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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    I've been letting my players just pick their stats. Still has to be 3-18 before racials, and any array anyone makes is open to everyone to use.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Our group uses 4d6 drop the lowest, and assign those stats however you want. However, we also have a house rule where we roll two batches of stats, in pick which one we want to use. So we don't have massive stats, but we still have slightly above-average. (Typically, a player will have highest stat of 17 with this system, and a 15 or 16 as next highest)
    Last edited by Vessyra; 2019-11-13 at 02:25 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    For a commoners game I was going to use 18 point buy, changing the at-creation ability cap to 13 (before racial bonus)
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keeganwilson View Post
    Do you use the standard 4d6 drop the lowest or point buy? Do you have some sort of modified system of that? I'd love to hear all the methods the forumites use.
    Points buy, basically always as the GM.

    I don't see value in rolling for stats anymore, and I definitely don't subscribe to the idea that rolling is important for "playing with the hand that you're dealt" given that each new rolling scheme I've been introduced to seems engineered to produce increasingly higher and customized stats, and almost always guarantee a stat that's 16+. It's basically just picking your stats yourself.

    We'll stick to point buy, this way there's a structure and limit on self-selecting stats, and we're not beating around the bush about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I've been letting my players just pick their stats. Still has to be 3-18 before racials, and any array anyone makes is open to everyone to use.
    I've done this before too. This is how I figured out that rolling for stat's was just a show to posture and play let's pretend about not being power-gamey.

    The end result was that arrays, before racial modifiers, were along the lines of 16+, 15, 14, 12, 10, 8, which was striking because it looked basically very much like rolled arrays, especially rolled arrays rolled out of GM supervision. Beyond just being around 32 points buy rather than 27 points buy, the 16+ is the most important part, I surmised. Especially because, when we rolled for characters, especially when I wasn't watching, there was always at least a 16, 17, or they petitioned for a re-roll or adjustment.

    I came to the conclusion that I should just use points buy in the future and that rolling with all the schemes of re-rolls and drop-lowests and the likes was basically just a cover for shooting for better stats to be a more efficient build. Perhaps I should have come to the conclusion that my players think they'll have the most fun with a better stat array with a 16+ in it, and will pick an otherwise reasonable looking array.
    Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2019-11-13 at 03:38 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Last game I was given the choice between point buy and rolling and I ended up rolling since with PB there was no way to play the character. I wanted to play a Roguish Wizard, which required 1 good and 4 decent scores, but the pb simply wouldn't budge so I went with the hail mary and ended up rolling barely enough to play the character (although with a ton of uneven scores, but Variant Human and feats fix that up nicely). Normally I hate rolling since it gives me no control over whether I get to play what I want to play but the fact that you can roll but not buy 18 and that you can roll more good stats than you can reasonably buy sometimes makes me pick it as the lesser of two evils (when it happens to suit the character). Though when rolling, it's really hard to get a horrible stat either. I like one 4-7 range stat to really highlight a clear weakness but this time the worst I got was a 9 for instance. Indeed, I rolled 9/17/13/13/11/12, which is by all accounts an excellent roll and after V. Human and a feat we're looking at a more reasonable 9/18/14/14/11/12. Probably not worth the effort to buy the last points to even scores.

    This just highlights why I prefer high enough pb or potentially arrays (but arrays are not customizable, so I'd rather prefer a range of arrays to support MAD, SAD and DAD characters).
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2019-11-13 at 04:30 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    I don't see value in rolling for stats anymore, and I definitely don't subscribe to the idea that rolling is important for "playing with the hand that you're dealt" given that each new rolling scheme I've been introduced to seems engineered to produce increasingly higher and customized stats, and almost always guarantee a stat that's 16+. It's basically just picking your stats yourself.
    Completely agree.
    I noticed the same thing in almost every thread on this subject.
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    Sun Tzu never had tier problems. If he had to deal with D&D, the Art of War would read "Full casters or GTFO".
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Mostly point-buy for 5e. Sometimes rolls with point-buy as a safety net. Game I recently signed up for did a weird thing where it was 3d6 6 times, and then you can reroll 6 dice somewhere in those 18. Works out to very slightly better than 4d6b3, but not that much better.


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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Personally I'm a fan of point buy, but in my most recent campaign I let my players choose and they went for the 27-25-23 method.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Point buy, but if people really wanna roll, then everyone uses the same array / could use each other's rolls. I care far more about the players having stats relatively equal to each other rather than how powerful or weak their stat line is.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Having played 00D&D with rolled in order and 3D6 I love the flexibility of point buy. Not being a strong min-max player when character role play is a starting factor (always) I prefer the combination of flexibility and bell curve character creation.

    Example from 1973 - fighter where high stat was 12 and second highest was 10 lowest was a 3 and a 6.

    Edit: died around 4th level IIRC and not intentionally.
    Last edited by ZorroGames; 2019-11-13 at 01:42 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    Having played 00D&D with rolled in order and 3D6 I love the flexibility of point buy. Not being a strong min-max player when character role play is a starting factor (always) I prefer the combination of flexibility and bell curve character creation.
    Oh yeah, i started with this kind of character creation. Hated this.
    Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Sun Tzu never had tier problems. If he had to deal with D&D, the Art of War would read "Full casters or GTFO".
    Quote Originally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
    Common sense is for commoners, not for [ PC ].

  12. - Top - End - #42

    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    One interesting idea, which I will probably never use but potentially could if players were jealous of each other's stats, is to have everybody roll a 4d6k3 array, and then bid on who gets to use what arrays. The person who's willing to start their PC at 1st level gets first pick, then the guy who's willing to start at 2nd level gets the next pick, and so on. If there's a tie (everybody wants the same array) then the price goes up (more +levels, or +magic items at the DM's discretion) until only one guy is left.

    Would you rather be a 1st level guy with stat array 18 17 15 13 12 12, or an Nth level guy with stats 15 14 11 10 9 6? In the end nobody can complain because they all had the same chance, but you'll get to see who can do more with what they have.

    But I have yet to run a group where people care enough about each other's stats that this would be necessary.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    The table rolls 64 4d6k3 filling out an 8x8 grid in order.
    Players can then pick any line of 6, forwards or backwards, to use (in order) as their stats.

    Or just point buy.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    27 point buy. Keeps everyone at similar power levels.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Would you rather be a 1st level guy with stat array 18 17 15 13 12 12, or an Nth level guy with stats 15 14 11 10 9 6? In the end nobody can complain because they all had the same chance, but you'll get to see who can do more with what they have.
    I will choose the first one any day. Because i will reach 4th level before the guy who started at 4th reach the 5th.

    Yes, the survivability may be a problem, but if this is a party made of one 1st level, one 2nd level, one 3rd level and one 4th level PC, the DM is not going to put CR 4 enemies on every encounter.
    Last edited by Petrocorus; 2019-11-14 at 12:50 PM.
    Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Sun Tzu never had tier problems. If he had to deal with D&D, the Art of War would read "Full casters or GTFO".
    Quote Originally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
    Common sense is for commoners, not for [ PC ].

  16. - Top - End - #46

    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    I will choose the first one any day. Because i will reach 4th level before the guy who started at 4th reach the 5th.

    Yes, the survivability may be a problem, but if there is a party for one 1st level, one 2nd level, one 3rd level and one 4th level PC, the DM is not going to put CR 4 enemies on every encounter.
    You're assuming N = 4, but I bet there would be someone in your group who would make the opposite choice, so you'd both have reason to be happy with what you got. (In fact I've seen players willing to rolling 3d6-in-order in order to start at 5th level.) Otherwise, keep raising N (or adding magic items) until everyone but one person drops out.

    Would you still pick the first-level guy if N = 9? How about 15? 20? (I'd be very, very surprised if it ever got to 20.)

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    You're assuming N = 4, but I bet there would be someone in your group who would make the opposite choice, so you'd both have reason to be happy with what you got. (In fact I've seen players willing to rolling 3d6-in-order in order to start at 5th level.) Otherwise, keep raising N (or adding magic items) until everyone but one person drops out.

    Would you still pick the first-level guy if N = 9? How about 15? 20? (I'd be very, very surprised if it ever got to 20.)
    I'm assuming the campaign is designed for a certain tier, and if N goes beyond this, the campaign would be trivialised. So i'm assuming the DM has set a maximum N for the prepared campaign. And probably a minimum.

    The XP per level is a bit wonky in this edition (i always wondered why), but the cost to go from N to N+1 still tend to be higher than the cost to go from N-4 to N-2 or even N-1. The exact numbers are less and less true as the level goes higher, but the principle remains true.
    Que tous les anciens dieux et les nouveaux protègent la France.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Sun Tzu never had tier problems. If he had to deal with D&D, the Art of War would read "Full casters or GTFO".
    Quote Originally Posted by King Louis XIII in The Musketeers
    Common sense is for commoners, not for [ PC ].

  18. - Top - End - #48

    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    I'm assuming the campaign is designed for a certain tier, and if N goes beyond this, the campaign would be trivialised. So i'm assuming the DM has set a maximum N for the prepared campaign. And probably a minimum.
    Nope, not really. I don't typically design campaigns as adventure paths with a fixed plot, just (dynamic) sandboxes and modular adventures, and if the players go for the adventures it's up to the players to pick which adventure hooks they pursue (and I'll give them information in advance such as "Bucky Dangerstar is an urban mystery with some combat. Low treasure, high XP, difficulty 7/20", or "The Mines of Moria are a dungeon crawl, high treasure, high XP, difficulty 1/20 up to 11/20 depending on how deep you go"). A campaign is a series of adventures all featuring the same characters, or else it's just the adventurers pursuing their own goals in the sandbox independently of DM-presented adventures, e.g. trying to avoid becoming a casualty of the Blood War which has spilled over into the Prime Material Plane, while researching cool necromancy spells and becoming more powerful.

    Anyway, I have plenty of experience running level 3 PCs and level 13 PCs in the same party at the same time. As you say, the low-level guys tend to level up pretty fast anyway.

    If there were two players who were both absolutely determined to have a certain set of stats, I'd probably offer a bid progression something like:

    Level 2
    Level 3
    Level 4
    Level 5
    Level 6
    Level 4 with a Horn of Valhalla (yes, I know it's very powerful)
    Level 7
    Level 8
    Level 6 with a Greatsword +1
    Level 6 with a Horn of Valhalla

    and after that point I'd start soliciting ideas from players for other bids, treating it something like Poker I guess. At some point someone is going to accept an offer that the other guy won't accept. I'd steal from the cake-cutting problem solution and say that if you make a suggestion ("how about 9th level and a Vorpal Sword?") the other guy gets first pick, and you only get it if he still wants the level 1 dude with high stats.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    I've experimented with a lot of rolling methods over the years. My current favorite is to have players follow the default point buy for whatever edition we're playing, and then roll 4d6k3 against each ability in order.

    But what I really want is a semi-randomized system that takes class and race into account, like the ones in Alternity's Gamemaster Guide. Definitely turning the wheels on that one.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    I'm a fan of 2d6+6

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    I've always used the Standard Array for building my characters. Allows for decent power, generally a feat, maybe two, gives me definitive low points and high points. Can it be problematic when I'm going with an unoptimized race/class combo? Sure, but I still get where I want in the end.
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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Everyone starts with a 15, a 14, and a 13 that they can put in any attributes they want. Once those are picked, they roll 3d6 (anything < 8 becomes 8) and put those in any of the remaining three attributes, however they please.

    It's a good blend of "you're guaranteed a usable primary and secondary stat" and "you can get non-stereotypical Strong Wizards or Smart Barbarians and character stats don't all look the same across classes."

  23. - Top - End - #53

    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    Everyone starts with a 15, a 14, and a 13 that they can put in any attributes they want. Once those are picked, they roll 3d6 (anything < 8 becomes 8) and put those in any of the remaining three attributes, however they please.

    It's a good blend of "you're guaranteed a usable primary and secondary stat" and "you can get non-stereotypical Strong Wizards or Smart Barbarians and character stats don't all look the same across classes."
    That seems fairly gameable. Let's see: if I do Wis 13, Con 15, Dex 14, then roll... [rolls] 10, 18, 10 (really!), I can now plug that high stat into whatever I feel like (Int for wizards, Cha for sorlocks/etc.) and I can still take a cleric dip for heavy armor if I want to. I can't be a Dex 20 Con 16 Shadar Kai Sharpshooter because I already committed to Dex 14, but I could be a Paladorc. If I had instead rolled [rolls] 14, 17, 9, that's too similar to the previous so I'll try again looking for lower rolls... [rolls] 9, 13, 3 I can still be something reasonably fun like an Int 14 Enchanter X/Forge Cleric 1 with the Mobile feat to offset my weak Str 9 (then Cha 3), or I could lean on my Dex 14 and go Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert after all and just use ASIs to boost my Dex.

    Seems like a reasonable method, but I would not put any of those fixed stats in my intended primary stat. Fixed stats would go to stables that almost every character wants high no matter what.

    Wis 13, Con 14, Dex 15 + [rolls] 12, 6, 4, let's make that a human Sharpshooter Fighter (EK) with Str 4 Dex 16 (15) Con 14 Int 6 Wis 13 (12) Cha 4, and I'll plan on multiclassing him to Shepherd Druid to wind up an EK 5/Shepherd Druid 6 at 11th level.

    Yep, this method is a lot more satisfying than point buy, although I still prefer 4d6k3 or 3d6-in-order. But not bad!
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-11-14 at 09:56 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Yeah, it definitely makes a difference if you generally know what you want to play in terms of class/race before you roll (as my players usually do) or if you go into it in traditional attribute->class->race order. My favorite result of this system so far is my guy who was Going To Play A Wizard, gambled on getting a roll higher than 15, and ended up with nothing better than 11. So he played an 11 Int 15 Dex wizard. He did a lot of buffing and summoning and used a magic dagger as his combat filler instead of casting damaging cantrips. Would have been much less memorable if he decided to switch to rogue, like a sensible person.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Our table uses the Standard Array.
    If you are trying to abuse the game; Don't. And you're probably wrong anyway.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    All my characters were rolled 4d6s

    When I dm, I give the standard array. If they're new players, i change the 15 to a 16

  27. - Top - End - #57

    Default Re: How do y'all get your stats ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindeloke View Post
    Yeah, it definitely makes a difference if you generally know what you want to play in terms of class/race before you roll (as my players usually do) or if you go into it in traditional attribute->class->race order. My favorite result of this system so far is my guy who was Going To Play A Wizard, gambled on getting a roll higher than 15, and ended up with nothing better than 11. So he played an 11 Int 15 Dex wizard. He did a lot of buffing and summoning and used a magic dagger as his combat filler instead of casting damaging cantrips. Would have been much less memorable if he decided to switch to rogue, like a sensible person.
    One of my players played a Cha 9 Hobgoblin Sorcerer for a while. I felt bad for him because I think he genuinely didn't realize what he was getting into, since he wanted to be a blaster but his accuracy was low. He lasted a couple of levels and then I can't remember if the character retired officially or just spent the rest of the campaign offscreen (I use Darksun-style character trees).

    I'm glad your player had better luck. I'm sure it helps that wizards have a better spell list, but it takes some skill to do what he did. Hats off to him!

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