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Thread: Cantrip: Fist

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Cantrip: Fist

    Tenser's Fists

    Transmutation cantrip
    Casting time: 1 bonus action
    Components: V, S
    Duration: 1 minute

    After you cast this spell magic surrownds your arms an you can use then as an effective weapon.
    To cast this spell you need all your hands to be unoccupied. While this spell is active you can't use your hands, this includes holding objects or providing somatic components.
    For the duration of the spell as an Action you can make a special weapon attack that deals 1d12+ your Str modifier.
    You can end this spell earlier by using an Action.

    This attack damage increases when reach higher levels. At 5th level the attack damage increases by a d12, and again 11th level and 17th level.

    Classes: Wizard



    Is this thing balanced?
    Last edited by Trandir; 2019-11-15 at 12:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    So using Fire Bolt as our benchmark: 1d10 per tier, Fire Damage, Ranged, no +mod to damage

    Drawbacks:
    Bludgeoning Damage: more resisted than Fire, BUT that usually has the caveat of non-magical damage, so probably on the same level.
    Melee as opposed to ranged.

    Enhancements:
    1d12 per tier is a little stronger than 1d10 per tier
    +mod to damage (assuming it is behaving like unarmed strike in all other areas not specified), which Fire Bolt lacks.

    ... not sure it the trade offs are balanced. Maybe work off the damage of Green Flame Blade as a starting point?

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    So...

    You can do this and have a shield at the same time. So, it has an advantage over BB and GFB due to never needing war caster to cast spells. Since itís a melee attack, you would still add your strength bonus to it.

    Itís less flexible than the other two melee cantrips for weapons, but more flexible for other casting.

    Overall, I would say the d12 is too much. I would think that a d8 would be more appropriate since you can use it with a shield. That makes it the same base damage as a longsword.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    So using Fire Bolt as our benchmark: 1d10 per tier, Fire Damage, Ranged, no +mod to damage

    Drawbacks:
    Bludgeoning Damage: more resisted than Fire, BUT that usually has the caveat of non-magical damage, so probably on the same level.
    Melee as opposed to ranged.

    Enhancements:
    1d12 per tier is a little stronger than 1d10 per tier
    +mod to damage (assuming it is behaving like unarmed strike in all other areas not specified), which Fire Bolt lacks.

    ... not sure it the trade offs are balanced. Maybe work off the damage of Green Flame Blade as a starting point?
    As I read it, the damage from this cantrip is still nonmagical. Using Green Flame Blade as a comparison is also not ideal because that adds additional effects to a full strike, while this replaces the strike with another die. Shocking grasp might be the best point of comparison.
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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    So...

    You can do this and have a shield at the same time. So, it has an advantage over BB and GFB due to never needing war caster to cast spells. Since itís a melee attack, you would still add your strength bonus to it.

    Itís less flexible than the other two melee cantrips for weapons, but more flexible for other casting.

    Overall, I would say the d12 is too much. I would think that a d8 would be more appropriate since you can use it with a shield. That makes it the same base damage as a longsword.
    Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade don't need Warcaster to be used with a shield, as the weapon is the material component.

    More importantly, this isn't balanced because only the Wizard gets it :p

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade don't need Warcaster to be used with a shield, as the weapon is the material component.

    More importantly, this isn't balanced because only the Wizard gets it :p
    I wasnít saying that you needed warcaster for BB/GFB, but that if you sword and boards it you need warcaster for other spells. With this spell you donít need to worry about that at all.

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    It doesnít add ability bonus, itís melee rather than ranged v Fire bolt (which you can also do with a shield). Canít be combined with a magic weapon like BB or GFB.

    Itís virtually uncomboable and so it isnít going to supplant anything.

    Itís fine.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    So using Fire Bolt as our benchmark: 1d10 per tier, Fire Damage, Ranged, no +mod to damage

    Drawbacks:
    Bludgeoning Damage: more resisted than Fire, BUT that usually has the caveat of non-magical damage, so probably on the same level.
    Melee as opposed to ranged.

    Enhancements:
    1d12 per tier is a little stronger than 1d10 per tier
    +mod to damage (assuming it is behaving like unarmed strike in all other areas not specified), which Fire Bolt lacks.

    ... not sure it the trade offs are balanced. Maybe work off the damage of Green Flame Blade as a starting point?
    Well a d12 has an average of 6.5 damage while a warhammer is 4.5 plus BB or GFB bonus. Also this does scale with Str so you should miss a couple of hits compared to flame bolt. Also you have to be in melee range do cast this efficiently.

    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    So...

    You can do this and have a shield at the same time. So, it has an advantage over BB and GFB due to never needing war caster to cast spells. Since itís a melee attack, you would still add your strength bonus to it.

    Itís less flexible than the other two melee cantrips for weapons, but more flexible for other casting.

    Overall, I would say the d12 is too much. I would think that a d8 would be more appropriate since you can use it with a shield. That makes it the same base damage as a longsword.
    Emmmmm not exactly. You can have a shield but the S components require a free hand as almost any cantrip (shield and eldrich blast) I don't see what's the point of that.

    What other casting?
    Again compare this to let's say toll the dead, you have a worst damage type, far worst range, same components so you can cast it with a shield. I feel like the range is enought to buy off a permanent d12 damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    As I read it, the damage from this cantrip is still nonmagical. Using Green Flame Blade as a comparison is also not ideal because that adds additional effects to a full strike, while this replaces the strike with another die. Shocking grasp might be the best point of comparison.
    True. So instead of 4.5 average damage and other stuff, no reaction and advantage agains armored foes, you get 6.5 +Str damage and the attack roll scales off Str as well, non magical damage.
    I do not know if it's balanced compared to shocking grasp, so we might be in the power creep side of homebrews.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade don't need Warcaster to be used with a shield, as the weapon is the material component.

    More importantly, this isn't balanced because only the Wizard gets it :p
    Exactly.

    What do you mean? I probably should rename this Tenser's something if the mage only nature is a problem.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit View Post
    It doesnít add ability bonus.
    I read that it does.... we will need an OP decision on this

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit View Post
    It doesnít add ability bonus, itís melee rather than ranged v Fire bolt (which you can also do with a shield). Canít be combined with a magic weapon like BB or GFB.

    Itís virtually uncomboable and so it isnít going to supplant anything.

    Itís fine.
    Well you are making a Str based attack so it does add the ability bonus to damage.
    Honestly at least now the wizard can't dump Str if she wants to use this.



    Quote Originally Posted by nickl_2000 View Post
    I read that it does.... we will need an OP decision on this
    Well I thought that with the "As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack" part that is the same as BB and GFB it was obvious that it adds the Str mod to both attack and damage roll.
    Last edited by Trandir; 2019-11-10 at 07:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    Well you are making a Str based attack so it does add the ability bonus to damage.
    Honestly at least now the wizard can't dump Str if she wants to use this.

    ...

    Well I thought that with the "As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a melee attack" part that is the same as BB and GFB it was obvious that it adds the Str mod to both attack and damage roll.
    Yes, as written it simply use another die instead of the d4 of an unarmed strike, so it adds Str. An Eldritch Knight can use it?
    Last edited by Old Harry MTX; 2019-11-11 at 01:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Harry MTX View Post
    Yes, as written it simply use another die instead of the d4 of an unarmed strike, so it adds Str. An Eldritch Knight can use it?
    Yes they can.

    Also an unarmed strike usually does 1 damage not 1d4
    Last edited by Trandir; 2019-11-11 at 02:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    To be honest I see this as more of a Druid or cleric ability, those two classes have more durability in melee than wizards. Iíve very rarely see anyone playing the wizard class become happy about having enemies within melee range. I donít see if the damage scales with higher spell slots so you could add a knock back effect for higher levels that would give it some utility and justify your glass cannon getting in melee range
    Last edited by Ogrillian; 2019-11-11 at 03:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogrillian View Post
    To be honest I see this as more of a Druid or cleric ability, those two classes have more durability in melee than wizards. Iíve very rarely see anyone playing the wizard class become happy about having enemies within melee range. I donít see if the damage scales with higher spell slots so you could add a knock back effect for higher levels that would give it some utility and justify your glass cannon getting in melee range
    Well not all cantrips are created equal, the intent was to give the wizard a good melee option but their nature would make it not the go to cantrip to deal damage. Clerics already have toll the dead and duids have shillelag, both in my opinion better cantrips for damage than this thing.

    Also this is a cantrip so it scales with lavel not with spell slot expended.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogrillian View Post
    To be honest I see this as more of a Druid or cleric ability, those two classes have more durability in melee than wizards.
    Trandir had no option on this with a spell named Fist
    Spoiler: it HAD to be a wizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogrillian View Post
    I donít see if the damage scales with higher spell slots so you could add a knock back effect for higher levels that would give it some utility and justify your glass cannon getting in melee range
    It's a cantrip, they scale with character level tiers, not spell slot levels.
    Usual pattern is one damage die for levels 1-4, two for 5-10, three for 11-16, four for 17-20

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    Trandir had no option on this with a spell named Fist
    Spoiler: it HAD to be a wizard
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    That is indeed the inspiration for this spell. So now wizards everywhere can finally cast Fist, and spellcasters can counterspell it.



    Anyway if some of you think that this is umbalanced it can always mimic shillelagh

    Tenser's Fist

    Transmutation cantrip
    Casting time: 1 bonus action
    Range: Self
    Components: V, M (a piece of cloth worth at least 1 cp)
    Duration: 1 minute

    You imbue your own body with arcane energy allowing you to perform great feats of strength.
    For the duration of the spell you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using unarmed strike, the unarmed strikes are considered magical and their damage die becomes a d8.

    Classes: wizard


    This way no one can say that is unbalanced but I feel like it's also less intresting.
    Last edited by Trandir; 2019-11-11 at 04:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    That is indeed the inspiration for this spell. So now wizards everywhere can finally cast Fist, and spellcasters can counterspell it.



    Anyway if some of you think that this is umbalanced it can always mimic shillelagh

    Tenser's Fist

    Transmutation cantrip
    Casting time: 1 bonus action
    Range: Self
    Components: V, M (a piece of cloth worth at least 1 cp)
    Duration: 1 minute

    You imbue your own body with arcane energy allowing you to perform great feats of strength.
    For the duration of the spell you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using unarmed strike, the unarmed strikes are considered magical and their damage die becomes a d8.

    Classes: wizard


    This way no one can say that is unbalanced but I feel like it's also less intresting.
    I actually like this version better, at least for an EK who wants to use it for Unarmed Fighting. But the original version too much more true to its inspiration for me to recommend changing it to this version in good faith.
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    are you asking us to do research into a setting you wrote yourself?

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Much better! Why don't you let it scale with level? I like the idea of a full unarmed eldritch knight...

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Harry MTX View Post
    Much better! Why don't you let it scale with level? I like the idea of a full unarmed eldritch knight...
    Shillelagh doesn't scale. And that is the same exact spell but for wizards.

    It might be better but it loses the muscle wizard feel

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Trandir View Post
    That is indeed the inspiration for this spell. So now wizards everywhere can finally cast Fist, and spellcasters can counterspell it.



    Anyway if some of you think that this is umbalanced it can always mimic shillelagh

    Tenser's Fist

    Transmutation cantrip
    Casting time: 1 bonus action
    Range: Self
    Components: V, M (a piece of cloth worth at least 1 cp)
    Duration: 1 minute

    You imbue your own body with arcane energy allowing you to perform great feats of strength.
    For the duration of the spell you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using unarmed strike, the unarmed strikes are considered magical and their damage die becomes a d8.

    Classes: wizard


    This way no one can say that is unbalanced but I feel like it's also less intresting.
    What is the downside of this over being a fighter? The big one I can find is the defensive side, you do the same damage (or more, as a caster's casting stat tends to be higher than a martial's strength) without expending any resources but you will keep it up for shorter because of the lack of armor and hitpoints.

    I realize I'm arguing against a core low level spell here, but it feels a bit weird to me, being a cantrip with a casting time of a bonus action and no concentration.

    On the other hand, at this level casters need a good way to stay useful after casting twice. As long as it doesn't scale any better than a fighter's attack it should be fine.
    Last edited by Lvl 2 Expert; 2019-11-12 at 05:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Quote Originally Posted by Lvl 2 Expert View Post
    What is the downside of this over being a fighter? The big one I can find is the defensive side, you do the same damage (or more, as a caster's casting stat tends to be higher than a martial's strength) without expending any resources but you will keep it up for shorter because of the lack of armor and hitpoints.

    I realize I'm arguing against a core low level spell here, but it feels a bit weird to me, being a cantrip with a casting time of a bonus action and no concentration.

    On the other hand, at this level casters need a good way to stay useful after casting twice. As long as it doesn't scale any better than a fighter's attack it should be fine.
    This is shillelagh:


    Shillelagh
    cantrip transmutation
    Casting Time: 1 bonus action
    Range: Touch
    Components: V S M (Mistletoe, a shamrock leaf, and a club or quarterstaff)
    Duration: 1 minute
    Classes: Druid
    The wood of a club or quarterstaff you are holding is imbued with natureís power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of melee attacks using that weapon, and the weaponís damage die becomes a d8. The weapon also becomes magical, if it isnít already. The spell ends if you cast it again or if you let go of the weapon.


    This little thing is the best cantrip for druids at lv 1 since it will never deal less than 4 damage (assuming high wis as any druid should have).
    The second version of Tenser's Fist is almost the same thing minus the need for a weapon for flavour.

    If you ask at lv 1-4 then yes this put you on the same offensive melee level as a fighter or barbarian with no resources but far squishier.

    From lv 5 and beyond martial classes will get melee attack support and/or multiattack so this cantrip would be just one of.

    Also a caster won't use his feats to support one cantrip in favor of stat in lcrease, warcaster or recilient (con). OTOH a fighter with PAM and GWM will do fairly better in melee as it's supposed to be

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Maybe go back to the original version, with a lower damage die but a knock back effect added on? Seems more evocative than the shillelagh one, and it has a bit more of a crowd control / keeping opponents out of melee with your mage element, without outclassing fighter damage etc. Maybe have it do d8 [scaling to 2d8 etc] + Str damage, and say "If you deal at least 5 damage with this spell, the target must take a Str saving check or be pushed back 5' ". (Although I may not be familiar enough with 5e to balance or word this right).
    Last edited by paddyfool; 2019-11-15 at 06:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Cantrip: Fist

    Ok, I changed the cantrip a little. Now it should be balanced but it also keeps the feeling of muscle wizard.

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