was really bad about this. Anyone who joined the main cast was pretty much given a Get Out Of Jail Free card. They could have committed multiple murders and the most they'd get was a few snarky comments.
    Buffy makes no pretence of dispensing "justice". The morality in that show is purely "wartime morality", where what you do matters far less than whom you do it to. We don't kill vampires because they're "evil", we kill them because they're vampires, and vampires are antagonistic and dangerous. Nobody cares if it's fair or just, it's simply what needs to be done in order for "us" to be safe.

    That's why vampires (and others, llike Anya) who are willing to stop and talk, and change sides, get a pass. And conversely, we don't kill humans even if they are clearly evil, unless they are actively aligned with the enemy and even then only in the last resort. That's what marked Faith's change of sides, and Willow's going off the rails.

    It's easy to see this mindset as antithetical to morality, and if you equate morality with justice, it is. Wartime is by definition a time when the normal rules of justice are suspended, at least in so far as dealing with the enemy is concerned.

    But there is, still, a separate moral dimension. Anya and Willow both have episodes where they kill humans, but they are forgiven when they show clear repentance. Faith, conversely, when an aghast Buffy points out that she just killed a human, promptly replies: "I don't care". That's what marks her "fall" as a real change of sides, not just a transitory lapse.
    "None of us likes to be hated, none of us likes to be shunned. A natural result of these conditions is, that we consciously or unconsciously pay more attention to tuning our opinions to our neighbor’s pitch and preserving his approval than we do to examining the opinions searchingly and seeing to it that they are right and sound." - Mark Twain

  17. - Top - End - #107
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    London, England.

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by veti View Post
    Buffy makes no pretence of dispensing "justice". The morality in that show is purely "wartime morality", where what you do matters far less than whom you do it to. We don't kill vampires because they're "evil", we kill them because they're vampires, and vampires are antagonistic and dangerous. Nobody cares if it's fair or just, it's simply what needs to be done in order for "us" to be safe.
    But that doesn't work either, because if we're looking at it from a viewpoint of "whatever needs to be done to make humans safe", then Willow should absolutely not have gotten a pass. She literally tries to kill every human being on the planet. There's no possible way you can justify that, and if it had been a random villain of the week then they would have been killed at the end of the story arc and no-one would have given it a second thought.

    Willow gets forgiven because she's a main character and so she's held to different standards. 'Protagonist centered morality' is a pretty fair description of that.
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #10 in the series, Fallen, is out as of September 2019. For updates, check my blog!

  18. - Top - End - #108
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    England
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    But that doesn't work either, because if we're looking at it from a viewpoint of "whatever needs to be done to make humans safe", then Willow should absolutely not have gotten a pass. She literally tries to kill every human being on the planet. There's no possible way you can justify that, and if it had been a random villain of the week then they would have been killed at the end of the story arc and no-one would have given it a second thought.

    Willow gets forgiven because she's a main character and so she's held to different standards. 'Protagonist centered morality' is a pretty fair description of that.
    But they didn't stop Willow really. They didn't kill her or knock her out. Xander spoke to her and she realized she's gone nuts and stopped on her own. I really can't think of any other villain they faced who could have been persuaded to not try to destroy the world
    Also going on the 'war time morality' thing. Willow was a valuable ally. She had risked her life multiple times to help save the world and if turned could do so again. This is a good reason for not killing her both as a future asset and in recognition of all the good she had already done

    Interestingly I think Buffy's refusal to even consider killing Dawn to save the entire multiverse was much worse. But I didn't get the impression we were meant to admire Buffy for this decision quite the contrary
    Last edited by comicshorse; 2019-11-14 at 05:20 AM.
    All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem

  19. - Top - End - #109
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Brother Oni's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Cippa's River Meadow
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by endoperez View Post
    Honor - usually called 'face' as in 'lcausing someone to lose face' - is of utmost importance. The strong do not give face to the weak. However, if you accidentally insult someone stronger than you, you're in for a beating, or worse. The "evil" guys get beaten, because they insulted the protagonist's honor. The protagonist doesn't give face to others and/or insults them to their face, because he's strong.
    The Chinese concept of 'face' is really difficult to translate into Western concepts. A combination of honor and respectability is probably the best description.

    I remember in the film Wong Fei Hung, where Fei Hung is about to get into a fight with a group of local troublemakers and the newly installed magistrate forestalls the fight by saying 'It's my first day, give me some face'.

    In most Western situations, clamping down hard on both sides of the altercation would be a sign of strength as a 'zero tolerance' style "I don't put up with bull manure" stance.
    In this case, the new magistrate would lose 'face' by clamping down as neither side respects him enough to not start trouble and by getting involved, he has to enforce his authority. This has the contradictory effect of showing that he's incompetent, since he's unable to keep the peace by reputation alone, which he won't have as he's brand new in the position.

    As I said, it's complicated.

  20. - Top - End - #110
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Buffy has an added issue that it was being written by multiple writers who often were at odds with each other over individual characters and directions that they wanted the show to go. Mind you, I'm strongly in the Death of the Author camp, and exactly what show the writers were intending to make isn't especially pertinent, but I think it is worth noting.

    One thing that I think does seem to show up consistent is that 'have gotten a pass,' doesn't seem to be a relevant category. Yes, the Slayer/Watcher/Scoobie gangs spend some time worrying about whether someone is 'evil' or not, but mostly they worry whether someone is 'a threat*.' Willow and Anya kill a bunch of people, but then are fine/normal/no more threat of being the big bad of the coming week than anyone else -- then they are fine, roll out the welcome wagon and invite their murderous-but-no-longer-dangerous selves back into the fold. It's not about getting a pass, being on the hook, or rendering judgment. Angel have his soul removed and turn bad? Doesn't matter that he had no agency in the event, time to get out the sharp implements. Heck, during Willow's turn-to-darkness, if Spike hadn't been off getting a soul at the time, Buffy would have left her sister with him for protection, and that was right after he had just attempted to rape Buffy**. But he couldn't harm Dawn, so no problem (again, threat-based morality more than anything).
    *and, if so, whether they are human/team human. veti correctly points out that whether the response to you being evil is 'you belong in jail' or '<stab!stab!stab!>' is related to which side of the 'war' you are on.
    **Mind you, that was effectively a different Spike, as the writer's room was at war over whether the Buffy-Spike romance was an Angel-replacement scenario which would see Spike redeemed or a metaphor for toxic rebound relationships. During the 90s Spike and ST:V's Captain Janeway continuously battled for winning the Hawkeye Pierce award for episode-specific characterization.

    tl/dr: While Buffy has some aspects of protagonist centered morality, it's a nightmare to suss out amidst the inconsistent plot directions and the in-universe issue that the team isn't really looking to pass moral judgement so much as being against whomever is currently a threat to humans (and once you stop being a threat, passing judgment on your previous actions seems not to be a major priority).

  21. - Top - End - #111
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tyndmyr's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Maryland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Anyways, I want to second the Sword of Truth series which was just such absolute garbage.
    But it's okay because he has "moral clarity!" Or something.

    Which I guess is "he was really sure he was right." Clearly a flawless system.
    Back from a lengthy vacation from Giantitp. I've been dabbling with 3d printer technology and game design, PM if you're curious.

    "World domination is such an ugly phrase. I prefer to call it world optimization."

    New: Tyndmyr has a game shop!

  22. - Top - End - #112
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    But it's okay because he has "moral clarity!" Or something.

    Which I guess is "he was really sure he was right." Clearly a flawless system.
    Is it really protagonist centered morality here though? The antagonists in the series were so ridiculously over the top evil (and communist!) that it didn't take much for the protagonist to be in the right.

  23. - Top - End - #113
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Is it really protagonist centered morality here though? The antagonists in the series were so ridiculously over the top evil (and communist!) that it didn't take much for the protagonist to be in the right.
    Even then, they failed.

    I wish I hadn't spent any money or reading time on that series when I was younger.

  24. - Top - End - #114
    Titan in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2008

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Is it really protagonist centered morality here though? The antagonists in the series were so ridiculously over the top evil (and communist!) that it didn't take much for the protagonist to be in the right.
    Richard once charged in a straight battle formation through a bunch of unarmored hippies, killing many of them. This is not portrayed as something horrible done out of necessity. The killing of the hippies is in itself presented as a good thing, because the hippies were getting in the way of what the glorious ruler Richard wanted to do.

    Many of the ridiculously over the top communist villains also attacked unarmed civilians. In each of those instances the story frames it as evil. Hell, at one point the story shows a villain forcibly washing someone’s hair and condemns it more than a bunch of the horrible crap Richard pulls.

    Then there’s the BDSM torture witches. When the villains use them, it’s bad. When Richard takes over the institution they’re good. Their methods do not appear to have changed with regimes all that much. It’s just now ok to use BDSM torture witches.

    That’s pretty much pinnacle protagonist centered morality to me.
    Last edited by Dienekes; 2019-11-14 at 05:48 PM.

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Richard once charged in a straight battle formation through a bunch of unarmored hippies, killing many of them. This is not portrayed as something horrible done out of necessity. The killing of the hippies is in itself presented as a good thing, because the hippies were getting in the way of what the glorious ruler Richard wanted to do.

    Many of the ridiculously over the top communist villains also attacked unarmed civilians. In each of those instances the story frames it as evil. Hell, at one point the story shows a villain forcibly washing someone’s hair and condemns it more than a bunch of the horrible crap Richard pulls.

    Then there’s the BDSM torture witches. When the villains use them, it’s bad. When Richard takes over the institution they’re good. Their methods do not appear to have changed with regimes all that much. It’s just now ok to use BDSM torture witches.

    That’s pretty much pinnacle protagonist centered morality to me.
    And the torture witches are some of the better characters in the series in my opinion. They pretty much all freely admit that Richard holds their loyalty because he doesn't harm them like the previous rulers have, and I don't think any of them shown on screen have been shown to really consider people as people.

    They are the most honest characters in the series.

  26. - Top - End - #116
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Mar 2010

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Richard once charged in a straight battle formation through a bunch of unarmored hippies, killing many of them. This is not portrayed as something horrible done out of necessity. The killing of the hippies is in itself presented as a good thing, because the hippies were getting in the way of what the glorious ruler Richard wanted to do.

    Many of the ridiculously over the top communist villains also attacked unarmed civilians. In each of those instances the story frames it as evil. Hell, at one point the story shows a villain forcibly washing someone’s hair and condemns it more than a bunch of the horrible crap Richard pulls.
    I dont recall the charging through hippies (maybe it was after I stopped reading this) but fair enough this would count.

    Then there’s the BDSM torture witches. When the villains use them, it’s bad. When Richard takes over the institution they’re good. Their methods do not appear to have changed with regimes all that much. It’s just now ok to use BDSM torture witches.

    That’s pretty much pinnacle protagonist centered morality to me.
    I don’t think they ever consider the torture these women do as good on either side.

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2013

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    I dont recall the charging through hippies (maybe it was after I stopped reading this) but fair enough this would count.



    I don’t think they ever consider the torture these women do as good on either side.
    They did when torturing an enemy soldier for stabbing a friend. The information then got from him was entirely on the side. They were just wanting to make him suffer and that was seen as just.

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

    Join Date
    Sep 2010

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Sword of Truth sounds really horrible. I am kinda glad I haven't read it, now. (Wasn't that fantasy, though? I am not quite sure how communists fit into pseudomedieval fantasy.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Or no, if you think your family opposes the match. But Hollywood doesn't like unhappy endings.

    Public proposals and answers used to be about making sure as many people as possible knew about your status. The parallels with using social media for the same are obvious, yes?
    When and where? In the US? I heard US-Americans are perhaps the least polite culture in the world (as perceived by other cultures) but still ...

    Public proposals are so unbelievably rude (if not planned by an actually already engaged couple as publicity stunt) that I don't think they ever were much of a thing in real life. Europeans aren't as concerned about "saving face" as Asians, but most still wouldn't like to be rejected in front of everyone they know - or reject someone in public.

    The problem with women who have seen too many romantic comedies from Hollywood wanting a "romantic restaurant proposal" is, to my knowledge, solved by talking about marriage beforehand. If both parties agree that marriage would be desirable at some point in the future, the rings are bought, the candlelight dinner at a restaurant is booked and the man kneels and presents the engagement ring.
    But the real decision is already made at that point.


    Romantic comedies are another such case where I am not quite sure if it is protagonist centered morality, or patriarchy/male centered morality, as some people actually enable stalkers in real life because they think it's romantic. There's no protagonists in real life, but there's taking the male point of view and projecting it onto women. "He's in love with her, so she'll totally be happy when he suddenly turns up in her bedroom, not like she's a real human with thoughts and feelings of her own that might actually differ from his".

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    The Chinese concept of 'face' is really difficult to translate into Western concepts. A combination of honor and respectability is probably the best description.

    I remember in the film Wong Fei Hung, where Fei Hung is about to get into a fight with a group of local troublemakers and the newly installed magistrate forestalls the fight by saying 'It's my first day, give me some face'.

    In most Western situations, clamping down hard on both sides of the altercation would be a sign of strength as a 'zero tolerance' style "I don't put up with bull manure" stance.
    In this case, the new magistrate would lose 'face' by clamping down as neither side respects him enough to not start trouble and by getting involved, he has to enforce his authority. This has the contradictory effect of showing that he's incompetent, since he's unable to keep the peace by reputation alone, which he won't have as he's brand new in the position.

    As I said, it's complicated.
    Thanks for the clarification. I really should've stated it a bit differently. "Honor" is the closest English term I could think of, but isn't quite the same, as you mentioned. The way I mentioned it gave the impression they were much closer to each other than they are. I guess I'm still having trouble understanding 'face', since I tend to mix the two together too much.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    May 2009

    Default Re: Protagonist centered Morality/Reasonability

    Quote Originally Posted by Themrys View Post
    There's no protagonists in real life...
    Feel I should correct you here:
    I am the protagonist ... you are all NPCs.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •