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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    That's not true, a level 1 PC is literally a CR 1 encounter, a single CR1 enemy is considered an average battle for a group of 4 players.
    In fact if you look at the tables, 4 CR 1 monsters have a total CR 5, which is over the maximum suggested challenge rating for designing a LEP 1 encounter (CR +3 is already considered an epic fight).
    So, nope, 4 level 1 PCs are not supposed to win easily a CR 5 encounter, they are not supposed to face it at all, the same way the result of a single level 1 PC against a CR 1 monster is uncertain.
    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemasteri...ing_Encounters
    Technically correct (except "a level 1 PC is a CR 1 encounter"; they're CR 1/2 until they hit level 2 with proper level 2 WBL), but in practice not even the way that Paizo sets up their encounters. In general the average encounter difficulty for APs starts at CR 2 and climbs from there, because Paizo realizes that CR 1 encounters are pretty much impossible to build to be worth the time to run them.

    Most CR 1 enemies that come in packs of 4 are not dangerous enough to be considered a CR 5 encounter in the slightest. 4 Gnolls =/= 1 Troll, or Basilisk, or Wraith, or even a Large Elemental.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Entirely in-character, I feel the dwarf would start off as a paladin and then realize this isn't quite working out the way it should. They'd retrain to either an inquisitor or a cleric. No really. You don't have to stay in class anymore. And a character concept to me is not a class, but an idea. And high Wis/Int on a faith based character is just a clerical scholar to me.

    If you however decide that you have to stick with Paladin, the other posters have much more insight than me.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    If it helps the math I got max gold and got a dwarven war axe and banded mail and heavy wooden shield.

    I don’t have the option of retraining. I could multi-class but my first level has to be paladin (stonelord).
    Last edited by Particle_Man; 2019-11-12 at 11:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    There is no strategic advantage to staying in Paladin over multiclassing into something like a Cleric, unfortunately. If you had a higher CHA, you could at least stay for Divine Grace, but it's useless to you with 10 CHA.
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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Stonelord trades out the chr stuff anyhow.
    Last edited by Particle_Man; 2019-11-13 at 12:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Stonelord trades out the chr stuff anyhow.
    It's a fun archetype - but it's generally rather sub-par. The only real reason to take it is to be able to dump your CHA.

    Okay - I'm going to +1 that you drop your paladin class ASAP - BUT - your stat array is actually pretty amazing for one specific build - which happens to be a lot of fun. Being a level behind hurts, but better than continuing to throw levels at paladin to try to make it work.

    Go into monk... with 3 different archetypes stacked. Qinggong, Sensei, and Drunken Master. (yes - you can stack them)

    At 2nd level you will be able to use WIS for your attack rolls, take Quick Drinking (requires a CON of 18 - which you have) to be able to drink booze as a swift action (drinking gives you free ki), get awesome ki abilities with Qinggong.

    At level 6 (of monk) you can have your ki abilities affect your buddies. So... free barkskin for everyone! And then at 10 you can give the abilities to everyone within 30 ft. "Hey everybody - I'm going to give you all True Strike again this turn!" That - plus getting bardic performance (based upon WIS) makes it an amazing support build.

    As an added bonus - with that amount of WIS - your Stunning Fist DC can actually be pretty solid (unlike most monks).
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-11-13 at 12:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Technically correct (except "a level 1 PC is a CR 1 encounter"; they're CR 1/2 until they hit level 2 with proper level 2 WBL), but in practice not even the way that Paizo sets up their encounters. In general the average encounter difficulty for APs starts at CR 2 and climbs from there, because Paizo realizes that CR 1 encounters are pretty much impossible to build to be worth the time to run them.

    Most CR 1 enemies that come in packs of 4 are not dangerous enough to be considered a CR 5 encounter in the slightest. 4 Gnolls =/= 1 Troll, or Basilisk, or Wraith, or even a Large Elemental.
    This would play against your argument, you just said a level 1 character is a CR 1/2 encounter (actually they are CR1 if they have the starting wealth for PC, this is weird at level 1, but it's more consistent later), so a CR1 monster should be even stronger.
    BTW, CR are designed for 15 point buy unoptimized characters, the game is actually more balanced with characters like this 12 str paladin than with pouncing barbarians,but this is the DM's job, the real issue is inter-party balance, if OP's comrades have way stronger characters, which it's likely beacause of this stats generation method, he could be underwhelmed.
    Last edited by Selion; 2019-11-13 at 08:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    This would play against your argument, you just said a level 1 character is a CR 1/2 encounter (actually they are CR1 if they have the starting wealth for PC, this is weird at level 1, but it's more consistent later), so a CR1 monster should be even stronger.
    CR 1/2 is for an NPC stat array. PCs by default have elite stat arrays (if not rolling or point-buy) which would boost the CR.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    This would play against your argument, you just said a level 1 character is a CR 1/2 encounter (actually they are CR1 if they have the starting wealth for PC, this is weird at level 1, but it's more consistent later), so a CR1 monster should be even stronger.
    I've always figured that the general idea is for PCs to be weaker than CR 1 at start, is why they added the "-1 CR for being below WBL" clause. It doesn't really play against my argument at all given that the wealth difference is quickly made up when fighting enemies, generally in the form of dropping several Masterwork weapons before you even get to level 2; this is consistently done across all the APs I've played, with enemies being vastly better geared than the average PC to start.


    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    BTW, CR are designed for 15 point buy unoptimized characters, the game is actually more balanced with characters like this 12 str paladin than with pouncing barbarians,but this is the DM's job, the real issue is inter-party balance, if OP's comrades have way stronger characters, which it's likely beacause of this stats generation method, he could be underwhelmed.
    CR as far as I know is balanced around 20 PB, not 15. Pathfinder Society and Adventure Paths all assume 20 PB, and all of the Iconics are built using 20 PB.

    The OP has the equivalent of a 4 PB in usable combat stats.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    CR as far as I know is balanced around 20 PB, not 15. Pathfinder Society and Adventure Paths all assume 20 PB, and all of the Iconics are built using 20 PB.

    The OP has the equivalent of a 4 PB in usable combat stats.
    I noticed this character has even a low cha, which can be an issue. Op should ask their DM if it's allowed the 3.5 Guided enchantment, otherwise the only one way to be useful i see is the Bodyguard - in harm's way tree of feats

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    I noticed this character has even a low cha, which can be an issue. Op should ask their DM if it's allowed the 3.5 Guided enchantment, otherwise the only one way to be useful i see is the Bodyguard - in harm's way tree of feats
    He should definitely ask about Guided. Unfortunately Bodyguard is not a good option; read the fine print: it requires you to make Attacks of Opportunity.

    Archon Style works a bit better, as I mentioned.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Has the Paladin already fallen?

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    Has the Paladin already fallen?
    Quite the trick to fall at some point between character creation and the first session.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    I doubt my dm will allow the guided property but I will ask. The monk looks interesting though. And since I lose the stuff that works only with no armour I could just keep wearing armour (and if I am caught in a night attack, then the unarmored AC kicks in so it is not too bad). Seems like I need to find a lot of tankards of beer though! Do dungeons have taverns?

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    The monk looks interesting though. And since I lose the stuff that works only with no armour I could just keep wearing armour (and if I am caught in a night attack, then the unarmored AC kicks in so it is not too bad). Seems like I need to find a lot of tankards of beer though! Do dungeons have taverns?
    My drunk monk just carried a skins of hooch! For hard liquor, it only takes 1.5 ounces to be a drink, so one skin will last a fight.

    If you can get someone to cast Mage Armor on you (buy them a wand or a pearl of power), your AC when unarmored will be equal to full plate even at the 1st level of monk. Definitely go unarmored eventually, as you'll get an extra + to monk AC as you level, and likely be able to get + WIS & DEX from items eventually. In addition, your stat-ups should go into WIS, as its your primary stat.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-11-13 at 07:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Selion View Post
    Uhm, you must have had some parameter off, because i haven't got the same results. I can actually do the calculation myself

    p(9)=(1/6)^9=9.93 e-8
    p(10)=9*(1/6)^9=8.93 e-7
    p(11)=(9*8/2+9)*(1/6)^9=4.46 e-6
    p(12)=(9*8*7/3*2+9*8/2 + 9*8/2 +9)*(1/6)^9=1.64 e-5

    which are the same results of the software:

    "output 1",31.500000000004224,5.123475382980105,9,54
    #,%
    9,0.00000992290301275
    10,0.0000893061271148
    11,0.000446530635574
    12,0.0016372789971

    so, you have an answer, dear OP, you have scored a 2 out of 100000 chance
    Hang on, the first line is the probability of rolling all 1's which would produce a score of 3, not 9. Likewise the second line is the probability of rolling a 2 and the rest 1's, for a total of 4.
    Last edited by Biggus; 2019-11-13 at 11:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Point buy is meaningless in this scenario, since every single one of his primary stats (Str, Dex, Cha) except Con is tanked. I think people too often make the mistake of evaluating PB in a vacuum rather than in practice.

    You can (and I have done for some games) just let players take an 18 in every single stat and it doesn't actually change very much for most characters. Like, if someone is playing a Barbarian, for example, the 18 Str and Con is cool (but doable or close to doable otherwise) and the 18 Dex is a cherry over the 14 they'd likely otherwise have...but the 18 Int/Wis/Cha? Largely meaningless in terms of raising the Barbarian's overall power. Nice to have those extra skill points and be able to make use of Cha based skills and have that slight boost to Will saves (which a Barbarian does not in the slightest actually NEED in most scenarios) but that's all they are: nice to have, not a real power boost.

    The OP's spread is full of "nice to have" stats (Con, Wis, Int) but severely lacking in Paladin's "needed for power" stats (Str or Dex and Cha). He's sidestepped the Cha deficiency with an archetype that removes most of the Cha dependent abilities (and replaces it with abilities that are far weaker in most scenarios, but at least function with a 10 Cha) but that still leaves him as a combat class with significantly low combat stats, on paper "16 PB" or no.
    Giving players 18 across the board is way OP IMHO. We normally roll 2*5D6, 3*4D6 and 1*3D6 rerolling 1s. No charachter should have super stats across the board and a stat of 18 at low level should be rare. My current fighter has a charisma of 8. There is nothing wrong with one low stat.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
    Hang on, the first line is the probability of rolling all 1's which would produce a score of 3, not 9. Likewise the second line is the probability of rolling a 2 and the rest 1's, for a total of 4.
    Ahhhh, i read again OP, i skipped the "keep the top three" line, now that i think again about it summing up 9d6 would have been impossible
    Last edited by Selion; 2019-11-14 at 08:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Well I am trying out the Stonelord. Turns out there already is a Sendai in the party so I won’t do that. Offensively I was a bust, missing once and hitting a monster for four hp damage just before someone else slammed it into oblivion, over killing it by more than four hp (admittedly I rolled low on damage). On the upside, we have no rogue so I just went forward opening doors and yes a poison needle got me from a door trap but I just shrugged it off for no damage. So my role may be poor man’s trap detector. 😀

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordante View Post
    Giving players 18 across the board is way OP IMHO. We normally roll 2*5D6, 3*4D6 and 1*3D6 rerolling 1s. No charachter should have super stats across the board and a stat of 18 at low level should be rare. My current fighter has a charisma of 8. There is nothing wrong with one low stat.
    You would think it would be OP, but it's really not. It is about a CR +1 adjustment at first level, admittedly, but really evens out around level 3.

    The key is realizing that stats don't matter; only what a character can DO with them matters. A Fighter can't really do anything with an 18 Charisma or Intelligence for instance; nothing game changing in any case.

    So a stat that doesn't matter is no stat at all.

    If you consider an average character is going to have a spread of roughly 16 14 14 10 10 10 with 20 PB (put those 16s and 14s into their key stats), giving a player an 18 in everything is only a +1 point difference for their highest stat and +2 for the other relevant secondary stats (Dex and Con for a Fighter). This is neat, and powerful at low levels, but not hugely impactful the further the game progresses since you can already hit the point of diminishing returns fairly quickly (if you hit an enemy on a 2 anyway, a +1 to attack rolls doesn't matter, and a +1 to damage matters very little).

    Getting the 18 in those other stats increases things the character typically LIKES to have, but doesn't really need and is not overly impacted by it, or shores up weaknesses that would otherwise be crippling into merely chinks in the armor.

    An 18 in Wisdom is great for the Fighter, giving him a +2-4 extra to Will saves and Perception checks he might otherwise have, but the lack of Good progression will ensure that is merely "okay" by level 5 or so instead of great.

    This applies for pretty much anything else, too. Wizards typically aren't going to care about Str, Con, and Cha, so they get no real benefit out of it they weren't already going to shore up with spells or other options later (like Ant Haul or Bruising Intellect).

    I wouldn't run every game like this, since it does produce "heroic" characters, but it's not "OP" in any real sense since the players are guaranteed to be evenly matched with EACH OTHER in terms of stats and so all challenges can be tweaked accordingly to account for their higher than average challenge level (which diminishes over time).

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    You can turn that around. If all 18's don't matter because stats don't matter, then a paladin having str 12 dex 12 chr 10 doesn't matter because stats don't matter.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    You can turn that around. If all 18's don't matter because stats don't matter, then a paladin having str 12 dex 12 chr 10 doesn't matter because stats don't matter.
    You can't, actually. Remember what I said about hitting the point of diminishing returns?

    You don't hit it until very high level with a setup like that.

    Stats matter the most at lower levels, and less at higher levels when buffs and other boosts can make up the difference. Having higher stats can reduce resource expenditure in the late game (Heroism may or may not be necessary, as an example) but having lower stats will increase expenditure (leading to shorter adventuring days), and you will always struggle in the early game, as you yourself have already experienced.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-11-17 at 07:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Any one else remember when stats would on average be 10? Still do some short adventures with 3d6s with pre-declared averaged minimums. Hilarity ensues when a character hits the extremes though.

    Anyways, 2 orcs should be brought down by a group of 4-5 level 1 PCs even with a CR of only 1/3 as adding another orc would add +2 to the CR which would put it at CR 1. 1 level 1 paladin should not be going toe to toe with the orc in the first place unless that paladin is wanting to have a close call. An APL 1 3 person group should be fighting a CR of 1/2. The rules are clear https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemasteri...ing_Encounters

    A single level 1 should not be coming out of a CR 1 without being nearly dead, on average.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    but having lower stats will increase expenditure (leading to shorter adventuring days), and you will always struggle in the early game,
    This isn't a problem. It is a designed limitation. An average stat is 10. 12 in a stat is exceptional and 14 required intense dedication. 18 means you are unbelievable and 20 means you are a monster. If it is a problem to have lower stats, just give everyone 30 in every stat to remove any inconvenience.
    Last edited by Darg; 2019-11-17 at 11:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Any one else remember when stats would on average be 10? Still do some short adventures with 3d6s with pre-declared averaged minimums. Hilarity ensues when a character hits the extremes though.
    In third edition? 10 was never the average for PCs. 10-11 was average for NPCs (though their primary stat will be 12-14), while PCs are intended to have much higher attributes.

    In earlier editions, attributes meant entirely different things, and generally attributes mattered much less. It's apples to oranges.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-11-17 at 11:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Particle_Man View Post
    Well I am trying out the Stonelord. Turns out there already is a Sendai in the party so I won’t do that. Offensively I was a bust, missing once and hitting a monster for four hp damage just before someone else slammed it into oblivion, over killing it by more than four hp (admittedly I rolled low on damage). On the upside, we have no rogue so I just went forward opening doors and yes a poison needle got me from a door trap but I just shrugged it off for no damage. So my role may be poor man’s trap detector. 😀
    Well, you can go archon style even without digging into monk, so at least you can help your teammates. If you put a few points in dexterity, even with magic items, combat reflexes/bodyguard / in harm's way is still a viable option. Furthermore walking unschated through the battelfied thank to sheer tankiness helps you giving your comrades flanking bonus, which could be increased further with outflank. Try this tanky dude and let us know if it somewhat works.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    In third edition? 10 was never the average for PCs. 10-11 was average for NPCs (though their primary stat will be 12-14), while PCs are intended to have much higher attributes.

    In earlier editions, attributes meant entirely different things, and generally attributes mattered much less. It's apples to oranges.
    Yeah, I was referring to the earlier editions for fun. Even still, the CR system is clearly balanced around a 4-5 person party with a 10 point buy with 12 being high average. Need a high casting stat? You are looking at high level campaign play. The difference between 12 and 18 strength is 15% more hits and 3 more damage. At level 1, it ain't nothin' to sneeze at, but the game isn't designed with solo play in mind. Take what another poster mentioned with how the OP's dwarf is going to take on average 6-7 rounds to kill an orc. Add in one more person with the same crappy strength stat and all of a sudden you cut down the time to 3-3.5 rounds, within the bounds of the balanced encounter and a fitting average match up. Take resistances vs spells/effects. Targeting a weak save more than makes up for having a relatively low casting stat. I won't say having less slots isn't a bad thing, but 18 vs 12 is only 3 spell slots. If 3 spell slots is a problem then people are trying to use magic like a machine gun instead of a tactical advantage. Though that would be the DM's fault for balancing their encounters so that the party needs to be full power all the time and not increasing the length of the average work day.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Yeah, I was referring to the earlier editions for fun. Even still, the CR system is clearly balanced around a 4-5 person party with a 10 point buy with 12 being high average.
    As I mentioned up thread, this is clearly incorrect. Everything is balanced around 20 PB. The iconics are built on 20 PB and the Pathfinder Society limit is 20 PB.

    NPCs are built on 10 (basic) and 15 (Heroic), not PCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Need a high casting stat? You are looking at high level campaign play. The difference between 12 and 18 strength is 15% more hits and 3 more damage. At level 1, it ain't nothin' to sneeze at, but the game isn't designed with solo play in mind. Take what another poster mentioned with how the OP's dwarf is going to take on average 6-7 rounds to kill an orc. Add in one more person with the same crappy strength stat and all of a sudden you cut down the time to 3-3.5 rounds, within the bounds of the balanced encounter and a fitting average match up.
    What are the rest of the Orcs doing in the meantime? Up to 3 Orcs is can be a reasonable challenge for a party of 4 PCs going by the CR tables.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Take resistances vs spells/effects. Targeting a weak save more than makes up for having a relatively low casting stat. I won't say having less slots isn't a bad thing, but 18 vs 12 is only 3 spell slots. If 3 spell slots is a problem then people are trying to use magic like a machine gun instead of a tactical advantage. Though that would be the DM's fault for balancing their encounters so that the party needs to be full power all the time and not increasing the length of the average work day.
    This is also incorrect. Poor saves scale faster in Pathfinder than 3.5, to my recollection. If you have a 12 casting stat, targeting the CR 1 creature's poor save (which is kind of difficult given you have so few spell available at 1st, but let's assume) You're throwing a DC 12 saving throw at it. It still saves on a 10 with its Poor save.

    As you level, let's assume you eke out the minimum require casting stat for your spell, so at level 10 you have a 15 casting stat. The CR 10 enemy's poor save is +9 vs your DC 17 with a 5th level spell. They now save on an 8. Your best spell has a 35% chance of success under optimal circumstances. In other words, you suck.

    Your chances of failure rise as your levels rise. It in no way "makes up" for the low casting stat if you target its poor save. Even worse, again, your spell selection is limited, and the effects themselves are limited. Most save or die/suck spells give Fort or Will saves, while most damage spells give Ref saves. If your enemy's poor save is Ref, then you may very well not have a save or die/suck spell available for that save, and so not only do you not have a 35% chance of ending the encounter (which is already terrible odds) you only have a 35% chance to do something significantly less effective than ending the encounter.

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    What are the rest of the Orcs doing in the meantime? Up to 3 Orcs is can be a reasonable challenge for a party of 4 PCs going by the CR tables.
    3 Orcs have a CR of 2 (3 creatures = CR + 3, 1/3 > 1/2 > 1 > 2) which would put it under challenging, not average. The average encounter is balanced around 3-4 rounds. Challenging encounters are not balanced in such a way.



    This is also incorrect. Poor saves scale faster in Pathfinder than 3.5, to my recollection. If you have a 12 casting stat, targeting the CR 1 creature's poor save (which is kind of difficult given you have so few spell available at 1st, but let's assume) You're throwing a DC 12 saving throw at it. It still saves on a 10 with its Poor save.
    The orc has a -1 in will saves and are great fodder for sleep.

    As you level, let's assume you eke out the minimum require casting stat for your spell, so at level 10 you have a 15 casting stat. The CR 10 enemy's poor save is +9 vs your DC 17 with a 5th level spell. They now save on an 8. Your best spell has a 35% chance of success under optimal circumstances. In other words, you suck.

    Your chances of failure rise as your levels rise. It in no way "makes up" for the low casting stat if you target its poor save. Even worse, again, your spell selection is limited, and the effects themselves are limited. Most save or die/suck spells give Fort or Will saves, while most damage spells give Ref saves. If your enemy's poor save is Ref, then you may very well not have a save or die/suck spell available for that save, and so not only do you not have a 35% chance of ending the encounter (which is already terrible odds) you only have a 35% chance to do something significantly less effective than ending the encounter.
    You are looking at it all wrong. Even if the player started with 18 in the stat the chance is still only 50%. A single CR 10 enemy is what a group of 4-5 PCs with an APL of 10 are meant to fight. There are other spells able to be used in such a situation so that you don't risk wasting your spell in the first place. 5 CR 5 enemies have a combined CR of 10 and each one has a low save of 4. By level 10 the caster should have at minimum a +4 enhance bonus for a more than likely +4 modifier. A 5th level spell would have a DC of 19. Against those the group of creatures the caster would have a 70% chance to affect them and a 45% chance against the mobbed single creature. A caster with 6 more in the stat still only brings the % to 85 and 60. Ya, it's better, but not much more reliable. As a caster, I would prefer to use spells that are much more reliable in their effects for such encounters in the first place such as a buff or no save. Still, with an appropriate weapon, buffs, and a couple feats even a mage would have ~50% chance to hit with a weapon against a CR 10 creature. Since this is PF there is a plethora of abilities to use in addition to everything else.

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    3 Orcs have a CR of 2 (3 creatures = CR + 3, 1/3 > 1/2 > 1 > 2) which would put it under challenging, not average. The average encounter is balanced around 3-4 rounds. Challenging encounters are not balanced in such a way.
    I never said anything about 3-4 rounds for this particular combat (though I'd imagine it still WOULD be over in 5 or under, one way or another with a party of all 12s).

    It is still a reasonable challenge, and one the party is supposed to face a couple of times per day. You're typically looking at a single Hard or greater encounter, two Challenging ones, and 3-ish Average to Easy in a day.

    To be honest though, I'm not entirely sure why I'm bothering to argue about the CR system at all. Nobody really uses it, because it's an overall worthless metric for determining how difficult an encounter is going to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    The orc has a -1 in will saves and are great fodder for sleep.
    Correct, which is excellent if you have prepared/known Color Spray or Sleep as your one spell, but not so great if you took Grease or Snowball instead.



    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    You are looking at it all wrong. Even if the player started with 18 in the stat the chance is still only 50%.
    55%, which is leagues better than 35%. I would bet my life in a pinch on a better than 50/50 chance; I would not bet it on a slightly better than 1/3 chance of survival.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    A single CR 10 enemy is what a group of 4-5 PCs with an APL of 10 are meant to fight. There are other spells able to be used in such a situation so that you don't risk wasting your spell in the first place. 5 CR 5 enemies have a combined CR of 10 and each one has a low save of 4.
    You can throw up to a trio of CR 10 enemies at an APL 10 party and expect them to come out on top. Challenging and Hard encounters are still designed to be overcome. That is my point. You will face encounters above your APL with frightening regularity in any campaign the GM is not purposefully softballing you. This includes published content.

    Also what "other spells"? We're assuming you're using your best spell remember? You're targeting their weak save with your strongest spell and still sucking ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    By level 10 the caster should have at minimum a +4 enhance bonus for a more than likely +4 modifier. A 5th level spell would have a DC of 19. Against those the group of creatures the caster would have a 70% chance to affect them and a 45% chance against the mobbed single creature. A caster with 6 more in the stat still only brings the % to 85 and 60. Ya, it's better, but not much more reliable. As a caster, I would prefer to use spells that are much more reliable in their effects for such encounters in the first place such as a buff or no save. Still, with an appropriate weapon, buffs, and a couple feats even a mage would have ~50% chance to hit with a weapon against a CR 10 creature. Since this is PF there is a plethora of abilities to use in addition to everything else.
    Even assuming you're correct (I typically only assume a +2 Enhance at level 10 because it can be difficult to scrape the money together for a 16k gp expenditure when you still have other expenses in the Big 6 alone and still want stuff like Metamagic Rods) I'm not sure you quite understand the gulf of magnitude between a 45% chance and a 60% chance in how reliable something is. A 15% difference is enormous over the length of a campaign.

    And sure, you can always fall back on being a buff-bot, but not very many people like to play dedicated support and keep a passive role. Do you understand how boring it is to say "I cast Haste" at the start of every combat?

    Also where are you getting this "50% chance to hit with a weapon" crock? You're hitting an expected AC of 24, with an attack bonus of +6 if you're lucky. That's a 10% chance, not a 50%. Your CASTING STAT is a 12, why would your Str or Dex be any higher?

    And even when you do hit, what then? You're smacking them for what, a d8+2? 6 damage vs 130 HP plus likely DR reducing that damage to 1 or even 0?
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-11-19 at 04:12 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    It's usually pretty hard to do since the GM uses some reasonable character creation method. "Choose class, then roll stats" is one of the worst charop methods I've ever heard of.

    @OP: Take an archetype that gives you Channel early or dip Cleric, then take Guided Hand. This will at least let you hit more than once in a blue moon once you painstakingly crawl your way to level 3. Sadly Torag isn't a deity with a ranged favored weapon.
    I think I will dip a level of cleric with the crusader archetype and the archon domain. That will give me a mini buff role if I desire and a bonus on my attack rolls by level 5. I can improve my str to 13 at level 4 and take power attack at level 7. I will still likely stick with paladin (stonelord) after that but will see how it goes.

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