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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    Just to confirm, here, your position is that this is fine:
    "Druids cannot wear metal armor, because the sacred oaths they take as part of becoming a Druid forbid such equipment. If they do so, they cannot memorize or cast Druid spells until they remove the armor."

    But this is not fine:
    "Druids will not wear metal armor, because the sacred oaths they take as part of becoming a Druid forbid such equipment. If they do so, they cannot memorize or cast Druid spells until they remove the armor."

    Literally the only difference is "cannot" vs. "will not." I just want to be certain you're saying that that's the difference you need.
    No. Phrased like that, my position would be that this:

    "Druids cannot wear metal armor, because the sacred oaths they take as part of becoming a Druid forbid such equipment. If they do so, they cannot memorize or cast Druid spells until they remove the armor."
    is less unacceptable than this:

    "Druids will not wear metal armor, because the sacred oaths they take as part of becoming a Druid forbid such equipment. If they do so, they cannot memorize or cast Druid spells until they remove the armor."
    It would still be unacceptable in comparison to "Monks that wear armor or use shields do not gain the benefit of Class Features Blah, Blah, Blah, and Blah." Nothing about " Monks can't wear armor" or "Monks won't wear armor".

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    Whoever wrote it probably assumed that druids won't wear metal armor so consequences for doing so weren't needed since they wouldn't wear it.
    Might make sense... but that's not how they write stuff normal. I'd say it make more sense to assume a paladin won't murder innocent by-stander for fun then a druid wear metal armor. Yet they specifically mention it for paladin but not druid...

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    so to address a problem that you have with druid's wild shapes you use armor limitations that has no impact on said feature? The player can be running around in a string bikini and it doesn't affect wild shapes.
    I have no problem at all with druid's wild shapes. Honestly, I have no idea where you got that from, since I did not criticize wildshape in any way. I think it's an awesome feature. But, when in wildshape, the scale mail stealth penalty does not apply, and that creates a balance issue, the moment the druid gets OUT of wildshape, the first round of combat, with no stealth penalty, with an 18 AC (if he's a moon druid, the moment he gets kicked out of his wildshape, his AC is immediately 18, and he also did not have stealth disadvantage before getting in combat).

    With point-buy, the character that can do this at level 2 is the melee dex Fighter/Ranger/Paladin who took defense as his fighting style (not the most common or optimal style for dex characters, so they are paying for that. Druid gets that for free if they can wear metal armors)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hail Tempus View Post
    Most Druids carry a shield as well, so an AC 18 would be pretty standard if a breastplate or scale mail was allowed.
    I'm addressing specifically scale mail. Breastplate is already somewhat expensive, and won't be immediately available in most campaigns. By the time it is, half-plate is just around the corner, and the same reasoning applies, now for 1 AC higher.

    But, around levels 6-8, dex characters start having the same AC without stealth disadvantage, and str characters have better AC with the disadvantage. It's a good moment to let Druids find alternative material armor.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-11-14 at 05:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I have no problem at all with druid's wild shapes. Honestly, I have no idea where you got that from, since I did not criticize wildshape in any way. I think it's an awesome feature. But, when in wildshape, the scale mail stealth penalty does not apply, and that creates a balance issue, the moment the druid gets OUT of wildshape, the first round of combat, with no stealth penalty, with an 18 AC (if he's a moon druid, the moment he gets kicked out of his wildshape, his AC is immediately 18, and he also did not have stealth disadvantage before getting in combat).

    With point-buy, the character that can do this at level 2 is the melee dex Fighter/Ranger/Paladin who took defense as his fighting style (not the most common or optimal style for dex characters, so they are paying for that. Druid gets that for free if they can wear metal armors)



    I'm addressing specifically scale mail. Breastplate is already somewhat expensive, and won't be immediately available in most campaigns. By the time it is, half-plate is just around the corner, and the same reasoning applies, now for 1 AC higher.

    But, around levels 6-8, dex characters start having the same AC without stealth disadvantage, and str characters have better AC with the disadvantage. It's a good moment to let Druids find alternative material armor.
    This makes no sense to me. either they're using wild shape to bypass the stealth penalty that limiting their ability to use a form that's better in combat but they also lose all the advantages of said armor because most of the sneaky beast have low AC AND blowing their first round action to come out of wild shapes.

    Also, any level 1 character in starting heavy armor is going to have 18 AC without a fighting style and 19 with defense. The druid starts with leather armor so maybe they will have 16 max(assuming at least a 16 in Dex) until they can buy better armor.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    As for fluff justification, not wearing metal armor is as old as the druid class in D&D. You could check the reasons given in all the previous editions :)
    It's generally the same sacred oath/natural products kind of wibbly-wobbly that invites 'so why armor and not everything else?' questions. That actually kinda fits, given that real-world religious and cultural taboos are inconsistent as well. It's worth noting that previous editions had different ethea with regards to both rules consequences and player agency. In oD&D, for instance, magic users could not wear armor and only wield daggers and there wasn't explanation, justification, or consequence and that wasn't routinely noted as being particularly troublesome (although, to be fair, AD&D came out within a half-decade and did provide some solid explanations and rules for what happens if a magic user does anyways).
    Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2019-11-14 at 10:27 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Didn't read all this shenanigans.

    But the way I always took it was like they are, for example, vegetarians but would eat meat if it meant not starving. If they had to pick up a metal shield to block the ogre from killing them, they would. But they'd drop it again right after. Like in Star Wars Revenge of the Sith...Obi Wan loses his lightsaber and needs to shoot General Grievous? Ok fine, he'll do it. But then cast the blaster aside in disdain.

    You want to play a druid who gets to min-max AC in metal armor and build some convoluted backstory to explain why your PC is somehow a Druid instead of a Cleric because you, the player, like the high AC but also the Wild Shape? Well, you're quite the Edgelord.

    Then again, we live in a society where people go "camping" to commune with nature ... in a large, motorized apartment on wheels with Air Conditioning, a flushing toilet, a shower, kitchen, and TV/WiFi...

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    This makes no sense to me. either they're using wild shape to bypass the stealth penalty that limiting their ability to use a form that's better in combat but they also lose all the advantages of said armor because most of the sneaky beast have low AC AND blowing their first round action to come out of wild shapes.

    Also, any level 1 character in starting heavy armor is going to have 18 AC without a fighting style and 19 with defense. The druid starts with leather armor so maybe they will have 16 max(assuming at least a 16 in Dex) until they can buy better armor.
    Getting OUT of wildshape is a bonus action, for any Druid. A relatively small cost to completely bypass stealth penalties and have 18 AC at level 2. To achieve that, a character has to:
    1- be a high-dex character
    2-wear a shield
    3-have defense as his fighting style.

    Druids can do it with dex 14 and a bonus action (yes, and 45 gp to upgrade his leather armor, which is not hard to have by level 2)
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-11-14 at 09:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Getting OUT of wildshape is a bonus action, for any Druid. A relatively small cost to completely bypass stealth penalties and have 18 AC at level 2.
    Bonus action is 1/4 of the total action economy. the importance of that varies from player to player but saying that it's somehow a zero cost is nonsense.
    Also, if they do not go first they are probably in a very low AC form so let's hope they aren't concentrating on anything important. Seems pretty risk/reward to me, trading AC and use of wild shapes for stealth and utility.

    Where is the 18AC from? As I stated they only start at 16 and unless you are handling out 3x the relevant wealth per level they won't be able to buy that scale until lv 3. So if the druid has 18 from upgrades then the martial class has 20-21.

    Level 2 is arguably the strongest point of the entire druid class and even then having a reasonable AC isn't anywhere near to being put on the list of issues the class has.
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by CorporateSlave View Post
    Then again, we live in a society where people go "camping" to commune with nature ... in a large, motorized apartment on wheels with Air Conditioning, a flushing toilet, a shower, kitchen, and TV/WiFi...
    I mean, it doesn't say anywhere that druids won't use metal caravans or wifi.
    I love the idea of a Druid recharging himself by watching documentaries in tv

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics



    Here we see a true druid preparing the materials for a wooden splint mail.
    Ur-member and coffee caterer of the fan club.

    I wish people would stop using phrases such as "in my humble opinion", "just my two cents", and "we're out of coffee".

    Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for they are out drinking coffee and, like, whatever.

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Bonus action is 1/4 of the total action economy. the importance of that varies from player to player but saying that it's somehow a zero cost is nonsense.
    Also, if they do not go first they are probably in a very low AC form so let's hope they aren't concentrating on anything important. Seems pretty risk/reward to me, trading AC and use of wild shapes for stealth and utility.

    Where is the 18AC from? As I stated they only start at 16 and unless you are handling out 3x the relevant wealth per level they won't be able to buy that scale until lv 3. So if the druid has 18 from upgrades then the martial class has 20-21.

    Level 2 is arguably the strongest point of the entire druid class and even then having a reasonable AC isn't anywhere near to being put on the list of issues the class has.
    In Xanathar's shared campaign rules(which I suppose is the best approximation we have of expected wealth by level) , gp reward for reaching level 2 is 75 gp. More than enough to buy scale mail. Dex characters are now getting their studded leather and reaching AC 17 if they are wearing a shield (many are ranged characters with no shields). Str characters are still at 18 (with stealth disadvantage).

    With 2 short rests, a level 2 druid can remain in wildshape for 6 hours of the 8 hour day. Many campaigns work with shorter exploring hours.

    And level 2 is the strongest relative point for Moon Druids, not so much for other druids. That is, unless you buff them by ignoring the rulebook and letting them wear metal scale mail. That might just enough to push all druids as the most powerful characters at level 2 (when bonus actions are still relatively unused, for what it's worth).
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-11-14 at 10:42 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    So, what's the cut-off point for AC?

    17 AC without disadvantage on Stealth is too much, what about 16? 15? What's the line?
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    So, what's the cut-off point for AC?

    17 AC without disadvantage on Stealth is too much, what about 16? 15? What's the line?
    Cut-off point is relative. It's whatever does not make the druid have the best AC without disadvantage. If you are running a high-powered campaign where characters start at level 1 with full plate and 20 Dex, it's ok to have druids wear metal armor (or buy alternative material armor) from level 1.

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    In Xanathar's shared campaign rules(which I suppose is the best approximation we have of expected wealth by level) , gp reward for reaching level 2 is 75 gp. More than enough to buy scale mail. Dex characters are now getting their studded leather and reaching AC 17 if they are wearing a shield (many are ranged characters with no shields). Str characters are still at 18 (with stealth disadvantage).

    With 2 short rests, a level 2 druid can remain in wildshape for 6 hours of the 8 hour day. Many campaigns work with shorter exploring hours.

    And level 2 is the strongest relative point for Moon Druids, not so much for other druids. That is, unless you buff them by ignoring the rulebook and letting them wear metal scale mail. That might just enough to push all druids as the most powerful characters at level 2 (when bonus actions are still relatively unused, for what it's worth).
    The cost of heavy armor has be noted as being put of line for a long time. Not an issue with druid or medium armor. If anything they are probably double of what they should be.
    I figured that 75 gold has to cover, living expenses, any tools/ healing kits(druid start with herbalism kit proficiency but not the kit it self), consumables, transportation fees, and who knows what else. A few bad rolls and maybe the party is pooling gold to revive a party member or a NPC they failed to protect. it's just fair if you're going to assume the druid has an upgrade than the pseudo heavy armor wearer should have splint.

    Lv 2 is a strong point I druid because like wizards they get a subclass. Forget moon druid, shepherd is the king of lv 2.

    you keep coming back to wild shapes is the issue but the armor will have zero effect on it. It's like if I think fireballs too powerful so I take away mage armor.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Cut-off point is relative. It's whatever does not make the druid have the best AC without disadvantage. If you are running a high-powered campaign where characters start at level 1 with full plate and 20 Dex, it's ok to have druids wear metal armor (or buy alternative material armor) from level 1.
    So, at level 2. Normal point buy, no special rules, just a simple, clean game.

    Is 16 AC still too high? Is 15?
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  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by sithlordnergal View Post
    I'm curious, how important is fluff to all you players and DMs out there? And by fluff, I mean things that are stated but have no mechanical detriment or benefit, they're just things assumed by a given book.
    Book/Official fluff? I don't care about it. If I DM, you're welcome to suggest any change to it. As a player, I don't like strict interpretation of the books.
    In fact, even for mechanics, assuming I know you well enough to be sure you won't try to exploit whatever mechanical change you're asking for fluff reasons, I will accept.

    Personal fluff? That's already much more strict. And you will need a very good explanation for me to change established fluff of the universe I build.

    To take the "druids with metal armors" thing as an example, in most universe I build, I simply don't care about druid. In fact, if no player plays a druid, chances that I will just erase druids from the universe. But if a player want to play a druid with metal armor, no problems.
    However, if I were to build a universe where the druidic circles are an important part of the lore, major NPCs are druids, and that there are actual reasons for which druids don't wear metal armors, then metal armors would be forbidden for player druids. Because the possibility of a druid wearing armor would have some significant impact on the universe.

    Similarly, chances are that I didn't make a lore for a good half of the races when building a universe. Even basic races like elves and dwarves might not have an expansive lore yet. So if you come with one of them and want do go against standard medieval fantasy lore, like with "tall dwarves" or something similar, I will happily integrate it into the fluff of the universe. (Probably asking you more information about what you think about the culture of your race should be).

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    So, at level 2. Normal point buy, no special rules, just a simple, clean game.

    Is 16 AC still too high? Is 15?
    17 AC is the expected AC of a dex warrior at level 2 with studded leather and shield. It's also the expected AC of a cleric in a chain shirt with 14 dex and shield.

    If druids are, as has been said, the best characters at level 2, surely something below that is reasonable, for balance reasons. So, 16 AC, or 17 if they make a significant investment in dex (which will go down in value as their levels go up and they have access to alternative material medium armor, so it's a reasonable trade-off). Anything above that is a no-no.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    The cost of heavy armor has be noted as being put of line for a long time. Not an issue with druid or medium armor. If anything they are probably double of what they should be.
    I figured that 75 gold has to cover, living expenses, any tools/ healing kits(druid start with herbalism kit proficiency but not the kit it self), consumables, transportation fees, and who knows what else.
    It doesn't have to cover living expenses, including food, unless you want a better than modest lifestyle. A herbalism kit costs 5 gold, druids can buy that with their starting gold from background. Druids have less use of healing kits than most classes due to their high wisdom.

    Transportation fees? Are you sending your 1st level characters on long sea voyages and having them pay for it, by any chance? Because they can get a place in a coach for a 100 miles with 3 gp, or in a ship for 10gp. In all my 30 years of playing D&D, I've never seen PCs paying transportation fees for anything at first level, any threat is either close enough to make it unnecessary, or their patron pays for their voyage in the rare case where the threat is too far, and the voyage itself is somehow bound up in the adventure.

    Tldr, buying scale mail (or studded leather) at level 2 is expected, not some sort of monty haul campaign.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-11-14 at 12:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee_Dragon View Post


    Here we see a true druid preparing the materials for a wooden splint mail.
    I'm starting to love you

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    17 AC is the expected AC of a dex warrior at level 2 with studded leather and shield. It's also the expected AC of a cleric in a chain shirt with 14 dex and shield.

    If druids are, as has been said, the best characters at level 2, surely something below that is reasonable, for balance reasons. So, 16 AC, or 17 if they make a significant investment in dex (which will go down in value as their levels go up and they have access to alternative material medium armor, so it's a reasonable trade-off). Anything above that is a no-no.



    It doesn't have to cover living expenses, including food, unless you want a better than modest lifestyle. A herbalism kit costs 5 gold, druids can buy that with their starting gold from background. Druids have less use of healing kits than most classes due to their high wisdom.

    Transportation fees? Are you sending your 1st level characters on long sea voyages and having them pay for it, by any chance? Because they can get a place in a coach for a 100 miles with 3 gp, or in a ship for 10gp. In all my 30 years of playing D&D, I've never seen PCs paying transportation fees for anything at first level, any threat is either close enough to make it unnecessary, or their patron pays for their voyage in the rare case where the threat is too far, and the voyage itself is somehow bound up in the adventure.

    Tldr, buying scale mail (or studded leather) at level 2 is expected, not some sort of monty haul campaign.
    But splint at lv 2 is obviously out of the question? Either gold matters/ a place to buy armor isn't available for the whole party or it's not. Trying to invent a bunch of hoops for druid to jump through over a single AC to try to rationalize a line of text is silly.
    Their AC equals a cleric with similar stat investment or the cleric can get more for less by having a domain with heavy armor and eating the stealth penalty.

    Druids fall in the same 16-18 AC range as all full casters who care to stay alive. Be it by armor or spells that is where they start and most stay where those who choose to can advance AC to the low 20s
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    But splint at lv 2 is obviously out of the question? Either gold matters/ a place to buy armor isn't available for the whole party or it's not. Trying to invent a bunch of hoops for druid to jump through over a single AC to try to rationalize a line of text is silly.
    Their AC equals a cleric with similar stat investment or the cleric can get more for less by having a domain with heavy armor and eating the stealth penalty.

    Druids fall in the same 16-18 AC range as all full casters who care to stay alive. Be it by armor or spells that is where they start and most stay where those who choose to can advance AC to the low 20s
    Splint costs 200 gp. To get it by level 4 you have to save 90% of the money you start with. Doable, sure but at a cost.

    Which full caster has AC 18 at 2nd level with no stealth penalty and just 14 dex?
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-11-14 at 01:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    Splint costs 200 gp. To get it by level 4 you have to save 90% of the money you start with. Doable, sure but at a cost.

    Which full caster has AC 18 at 2nd level with no stealth penalty and just 14 dex?
    The druid would have a stealth penalty the same time they had 18 AC but for argument sake.

    Tortle + any caster that can use a shield will have 19 AC. The horror.

    Wizard 1+ 1forge cleric or just forge cleric can get 19+.

    2 i can think of without much effort.
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2019-11-14 at 01:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    The druid would have a stealth penalty the same time they had 18 AC but for argument sake.

    Tortle + any caster that can use a shield will have 19 AC. The horror.

    Wizard 1+ 1forge cleric or just forge cleric can get 19+.

    2 i can think of without much effort.
    And yet rogue and monk sit around wishing they could get any of that normally...

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    And yet rogue and monk sit around wishing they could get any of that normally...
    Yea both of them suffer early game with low AC but get good mobility options at lv 2 so their survivability is still ok. Monks probably should start at 17-18 but hard to figure out how without a complete rewrite
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    The druid would have a stealth penalty the same time they had 18 AC but for argument sake.

    Tortle + any caster that can use a shield will have 19 AC. The horror.

    Wizard 1+ 1forge cleric or just forge cleric can get 19+.

    2 i can think of without much effort.
    The druid will not have a stealth penalty for most combats, as I have repeatedly explained why.

    So your argument is, even though Druids peak at level 2, we should still give ALL of them, regardless of circle or race, a considerable AC boost at that particular level, since they can still be bested by one race that is not even in a book, not accepted by many DMs (those who have heard of it, that is), and one cleric domain (that has access to heavy armor, so choosing to be medium armor based comes at a cost, and whose domain ability gets less powerful as the campaign progresses, which is another cost)

    Well, if that's how you feel, you might as well give free flight to druids, since aarakocra exist. I mean, you can always have even more boosts to druids at level 2-4, so why not.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-11-14 at 06:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    The druid will not have a stealth penalty for most combats, as I have repeatedly explained why.

    So your argument is, even though Druids peak at level 2, we should still give ALL of them, regardless of circle or race, a considerable AC boost at that particular level, since they can still be bested by one race that is not even in a book, not accepted by many DMs (those who have heard of it, that is), and one cleric domain (that has access to heavy armor, so choosing to be medium armor based comes at a cost, and whose domain ability gets less powerful as the campaign progresses, which is another cost)

    Well, if that's how you feel, you might as well give free flight to druids, since aarakocra exist. I mean, you can always have even more boosts to druids at level 2-4, so why not.
    Slippery slope huh? no you have not explained how the druid has both high AC and no stealth penalty simultaneously. They have one or the other. Unless we are discussing Schrodinger's druid who is using and not using wild shapes at one time.

    Side note nothing is forcing a forge cleric to pick one armor and stick with it. They can go medium for a while if stealth is a factor or heavy otherwise. I did what you asked and named a few cases of full casters with decent AC? Are you going to keep running the goalpost off the back side of the field?
    I think I proved beyond a reasonable doubt that druid in any medium armor are not breaking anything. assuming a reasonable item progression they are going to be about the same as any other moderately armored caster. Which is about half of them once we factor in Subclasses.
    Last edited by stoutstien; 2019-11-14 at 06:29 PM.

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Personally I think metal not working with wildshape would be fine. "Metal can't be reshaped by the forces of nature." If you want an armored caster to boost the weaker Druid archetypes it becomes available while not buffing Moon Druids.
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  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Slippery slope huh? no you have not explained how the druid has both high AC and no stealth penalty simultaneously. They have one or the other. Unless we are discussing Schrodinger's druid who is using and not using wild shapes at one time.

    Side note nothing is forcing a forge cleric to pick one armor and stick with it. They can go medium for a while if stealth is a factor or heavy otherwise. I did what you asked and named a few cases of full casters with decent AC? Are you going to keep running the goalpost off the back side of the field?
    I think I proved beyond a reasonable doubt that druid in any medium armor are not breaking anything. assuming a reasonable item progression
    With the exception of rogues (and goblins), who get hide as a bonus action, stealth penalty in combat is very much irrelevant. In your houserule, all Druids, regardless of subclass, get to have no stealth penalty while in exploration mode, and 18 AC once combat starts, at the cost of 14 Dex, which pretty much they all will have at least, since they don't have heavy armor proficiency, and one bonus action.

    So, it's not schrodinger's Druid, he just has no stealth penalty when it matters the most (during exploration) and 18 AC when it matters the most (during combat).

    Wizards don't have that. Bards don't have that. Sorcerers don't have that. Non-Forge Clerics don't have that. Warlocks don't have that. Sorcerers don't have that. Paladins, Fighters and Rangers don't have that (unless they are dex-based -or at least invested a 14 in dex- and invested in the Defense style). Monks and rogues don't have that. Barbarians can have that if they sacrifice Str to start with 16 Dex and Con, which is a substantial cost for a Barbarian.

    But you want Druids, the best class at level 2 according to you even without that advantage, to have it at the cost of one bonus action in the first round of combat (on a level where there are not that many uses for bonus actions), and you think that is balanced. We just have different ideas of what balance is. Mine at least is based in the rules of the PHB, while yours chooses to houserule it away.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-11-14 at 07:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    With the exception of rogues (and goblins), who get hide as a bonus action, stealth penalty in combat is very much irrelevant. In your houserule, all Druids, regardless of subclass, get to have no stealth penalty while in exploration mode, and 18 AC once combat starts, at the cost of 14 Dex, which pretty much they all will have at least, since they don't have heavy armor proficiency, and one bonus action.

    Wizards don't have that. Bards don't have that. Sorcerers don't have that. Non-Forge Clerics don't have that. Warlocks don't have that. Sorcerers don't have that. Paladins, Fighters and Rangers don't have that (unless they are dex-based and invested in the Defense style). Monks and rogues don't have that. Barbarians can have that if they sacrifice Str to start with 16 Dex and Con, which is a substantial cost for a Barbarian.

    But you want Druids, the best class at level 2 according to you even without that advantage, to have it at the cost of one bonus action in the first round of combat (on a level where there are not that many uses for bonus actions), and you think that is balanced. We just have different ideas of what balance is. Mine at least is based in the rules of the PHB, while yours chooses to houserule it away.

    Simple: I fixed wild shapes instead of trying to back door fix it through item restrictions. if you do the item restriction you're going to run into all kind of little issues. What if another character started with better medium armor made out of natural material and want to give it to the druid? does the materials suddenly morph to prevent this from happening?
    As I stated earlier there's no consensus of what armors are considered metal in regard to this restriction.

    If stealth is a priority to the party there so many different ways for them to get around the penalty. Druid wild shape is just probably one of the easiest but it has its flaws.


    the metal armor restriction can go sit with alignment in the pile of things that need to just @$!? Or get off the pot. restrictions without consequences are like the sign in the movie theater that tells you not to bring food in.
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    With the exception of rogues (and goblins), who get hide as a bonus action, stealth penalty in combat is very much irrelevant. In your houserule, all Druids, regardless of subclass, get to have no stealth penalty while in exploration mode, and 18 AC once combat starts, at the cost of 14 Dex, which pretty much they all will have at least, since they don't have heavy armor proficiency, and one bonus action.

    So, it's not schrodinger's Druid, he just has no stealth penalty when it matters the most (during exploration) and 18 AC when it matters the most (during combat).

    Wizards don't have that. Bards don't have that. Sorcerers don't have that. Non-Forge Clerics don't have that. Warlocks don't have that. Sorcerers don't have that. Paladins, Fighters and Rangers don't have that (unless they are dex-based -or at least invested a 14 in dex- and invested in the Defense style). Monks and rogues don't have that. Barbarians can have that if they sacrifice Str to start with 16 Dex and Con, which is a substantial cost for a Barbarian.

    But you want Druids, the best class at level 2 according to you even without that advantage, to have it at the cost of one bonus action in the first round of combat (on a level where there are not that many uses for bonus actions), and you think that is balanced. We just have different ideas of what balance is. Mine at least is based in the rules of the PHB, while yours chooses to houserule it away.
    So Wildshape is considered free? Moon Druids don't like to have Wildshape available in combat, other types of Druids never want to have a spare Wildshape on call to run away or hide if need be, that bonus action is never needed, and exploration happens in handy 1 or 2 hour increments with short rests in between?

    Moreover, let's assume Druid is not just good at level 2, they're at the top! Let's assume that. Is restricting their AC to 16 (Hide Armor or Studded Leather) going to stop them from championing? Or is it that, while a Druid gets a nice power boost at level 2 with their archetype (like Clerics do at level 1, Wizards do at level 2, Fighters do at level 3, etc.) they aren't some obscenely powerful boogeyman that must be stopped and changing their AC from 17 to 16 is the only way to do it?
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

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  30. - Top - End - #180
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    Default Re: Fluff vs. Mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post

    the metal armor restriction can go sit with alignment in the pile of things that need to just @$!? Or get off the pot. restrictions without consequences are like the sign in the movie theater that tells you not to bring food in.
    If that's how you feel, houserule it away. It's your game, D&D police is not going to your house to arrest you. Boost (or nerf) druids (or any other class) to your (and your players') heart's desire. What I find odd is the insistence that allowing Druids to wear metal armor is not a houserule.

    For me, druids are fine sitting around Dex 16 until around levels 6-8, where it's ok to give them a boost. It's just convenient (and probably not even intended by the designers) that the metal armor restriction rule in the PHB allows it to work like that just fine.
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2019-11-14 at 07:38 PM.

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