The problem with Thor and Durkon's plan.

[thereaper]

The bigger problem with their plan is that it does not address the world in the rift.

[Peelee]

Thor's plan doesn't involve something he doesn't know about.

That.... Makes sense, though?

[Morty]

I sincerely doubt that Redcloak's story in SoD will turn out to be a big fat lie. Part of it is based on the Giant's own views on the subject, but also because all the crayon stories thus far were accurate, just incomplete. So I expect the story of how the goblinoids were created as XP fodder to be broadly accurate but miss some crucial information or context.

[factotum]

I sincerely doubt that Redcloak's story in SoD will turn out to be a big fat lie. Part of it is based on the Giant's own views on the subject, but also because all the crayon stories thus far were accurate, just incomplete.

Do we know the crayon stories were "accurate, just incomplete"? I mean, we're reasonably sure the Snarl exists and is trapped inside the world (since we saw it reaching out in the desert after the destruction of Girard's pyramid), but we also know it's sharing its prison with a planet of some kind, and it's difficult to resolve how those two things fit together. At the very least, the part of the crayons which says the Snarl is a mindless creature of pure chaos has to be wrong, surely?

[Morty]

Do we know the crayon stories were "accurate, just incomplete"? I mean, we're reasonably sure the Snarl exists and is trapped inside the world (since we saw it reaching out in the desert after the destruction of Girard's pyramid), but we also know it's sharing its prison with a planet of some kind, and it's difficult to resolve how those two things fit together. At the very least, the part of the crayons which says the Snarl is a mindless creature of pure chaos has to be wrong, surely?

Shojo's story told us that the gods had created the Snarl with their bickering. That is true. It's also true that it killed the Gods of the East. The gods imprisoning it within another world is also true. Eventually, cracks started to appear in the Snarl's prison. Also true. What Shojo didn't know and couldn't say was that there had been countless words between the first and current one.

Everything we saw that differs from Shojo's recount is an omission, not a falsehood. Either through Shojo's lack of knowledge or the gods'. As far as the Snarl being a mindless creature of pure chaos... how do we know it is or isn't, exactly? We've never seen it do anything other than lash out outside of a crayon section. It seems to have done everything others have claimed it has, but its motives are a mystery.

[Fyraltari]

Thor's plan doesn't involve something he doesn't know about.

That.... Makes sense, though?

That’s still a flaw in his plan, though even if it is of no fault of his own.

[factotum]

As far as the Snarl being a mindless creature of pure chaos... how do we know it is or isn't, exactly?

Because it's sharing its prison with a planet, something it would surely have destroyed if it were a creature of pure chaos.

[Fyraltari]

Because it's sharing its prison with a planet, something it would surely have destroyed if it were a creature of pure chaos.

Unless it is physically unable to. We know it didn't destroy it, we don't know that's by choice.

[Morty]

Because it's sharing its prison with a planet, something it would surely have destroyed if it were a creature of pure chaos.

There's several unfounded assumptions right here, starting with the fact that we don't know if can, as Fyraltari said, or if it's even aware of the planet. The existence of the planet in the rift doesn't render anything in Shojo's crayon section untrue. It simply adds new information, one that Shojo presumably didn't have. Though it does raise a question if the

[Peelee]

There's several unfounded assumptions right here, starting with the fact that we don't know if can, as Fyraltari said, or if it's even aware of the planet. The existence of the planet in the rift doesn't render anything in Shojo's crayon section untrue. It simply adds new information, one that Shojo presumably didn't have. Though it does raise a question if the

"Whoever's directing this is a master of suspense!" - Bender Bending Rodriguez

[Morty]

As I was going to type but apparently forgot to, it does raise the question if the Order of the Scribble knew about it.

[Fyraltari]

As I was going to type but apparently forgot to, it does raise the question if the Order of the Scribble knew about it.

I see no reason why Soon would trust Shojo's father with only part of the super secret lore, so my bet is no.

I do not count Kraagor being alive and having learned about it when falling into the rift as "the Ordred of the Scribble knowing about it", mind.

[Cavenskull]

But this is assuming that there are no other monsters which fit that role, and the fact is, there are. Dire Rats, for instance, which are the same CR as goblins. There was no need for the gods to create goblins to get their clerics beyond level 1, so I question if they actually did so or if that's just what the Dark One says in order to get his high priests on-side for a plan that, when all's said and done, could lead to the destruction of the entire goblin race.

D&D is full of XP-fodder creatures, so why would a world based on D&D only have one creature type devoted to that purpose? The gods could have created goblins and dire rats for the same reason any game has multiple enemy types: variety.

[Morty]

I see no reason why Soon would trust Shojo's father with only part of the super secret lore, so my bet is no.

I do not count Kraagor being alive and having learned about it when falling into the rift as "the Ordred of the Scribble knowing about it", mind.

Soon doesn't strike me as concealing such information from his descendants on purpose, so yeah, it's unlikely. Though I suspect there's something we don't know about Kraagor's death.

[factotum]

There's several unfounded assumptions right here, starting with the fact that we don't know if can, as Fyraltari said

OK, so you haven't actually read the Scribbles, then? Strip #274, panel 3: "Twenty-seven minutes after it revealed its existence, the Snarl had undone creation", with a picture of a very destroyed planet. So, if the Scribbles are all true but just missing information as you say, we know the Snarl can destroy a planet. I find it hard to believe that it is also somehow unaware of a planet it's sharing its prison with--it was perfectly able to see the original planet (that it destroyed, see strip I mentioned above), and it's also able to see holes in its prison and reach out through them.

[Morty]

OK, so you haven't actually read the Scribbles, then? Strip #274, panel 3:

...kindly refrain from claiming I don't know what I'm talking about.

"Twenty-seven minutes after it revealed its existence, the Snarl had undone creation", with a picture of a very destroyed planet. So, if the Scribbles are all true but just missing information as you say, we know the Snarl can destroy a planet. I find it hard to believe that it is also somehow unaware of a planet it's sharing its prison with--it was perfectly able to see the original planet (that it destroyed, see strip I mentioned above), and it's also able to see holes in its prison and reach out through them.

Again, we know it did destroy the first world and countless worlds after that one, as Thor told us. Why hasn't it destroyed the one in the rift? We don't know, just like we don't know how or why it's there to begin with. Thor and Odin don't know either. You might find it "hard to believe", but that's just personal incredulity, not proof. What we know is that the Snarl has been destroying world after world for millions of years, but that there's a planet visible in the rift that the gods don't know about. The rest is speculation, but nothing said in the scribbles is actually contradicted.

[hroþila]

My personal interpretation is that Shojo's account necessarily conflated different events because the Sapphire Guard lacked a key piece of information: the existence of more worlds between the original one and the current one. So they knew that the Snarl destroyed worlds, but they thought only one such world had existed, so the obvious assumption was that the Snarl destroyed the original world. That's what the crayons showed. In reality, the Snarl would have destroyed every world except for the very first one, the four-quiddity one.

[Fyraltari]

Why would the gods believe the Snarl had destroyed it in that case?

[hroþila]

Why would the gods believe the Snarl had destroyed it in that case?

Good question. Perhaps they just assumed, because they had seen the Snarl destroy every subsequent world when they checked. But it is quite possible that the Snarl destroyed (the) world(s) and then rebuilt it/them without anyone knowing.

In either case, what the crayons showed would still be accurate in itself.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Well, isn't the biggest problem with Thor's plan the fact that they talked about it on panel? Elan would tell you that discussed plans never work as intended. :)

They didn't tells us what Thor is willing to offer. I see three was this can go down:

1) Obvious stuff the giant thought would be boring to include
2) There will be a dramatic moment where Durkon says something like "we offer you a new continent"
3) They actually didn't discuss it. Redcloak: "What does Thor offer?" Durkon: "Ya, know: I forgot to ask. Sorry, this diplomacy thing be terribly cross class for me."

[Dion]

They didn't tells us what Thor is willing to offer. I see three was this can go down:

4) You don’t have to cooperate. We offer nothing if you do. On an unrelated note, unless these gates are sealed in the next 5 minutes, we’re going to destroy the world and you’re going to die.

[Fyraltari]

Good question. Perhaps they just assumed, because they had seen the Snarl destroy every subsequent world when they checked.

That doesn't make sense, they wouldn't have built more worlds if they had not thought the first one was gone. Also I'm not sure how likely they are not to notice an entire freaking planet when building thier prison.

But it is quite possible that the Snarl destroyed (the) world(s) and then rebuilt it/them without anyone knowing.

Very possible.

4) You don’t have to cooperate. We offer nothing if you do. On an unrelated note, unless these gates are sealed in the next 5 minutes, we’re going to destroy the world and you’re going to die.

Redcloak's totally game for that, though. And so is the Dark One.

[Chronos]

Why does everyone treat Thor's plan and the Dark One's plan as separate? Thor's plan isn't an alternative to TDO's; it's its culmination. TDO wants to gain control of the Gates so he'll have enough power to negotiate a better deal for goblins. Thor's plan starts from the premise that TDO already has enough power to ensure a strong negotiating position.

As for the Snarl, I think the simplest explanation (though not necessarily correct, because there are plenty of other explanations) is that it was a mindless thing of pure destruction as of when the gods last had a good look at it (something they're hesitant to do again), but that in the countless æons since then, it's changed, and is now capable of creation, or at least of refraining from destruction.

[Jasdoif]

Why does everyone treat Thor's plan and the Dark One's plan as separate?

Mostly, because they're separate. The Dark One preventing an imminent release of the Snarl directly on the gods is going to garner better concessions than the Dark One preventing an escape of the Snarl that the gods have seen legions of times; and actually sealing the rifts means there is no longer an imminent release of the Snarl for the Dark One to prevent.

[Throknor]

Mostly, because they're separate. The Dark One preventing an imminent release of the Snarl directly on the gods is going to garner better concessions than the Dark One preventing an escape of the Snarl that the gods have seen legions of times; and actually sealing the rifts means there is no longer an imminent release of the Snarl for the Dark One to prevent.

Does the Dark One know the multitude of worlds that have gone before and that the gods are literally five seconds away from having a vote in favor of destroying the current one? The strength of his bargaining position is greatly reduced merely by the fact that the gods have time during "the few weeks it will take to complete the rituals" to destroy the world from under him. Once he learns and believes that then bargaining to help seal the rifts will become his best option. Not just for his goblins but for his actual existence.

[Jasdoif]

Does the Dark One know the multitude of worlds that have gone before and that the gods are literally five seconds away from having a vote in favor of destroying the current one? The strength of his bargaining position is greatly reduced merely by the fact that the gods have time during "the few weeks it will take to complete the rituals" to destroy the world from under him. Once he learns and believes that then bargaining to help seal the rifts will become his best option. Not just for his goblins but for his actual existence.

Since we're talking about it from the perspective of the Dark One now....It might. Or it might not.

No, seriously. If the Dark One knows/learns that he's unlikely to survive the inter-Snarl-um transition between worlds; he may come to the realization that the gods will still have the option to destroy the world, and him with it, after he relinquishes his ability to kill them with the Snarl. What will he do if the gods renege?

If he doesn't know/learn that, he might think he'll be better off with a hand in creating the next world than he would with whatever he could get in this one. (Come to think of it, Redcloak could possibly make that decision himself, and try to destroy the last Gate)


And, honestly, with the Dark One's zero "on-panel" appearances and the tenor of his limited interactions; I'm not entirely convinced he should be assumed to be a "rational" actor in all of this.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

He was killed when trying to get concessions from established leaders, after all; he may not be the trusting/forgiving sort now.

And if the short-term goal of the Plan is "be able to threaten the gods", it looks a lot less convoluted...whether the long-term goal is "get concessions from the gods that I can trust them to keep" or "I'll die and take some of them with me".

[CriticalFailure]

(Come to think of it, Redcloak could possibly make that decision himself, and try to destroy the last Gate)

imo it's pretty likely that something will happen to expose Redcloak's dishonesty to Xykon and Redcloak will try to destroy the gate as a last ditch effort to fulfill the plan.

[factotum]

No, seriously. If the Dark One knows/learns that he's unlikely to survive the inter-Snarl-um transition between worlds; he may come to the realization that the gods will still have the option to destroy the world, and him with it, after he relinquishes his ability to kill them with the Snarl. What will he do if the gods renege?

Where is he going to learn that from that he'd consider a trustworthy source, though? He appears entirely distrusting of the other Gods, even the Evil ones (hence Loki not being able to speak to him anymore).

[Mike Havran]

Where is he going to learn that from that he'd consider a trustworthy source, though? He appears entirely distrusting of the other Gods, even the Evil ones (hence Loki not being able to speak to him anymore).

He might have found the cemetery of Worlds on Astral Plane; the barrier is supposed to ward off creatures, not gods. Unlikely, but possible.

[Riftwolf]

He might have found the cemetery of Worlds on Astral Plane; the barrier is supposed to ward off creatures, not gods. Unlikely, but possible.

Why would he even be looking for it? Also, Thor doesn't specify the barrier keeps only mortals out, he says 'anyone'.
But yes, it's possible to find an invisible pocket dimension in an infinite plane that no-one's told you about. I think its one of the Epic Search checks.