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Thread: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
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2019-11-12, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
Technically correct (except "a level 1 PC is a CR 1 encounter"; they're CR 1/2 until they hit level 2 with proper level 2 WBL), but in practice not even the way that Paizo sets up their encounters. In general the average encounter difficulty for APs starts at CR 2 and climbs from there, because Paizo realizes that CR 1 encounters are pretty much impossible to build to be worth the time to run them.
Most CR 1 enemies that come in packs of 4 are not dangerous enough to be considered a CR 5 encounter in the slightest. 4 Gnolls =/= 1 Troll, or Basilisk, or Wraith, or even a Large Elemental.
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2019-11-12, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
Entirely in-character, I feel the dwarf would start off as a paladin and then realize this isn't quite working out the way it should. They'd retrain to either an inquisitor or a cleric. No really. You don't have to stay in class anymore. And a character concept to me is not a class, but an idea. And high Wis/Int on a faith based character is just a clerical scholar to me.
If you however decide that you have to stick with Paladin, the other posters have much more insight than me.
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2019-11-12, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
If it helps the math I got max gold and got a dwarven war axe and banded mail and heavy wooden shield.
I don’t have the option of retraining. I could multi-class but my first level has to be paladin (stonelord).
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2019-11-12, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
There is no strategic advantage to staying in Paladin over multiclassing into something like a Cleric, unfortunately. If you had a higher CHA, you could at least stay for Divine Grace, but it's useless to you with 10 CHA.
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2019-11-13, 12:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-11-13, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
It's a fun archetype - but it's generally rather sub-par. The only real reason to take it is to be able to dump your CHA.
Okay - I'm going to +1 that you drop your paladin class ASAP - BUT - your stat array is actually pretty amazing for one specific build - which happens to be a lot of fun. Being a level behind hurts, but better than continuing to throw levels at paladin to try to make it work.
Go into monk... with 3 different archetypes stacked. Qinggong, Sensei, and Drunken Master. (yes - you can stack them)
At 2nd level you will be able to use WIS for your attack rolls, take Quick Drinking (requires a CON of 18 - which you have) to be able to drink booze as a swift action (drinking gives you free ki), get awesome ki abilities with Qinggong.
At level 6 (of monk) you can have your ki abilities affect your buddies. So... free barkskin for everyone! And then at 10 you can give the abilities to everyone within 30 ft. "Hey everybody - I'm going to give you all True Strike again this turn!" That - plus getting bardic performance (based upon WIS) makes it an amazing support build.
As an added bonus - with that amount of WIS - your Stunning Fist DC can actually be pretty solid (unlike most monks).Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-11-13 at 12:34 AM.
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2019-11-13, 06:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
This would play against your argument, you just said a level 1 character is a CR 1/2 encounter (actually they are CR1 if they have the starting wealth for PC, this is weird at level 1, but it's more consistent later), so a CR1 monster should be even stronger.
BTW, CR are designed for 15 point buy unoptimized characters, the game is actually more balanced with characters like this 12 str paladin than with pouncing barbarians,but this is the DM's job, the real issue is inter-party balance, if OP's comrades have way stronger characters, which it's likely beacause of this stats generation method, he could be underwhelmed.Last edited by Selion; 2019-11-13 at 08:15 AM.
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2019-11-13, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
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2019-11-13, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
I've always figured that the general idea is for PCs to be weaker than CR 1 at start, is why they added the "-1 CR for being below WBL" clause. It doesn't really play against my argument at all given that the wealth difference is quickly made up when fighting enemies, generally in the form of dropping several Masterwork weapons before you even get to level 2; this is consistently done across all the APs I've played, with enemies being vastly better geared than the average PC to start.
CR as far as I know is balanced around 20 PB, not 15. Pathfinder Society and Adventure Paths all assume 20 PB, and all of the Iconics are built using 20 PB.
The OP has the equivalent of a 4 PB in usable combat stats.
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2019-11-13, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
I noticed this character has even a low cha, which can be an issue. Op should ask their DM if it's allowed the 3.5 Guided enchantment, otherwise the only one way to be useful i see is the Bodyguard - in harm's way tree of feats
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2019-11-13, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-11-13, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
Has the Paladin already fallen?
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2019-11-13, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-11-13, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
I doubt my dm will allow the guided property but I will ask. The monk looks interesting though. And since I lose the stuff that works only with no armour I could just keep wearing armour (and if I am caught in a night attack, then the unarmored AC kicks in so it is not too bad). Seems like I need to find a lot of tankards of beer though! Do dungeons have taverns?
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2019-11-13, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
My drunk monk just carried a skins of hooch! For hard liquor, it only takes 1.5 ounces to be a drink, so one skin will last a fight.
If you can get someone to cast Mage Armor on you (buy them a wand or a pearl of power), your AC when unarmored will be equal to full plate even at the 1st level of monk. Definitely go unarmored eventually, as you'll get an extra + to monk AC as you level, and likely be able to get + WIS & DEX from items eventually. In addition, your stat-ups should go into WIS, as its your primary stat.Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-11-13 at 07:25 PM.
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2019-11-13, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
Last edited by Biggus; 2019-11-13 at 11:52 PM.
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2019-11-14, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
Giving players 18 across the board is way OP IMHO. We normally roll 2*5D6, 3*4D6 and 1*3D6 rerolling 1s. No charachter should have super stats across the board and a stat of 18 at low level should be rare. My current fighter has a charisma of 8. There is nothing wrong with one low stat.
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2019-11-14, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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2019-11-17, 05:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
Well I am trying out the Stonelord. Turns out there already is a Sendai in the party so I won’t do that. Offensively I was a bust, missing once and hitting a monster for four hp damage just before someone else slammed it into oblivion, over killing it by more than four hp (admittedly I rolled low on damage). On the upside, we have no rogue so I just went forward opening doors and yes a poison needle got me from a door trap but I just shrugged it off for no damage. So my role may be poor man’s trap detector. 😀
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2019-11-17, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
You would think it would be OP, but it's really not. It is about a CR +1 adjustment at first level, admittedly, but really evens out around level 3.
The key is realizing that stats don't matter; only what a character can DO with them matters. A Fighter can't really do anything with an 18 Charisma or Intelligence for instance; nothing game changing in any case.
So a stat that doesn't matter is no stat at all.
If you consider an average character is going to have a spread of roughly 16 14 14 10 10 10 with 20 PB (put those 16s and 14s into their key stats), giving a player an 18 in everything is only a +1 point difference for their highest stat and +2 for the other relevant secondary stats (Dex and Con for a Fighter). This is neat, and powerful at low levels, but not hugely impactful the further the game progresses since you can already hit the point of diminishing returns fairly quickly (if you hit an enemy on a 2 anyway, a +1 to attack rolls doesn't matter, and a +1 to damage matters very little).
Getting the 18 in those other stats increases things the character typically LIKES to have, but doesn't really need and is not overly impacted by it, or shores up weaknesses that would otherwise be crippling into merely chinks in the armor.
An 18 in Wisdom is great for the Fighter, giving him a +2-4 extra to Will saves and Perception checks he might otherwise have, but the lack of Good progression will ensure that is merely "okay" by level 5 or so instead of great.
This applies for pretty much anything else, too. Wizards typically aren't going to care about Str, Con, and Cha, so they get no real benefit out of it they weren't already going to shore up with spells or other options later (like Ant Haul or Bruising Intellect).
I wouldn't run every game like this, since it does produce "heroic" characters, but it's not "OP" in any real sense since the players are guaranteed to be evenly matched with EACH OTHER in terms of stats and so all challenges can be tweaked accordingly to account for their higher than average challenge level (which diminishes over time).
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2019-11-17, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2019-11-17, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
You can't, actually. Remember what I said about hitting the point of diminishing returns?
You don't hit it until very high level with a setup like that.
Stats matter the most at lower levels, and less at higher levels when buffs and other boosts can make up the difference. Having higher stats can reduce resource expenditure in the late game (Heroism may or may not be necessary, as an example) but having lower stats will increase expenditure (leading to shorter adventuring days), and you will always struggle in the early game, as you yourself have already experienced.Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-11-17 at 07:16 PM.
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2019-11-17, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
Any one else remember when stats would on average be 10? Still do some short adventures with 3d6s with pre-declared averaged minimums. Hilarity ensues when a character hits the extremes though.
Anyways, 2 orcs should be brought down by a group of 4-5 level 1 PCs even with a CR of only 1/3 as adding another orc would add +2 to the CR which would put it at CR 1. 1 level 1 paladin should not be going toe to toe with the orc in the first place unless that paladin is wanting to have a close call. An APL 1 3 person group should be fighting a CR of 1/2. The rules are clear https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemasteri...ing_Encounters
A single level 1 should not be coming out of a CR 1 without being nearly dead, on average.
This isn't a problem. It is a designed limitation. An average stat is 10. 12 in a stat is exceptional and 14 required intense dedication. 18 means you are unbelievable and 20 means you are a monster. If it is a problem to have lower stats, just give everyone 30 in every stat to remove any inconvenience.Last edited by Darg; 2019-11-17 at 11:29 PM.
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2019-11-17, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
In third edition? 10 was never the average for PCs. 10-11 was average for NPCs (though their primary stat will be 12-14), while PCs are intended to have much higher attributes.
In earlier editions, attributes meant entirely different things, and generally attributes mattered much less. It's apples to oranges.Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2019-11-17 at 11:34 PM.
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2019-11-18, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
Well, you can go archon style even without digging into monk, so at least you can help your teammates. If you put a few points in dexterity, even with magic items, combat reflexes/bodyguard / in harm's way is still a viable option. Furthermore walking unschated through the battelfied thank to sheer tankiness helps you giving your comrades flanking bonus, which could be increased further with outflank. Try this tanky dude and let us know if it somewhat works.
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2019-11-18, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
Yeah, I was referring to the earlier editions for fun. Even still, the CR system is clearly balanced around a 4-5 person party with a 10 point buy with 12 being high average. Need a high casting stat? You are looking at high level campaign play. The difference between 12 and 18 strength is 15% more hits and 3 more damage. At level 1, it ain't nothin' to sneeze at, but the game isn't designed with solo play in mind. Take what another poster mentioned with how the OP's dwarf is going to take on average 6-7 rounds to kill an orc. Add in one more person with the same crappy strength stat and all of a sudden you cut down the time to 3-3.5 rounds, within the bounds of the balanced encounter and a fitting average match up. Take resistances vs spells/effects. Targeting a weak save more than makes up for having a relatively low casting stat. I won't say having less slots isn't a bad thing, but 18 vs 12 is only 3 spell slots. If 3 spell slots is a problem then people are trying to use magic like a machine gun instead of a tactical advantage. Though that would be the DM's fault for balancing their encounters so that the party needs to be full power all the time and not increasing the length of the average work day.
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2019-11-18, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
As I mentioned up thread, this is clearly incorrect. Everything is balanced around 20 PB. The iconics are built on 20 PB and the Pathfinder Society limit is 20 PB.
NPCs are built on 10 (basic) and 15 (Heroic), not PCs.
What are the rest of the Orcs doing in the meantime? Up to 3 Orcs is can be a reasonable challenge for a party of 4 PCs going by the CR tables.
This is also incorrect. Poor saves scale faster in Pathfinder than 3.5, to my recollection. If you have a 12 casting stat, targeting the CR 1 creature's poor save (which is kind of difficult given you have so few spell available at 1st, but let's assume) You're throwing a DC 12 saving throw at it. It still saves on a 10 with its Poor save.
As you level, let's assume you eke out the minimum require casting stat for your spell, so at level 10 you have a 15 casting stat. The CR 10 enemy's poor save is +9 vs your DC 17 with a 5th level spell. They now save on an 8. Your best spell has a 35% chance of success under optimal circumstances. In other words, you suck.
Your chances of failure rise as your levels rise. It in no way "makes up" for the low casting stat if you target its poor save. Even worse, again, your spell selection is limited, and the effects themselves are limited. Most save or die/suck spells give Fort or Will saves, while most damage spells give Ref saves. If your enemy's poor save is Ref, then you may very well not have a save or die/suck spell available for that save, and so not only do you not have a 35% chance of ending the encounter (which is already terrible odds) you only have a 35% chance to do something significantly less effective than ending the encounter.
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2019-11-19, 04:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
3 Orcs have a CR of 2 (3 creatures = CR + 3, 1/3 > 1/2 > 1 > 2) which would put it under challenging, not average. The average encounter is balanced around 3-4 rounds. Challenging encounters are not balanced in such a way.
This is also incorrect. Poor saves scale faster in Pathfinder than 3.5, to my recollection. If you have a 12 casting stat, targeting the CR 1 creature's poor save (which is kind of difficult given you have so few spell available at 1st, but let's assume) You're throwing a DC 12 saving throw at it. It still saves on a 10 with its Poor save.
As you level, let's assume you eke out the minimum require casting stat for your spell, so at level 10 you have a 15 casting stat. The CR 10 enemy's poor save is +9 vs your DC 17 with a 5th level spell. They now save on an 8. Your best spell has a 35% chance of success under optimal circumstances. In other words, you suck.
Your chances of failure rise as your levels rise. It in no way "makes up" for the low casting stat if you target its poor save. Even worse, again, your spell selection is limited, and the effects themselves are limited. Most save or die/suck spells give Fort or Will saves, while most damage spells give Ref saves. If your enemy's poor save is Ref, then you may very well not have a save or die/suck spell available for that save, and so not only do you not have a 35% chance of ending the encounter (which is already terrible odds) you only have a 35% chance to do something significantly less effective than ending the encounter.
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2019-11-19, 04:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
I never said anything about 3-4 rounds for this particular combat (though I'd imagine it still WOULD be over in 5 or under, one way or another with a party of all 12s).
It is still a reasonable challenge, and one the party is supposed to face a couple of times per day. You're typically looking at a single Hard or greater encounter, two Challenging ones, and 3-ish Average to Easy in a day.
To be honest though, I'm not entirely sure why I'm bothering to argue about the CR system at all. Nobody really uses it, because it's an overall worthless metric for determining how difficult an encounter is going to be.
Correct, which is excellent if you have prepared/known Color Spray or Sleep as your one spell, but not so great if you took Grease or Snowball instead.
55%, which is leagues better than 35%. I would bet my life in a pinch on a better than 50/50 chance; I would not bet it on a slightly better than 1/3 chance of survival.
You can throw up to a trio of CR 10 enemies at an APL 10 party and expect them to come out on top. Challenging and Hard encounters are still designed to be overcome. That is my point. You will face encounters above your APL with frightening regularity in any campaign the GM is not purposefully softballing you. This includes published content.
Also what "other spells"? We're assuming you're using your best spell remember? You're targeting their weak save with your strongest spell and still sucking ass.
Even assuming you're correct (I typically only assume a +2 Enhance at level 10 because it can be difficult to scrape the money together for a 16k gp expenditure when you still have other expenses in the Big 6 alone and still want stuff like Metamagic Rods) I'm not sure you quite understand the gulf of magnitude between a 45% chance and a 60% chance in how reliable something is. A 15% difference is enormous over the length of a campaign.
And sure, you can always fall back on being a buff-bot, but not very many people like to play dedicated support and keep a passive role. Do you understand how boring it is to say "I cast Haste" at the start of every combat?
Also where are you getting this "50% chance to hit with a weapon" crock? You're hitting an expected AC of 24, with an attack bonus of +6 if you're lucky. That's a 10% chance, not a 50%. Your CASTING STAT is a 12, why would your Str or Dex be any higher?
And even when you do hit, what then? You're smacking them for what, a d8+2? 6 damage vs 130 HP plus likely DR reducing that damage to 1 or even 0?Last edited by Rynjin; 2019-11-19 at 04:12 PM.
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2019-11-20, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Str 12 Paladin! Fear me, Evil!
I think I will dip a level of cleric with the crusader archetype and the archon domain. That will give me a mini buff role if I desire and a bonus on my attack rolls by level 5. I can improve my str to 13 at level 4 and take power attack at level 7. I will still likely stick with paladin (stonelord) after that but will see how it goes.