The problem with Thor and Durkon's plan.

[Ninja Dragon]

So I've been thinking about Thor/Durkon's plan make a truce with Redcloak so they can repair the rifts and keep the Snarl from destroying the world. It's a hard plan, because it requires Redcloak to abandon his Sunk Cost Fallacy, but theory Durkon could offer peace and teritory to the goblinkind and get Redcloak to cooperate in exchange for it, assuming they have turned Xykon into an immobile pile of bones by then.

But I have a problem with this plan: what is stopping Redcloak from having his cake and eating it?

Let's say Durkon just told Redcloak about the plan (RC accepted to listen to him because he's smart enough not to refuse tactical intel). Redcloak can then just shrug, do the ritual to teleport the Snarl, enslave the gods, and then get them to repair the rifts along with him. Now the threat of the Snarl is contained and the Dark One rules everything forever. And the gods can't even destroy the world if they see RC is about to do that, because they have an agreement not to do it unless the Godsmoot decides for it (and the Godsmoot is currently on indefinite hold).

The only way I could see RC accepting Durkon's proposal is if he's already defeated, about to die, and The OOTS offers it as an alternative to dieing and never seeing The Plan come into fruition. But that's way less exciting than the epic diplomacy feat I wanna see Dukon pull off.

Any ideas?

[The MunchKING]

because if they reinforce the Gate, the Snarl can't get out of it, so he loses his gun to the head of the other Gods. At which point he's traded all the good will the other Gods would have for fixing the Snarl problem, to instead get the Gods even more ticked than they were before.

[Peelee]

Redcloak needs Xykon to enact The Plan. Once the ritual is completed, Xykon will realize he's been tricked, and will almost certainly kill Redcloak. This would leave TDO without a suitable cleric to enact Thor's/Durkon's plan, meaning when the world dies, TDO dies with it.

So Reddie really can't eat his cake and have it too. Hell need to make a choice.

[Ninja Dragon]

because if they reinforce the Gate, the Snarl can't get out of it, so he loses his gun to the head of the other Gods. At which point he's traded all the good will the other Gods would have for fixing the Snarl problem, to instead get the Gods even more ticked than they were before.

Hadn't really thought of that. I don't think it was stated in-comic but it makes sense. RC needs the rifts to use the gate teleportation thing, I suppose.

[Peelee]

Hadn't really thought of that. I don't think it was stated in-comic but it makes sense. RC needs the rifts to use the gate teleportation thing, I suppose.

Actually, assuming that the ritual did get pulled off and Redcloak lived to help, it wouldn't quite work out like that; Thor said they could spot weld as new rifts form, if a TDO cleric helps. So if TDO did help with the existing ones, then the gods would likely destroy the world which kills TDO, or TDO would not help with the existing ones and all of existence would likely end because TDO would then be the remaining god and he can't create anything with any real substance without other divine essences, and he'd eventually die regardless.

Basically there's no way for TDO to really fulfill his plan without dying. He just doesn't know this, and whether he and/or Redcloak believe the claim will be the question.

[factotum]

You're making the implicit assumption that anyone will tell Redcloak the plan and he has to agree with it. Given we've already been told that all the gods need is the power from one ninth level spell, all that needs to happen is for Redcloak to cast Implosion on one of the good guys and job's done.

[Sir_Norbert]

One ninth-level spell doesn't mean any ninth-level spell. It can, but it's a real stretch to suppose that meaning applies in this case.

[The MunchKING]

At the very least I would say it has to be cast at the gate.

But yeah I interpreted it as less "he has to cast a 9th level spell", and more "we need the POWER of a 9th level spell, cast in an elaborate gate-recreating ritual".

[Peelee]

You're making the implicit assumption that anyone will tell Redcloak the plan and he has to agree with it. Given we've already been told that all the gods need is the power from one ninth level spell, all that needs to happen is for Redcloak to cast Implosion on one of the good guys and job's done.

A man in the desert just needs water, but if you have a gallon jug and dump it out in his general direction, you haven't solved any problems.

How that spell slot is used is probably important, I'd wager.

[hroþila]

I wouldn't assume that the gods can't destroy the world as long as the godsmoot is on hold. If it looks like the last gate is about to be destroyed, I fully expect them to blow up the world. If that's what they consider the proper procedure, then either they have a pre-existing explicit agreement to do it on the spot (an agreement that could have been reached at previous godsmoots or during previous worlds), or it is understood that their own immediate safety takes precedence over the rules of the godsmoot. That's how I see it, anyway.

[Morty]

I personally doubt that Durkon will be able to enact Thor's plan in a way similar to how Thor envisioned it. Maybe not for the reasons described here, but it's fairly optimistic in general and assumes that Redcloak is far more reasonable than he actually is.

[Riftwolf]

I wouldn't assume that the gods can't destroy the world as long as the godsmoot is on hold. If it looks like the last gate is about to be destroyed, I fully expect them to blow up the world. If that's what they consider the proper procedure, then either they have a pre-existing explicit agreement to do it on the spot (an agreement that could have been reached at previous godsmoots or during previous worlds), or it is understood that their own immediate safety takes precedence over the rules of the godsmoot. That's how I see it, anyway.

This. Basically the Godsmoot is being held because there's still a question of the Snarl/rifts being contained. Once that's out the window, the Gods can pull the plug with ten minutes warning (according to Loki), so they probably bypass formal structures.

[The Giant]

So I've been thinking about Thor/Durkon's plan make a truce with Redcloak so they can repair the rifts and keep the Snarl from destroying the world. It's a hard plan, because it requires Redcloak to abandon his Sunk Cost Fallacy, but theory Durkon could offer peace and teritory to the goblinkind and get Redcloak to cooperate in exchange for it, assuming they have turned Xykon into an immobile pile of bones by then.

But I have a problem with this plan: what is stopping Redcloak from having his cake and eating it?

Let's say Durkon just told Redcloak about the plan (RC accepted to listen to him because he's smart enough not to refuse tactical intel). Redcloak can then just shrug, do the ritual to teleport the Snarl, enslave the gods, and then get them to repair the rifts along with him. Now the threat of the Snarl is contained and the Dark One rules everything forever. And the gods can't even destroy the world if they see RC is about to do that, because they have an agreement not to do it unless the Godsmoot decides for it (and the Godsmoot is currently on indefinite hold).

The only way I could see RC accepting Durkon's proposal is if he's already defeated, about to die, and The OOTS offers it as an alternative to dieing and never seeing The Plan come into fruition. But that's way less exciting than the epic diplomacy feat I wanna see Dukon pull off.

Any ideas?

There is some misunderstanding of the mechanics involved here.

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.

You're making the implicit assumption that anyone will tell Redcloak the plan and he has to agree with it. Given we've already been told that all the gods need is the power from one ninth level spell, all that needs to happen is for Redcloak to cast Implosion on one of the good guys and job's done.

No, not at all. It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

[WolvesbaneIII]

There is some misunderstanding of the mechanics involved here.

1.) If the Dark One succeeds at the ritual, he gains the ability to move the Gate. If he does this and moves the Gate to, say, Valhalla, then the Snarl pops out of the Gate and kills the gods on Valhalla. Then it destroys all of Valhalla until it's a big empty void-plane. And then...nothing. That's it. The Dark One does not have a way to put the Snarl back into the prison after he's unleashed it. The Snarl just lives on Valhalla now, or what's left of it.

2.) The Gate connects the prison to another plane. When the Dark One moves it, it now connects the prison to a different plane. So after the Snarl is unleashed on Plane 1, then the Dark One moves the Gate to Plane 2, it now connects the prison to Plane 2—it does not connect Planes 1 and 2.

3.) But that doesn't really matter because once the Snarl is free on any plane other than its prison, then literally any planar gateway could potentially allow it to change planes. The Dark One would cease to have any control over its location, and in fact it would be far more likely that some of the evil gods would start spamming big flashy portals to the Dark One's domain until the Snarl took the bait and went through.

4.) Alternately, once any Northern god dies, the deadlock at the Godsmoot is broken and the vote resolves (votes from dead gods don't count). Even if the world was "saved" they would be free to immediately take a second vote to destroy the world—or even just to kill all goblins—depriving the Dark One of his followers and ultimately killing him over the long term.

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

That's why the Dark One's actual plan is to use the threat of moving the Gate to extract concessions from the other gods and deter preemptive strikes against his followers. Those concessions will be significantly less than, "All of you be my slaves forever," because at that point, the calculus would change and some of the gods might risk the bomb getting dropped on one of them to end the Dark One's threat to their friends and family.



No, not at all. It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

Very informative without giving away any spoilers. well done.

[LadyEowyn]

Thank you for clarifying all of that, and especially the last bit. I thought was obvious, but it’s been being debated for ages.

The benefit of Thor and Durkon’s plan is that it means Redcloak and the Dark One can bargain using “if you meet our demands, we will help you contain the Snarl” rather than “unless you meet our demands, we will release the Snarl”.

Redcloak and the Dark One already want to negotiate, after a fashion; this just lets them shift the negotiations from being on the basis of Mutually Assured Destruction to being on the basis of mutual benefit.

It’s the difference between having a nuke and having (to substantially understate the case) the cure for cancer.

The main gap in this new plan is that the Order aren’t aware of some crucial information - that the gods created the goblins as cannon fodder - and that Thor hadn’t offered any concessions (and does not appear to have any authority to negotiate on behalf of the other gods). So there’s still a lot of potential twists and turns.

I am very, very, very excited for the next book.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That’s a lot of very helpful information. I didn’t really click with me that the Dark One wouldn’t have any particular control over the Snarl, just over the location of the Gate, until now. I am also very excited for the next book!

[factotum]

No, not at all. It's contributing a 9th-level spell slot willingly to a specific ritual that Thor will explain to Durkon later, not just casting any 9th-level spell at any target. Thor would have just said, "Trick him into casting a spell on you," if that was good enough.

Oh, OK, cool! That makes things a lot clearer, thanks.

The main gap in this new plan is that the Order aren’t aware of some crucial information - that the gods created the goblins as cannon fodder

We still don't know for 100% sure that's actually true, though. The Dark One told Redcloak that via the Crimson Mantle, but he's an evil god and is under no obligation to tell the truth to his followers.

[Rektascensja]

Well, isn't the biggest problem with Thor's plan the fact that they talked about it on panel? Elan would tell you that discussed plans never work as intended. :)

[Yirggzmb]

Well, isn't the biggest problem with Thor's plan the fact that they talked about it on panel? Elan would tell you that discussed plans never work as intended. :)

This is what I've been thinking lol Fortunately, the plan described was still pretty vague ("Well need to seal things with purple energy. Get Redcloak to help. We'll handle the rest when you let me know he's on board") so I don't think it's doomed to failure or anything. But it's definitely not going to be as simple as Thor tried to make it sound. Something is gonna come up. Probably several somethings.

My hunch is that it's gonna be something with the planet in the rift. We've been reminded of it relatively recently (can't remember the specific number), so there's no way that's gonna go unused. And then also, of course, all the problems involved with getting Redcloak to sit down and listen.

[Peelee]

We still don't know for 100% sure that's actually true, though. The Dark One told Redcloak that via the Crimson Mantle, but he's an evil god and is under no obligation to tell the truth to his followers.

I would see it more as "he doesn't actually know the full truth" than "he's lying," since lying to his own people about his cause doesn't really strike me as something TDO would do, from what little we've been told in comic (and I'll readily admit it's from a biased source). That being said, it makes sense; why else did the goblins have no deity to worship?

[factotum]

That being said, it makes sense; why else did the goblins have no deity to worship?

The Elves don't seem to have had their own deities either, with all of theirs being created by worship after the world's creation, yet I don't think anyone ever said they were created as XP fodder?

[Peelee]

The Elves don't seem to have had their own deities either, with all of theirs being created by worship after the world's creation, yet I don't think anyone ever said they were created as XP fodder?

We don't know if they did or not; the dwarves also got a demigod raised among themselves like the elves did, despite having the Northern Pantheon to worship.

This is a pretty weak rebuttal, I'll admit.

[LadyEowyn]

We do know that goblins and hobgoblins are very short-lived, tend to be weaker than the PC species, and generally aren’t any good at arcane spellcasting. All of those things fit with the idea that they were created for the purpose of being XP fodder. Contrast this with other non-humanoids like the lizardfolk who seems to be basicallly on a par with humans in terms of skills and strength.

The anti-aging effect of the Mantle is the only reason Redcloak’s had the chance to become as powerful as he is.

[factotum]

We do know that goblins and hobgoblins are very short-lived, tend to be weaker than the PC species, and generally aren’t any good at arcane spellcasting. All of those things fit with the idea that they were created for the purpose of being XP fodder.

But this is assuming that there are no other monsters which fit that role, and the fact is, there are. Dire Rats, for instance, which are the same CR as goblins. There was no need for the gods to create goblins to get their clerics beyond level 1, so I question if they actually did so or if that's just what the Dark One says in order to get his high priests on-side for a plan that, when all's said and done, could lead to the destruction of the entire goblin race.

[Fyraltari]

But this is assuming that there are no other monsters which fit that role

That's not what Redcloaks says, though:

Spoiler: SoD, p.37

Show

So the gods met again and made a crucial decision: to fashion races of humanoid monsters to further populate the world. They created goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, orcs, kobolds, lizardfolk and dozens of others. And that's not even counting the ones that were added later in other monster books.

[Rrmcklin]

The Elves don't seem to have had their own deities either, with all of theirs being created by worship after the world's creation, yet I don't think anyone ever said they were created as XP fodder?

Not true; the Elves don't only worship the Elven Gods, Mr. Burlew has said they also worship some Western Gods. He has also clarified that the Goblins worshipped literally no one before the Dark One ascended.

[factotum]

That's not what Redcloaks says, though

And as I've already pointed out at least twice, what Redcloak says about these things cannot be trusted because his information comes ultimately from the Dark One--who, even if he isn't lying, *was not present* when those supposed events took place, due to a terminal case of not having been born yet.

[Fyraltari]

I get that and I agree with it, but you’re contesting a claim, ‘the goblins in particular were screwed by the gods’, that not even Redcloak is making.

[arverst_aegnar]

Has anyone other than Redcloak ever mentioned the "goblins created as XP fodder" thing? I've never done a thorough search.

I suspect we're going to find out a lot more about that element in the next book -- well, 'suspect' in the same way i 'suspect' we'll be seeing Team Evil in the next book, and that i 'suspect' Belkar will breathe his last breath ever before the end.

It's not necessary that TDO was lying, or even completely incorrect. There are a lot of gods, after all, with very varied alignments, and we saw in the scribble comics* that the gods agreed not to contest the additions of others, even if they didn't like it or thought it didn't match the theme. But i find it very interesting that Thor didn't bring this up when he was sharing his plan with Durkon. If i was part of, or aware of, a divine plot to create a race of sapient creatures solely for the purpose of giving clerics XP, i would definitely share that information with the guy i need to bargain with said creatures, partially on behalf of said gods.

I'll be surprised if TDO's version was totally without basis. I'll also be surprised if there was a universal agreement among the gods to screw over the goblins/hobgoblins/orcs/kobolds/et al.

*I'm aware the crayon drawings are not 100% accurate, but that particular detail dovetails with the origin and nature of the Snarl, and with what we've seen of the gods' interactions since then.

[Fyraltari]

Has anyone other than Redcloak ever mentioned the "goblins created as XP fodder" thing? I've never done a thorough search.

Right-Eye, but his information comes from Redcloak, presumably.