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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    So tell me why WOTC in the PHB thinks a high CH is important enough to be your second highest stat after IN and before DE and CO.

    Never played an enchanter so I am confused. Are not the spells driven by you IN stat?
    With one exception, I play AL games only nowdays.

    I am the eternal Iconoclast.

    Mountain Dwarfs Rock!

    Song of Gorm Gulthyn
    Blessed be the HAMMER my strength which teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.

    Otto von Bismarck Quotes

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    Because of the second bullet point of the Charmed condition.

    Charmed
    • A charmed creature can’t attack the charmer or target the charmer with harmful abilities or magical effects.
    • The charmer has advantage on any ability check to interact socially with the creature.


    If you're planning on making social checks at advantage a lot, they'll be more likely to succeed if you have a good Charisma. And can better top results, since advantage doesn't add to the maximum result possible on a check.

  3. - Top - End - #3

    Default Re: So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    So tell me why WOTC in the PHB thinks a high CH is important enough to be your second highest stat after IN and before DE and CO.

    Never played an enchanter so I am confused. Are not the spells driven by you IN stat?
    Well, they don't really. The PHB guidance is bad advice. It wouldn't be a terrible idea to invest in Persuasion or even Prodigy (Persuasion) if you're planning on playing a trickster, but investing in Charisma pays very little return for the cost.

    I wish someone had given me the advice to invest in AC (heavy armor and shield proficiency) instead of Cha, when I first played an Enchanter. I would have gotten way more mileage out of my Enchanter features.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    So tell me why WOTC in the PHB thinks a high CH is important enough to be your second highest stat after IN and before DE and CO.

    Never played an enchanter so I am confused. Are not the spells driven by you IN stat?
    If you really want to be a charming enchanter, it'll probably work better on a Bard chassis.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Lombard-O View Post
    If you really want to be a charming enchanter, it'll probably work better on a Bard chassis.
    No, just realized from Treantmonk video on the subclass that there was no mechanical advantage on the CH and very little class benefit unless you count skills. Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation, etc., type uses.

    Edit: In theory you could be an Enchanter Wizard with a Ch of ten, or even eight, I guess. Have not checked that out but it just struck me that might be weirdly possible.
    Last edited by ZorroGames; 2019-11-14 at 10:18 AM.
    With one exception, I play AL games only nowdays.

    I am the eternal Iconoclast.

    Mountain Dwarfs Rock!

    Song of Gorm Gulthyn
    Blessed be the HAMMER my strength which teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.

    Otto von Bismarck Quotes

    When you want to fool the world, tell the truth.

  6. - Top - End - #6

    Default Re: So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    No, just realized from Treantmonk video on the subclass that there was no mechanical advantage on the CH and very little class benefit unless you count skills. Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation, etc., type uses.

    Edit: In theory you could be an Enchanter Wizard with a Ch of ten, or even eight, I guess. Have not checked that out but it just struck me that might be weirdly possible.
    It's not even that weird, thematically speaking. You're an unpleasant personality whom people tend to dislike, so you've turned to magic to make people do what you want.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    It's not even that weird, thematically speaking. You're an unpleasant personality whom people tend to dislike, so you've turned to magic to make people do what you want.
    Yeah, Lawful/Evil, the weak shall serve the strong.
    With one exception, I play AL games only nowdays.

    I am the eternal Iconoclast.

    Mountain Dwarfs Rock!

    Song of Gorm Gulthyn
    Blessed be the HAMMER my strength which teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.

    Otto von Bismarck Quotes

    When you want to fool the world, tell the truth.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Composer99's Avatar

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    Default Re: So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZorroGames View Post
    So tell me why WOTC in the PHB thinks a high CH is important enough to be your second highest stat after IN and before DE and CO.

    Never played an enchanter so I am confused. Are not the spells driven by you IN stat?
    Because the game designers don't assume you're making decisions with a view to character optimisation of the sort routinely discussed on these boards, and also because, unlike other schools, enchantment has a feature that uses your Charisma. (With character optimisation in mind, it's the 14th-level feature, so not one that's liable to see much play, and it has a rather niche effect - altering memories the victims of your enchantment spells have while under the effect of your spells - so again, not liable to see much play.)
    ~ Composer99

    D&D 5e Campaign:
    Adventures in Eaphandra

    D&D 5e Homebrew:
    This can be found in my extended homebrew signature!

  9. - Top - End - #9

    Default Re: So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Composer99 View Post
    Because the game designers don't assume you're making decisions with a view to character optimisation of the sort routinely discussed on these boards, and also because, unlike other schools, enchantment has a feature that uses your Charisma. (With character optimisation in mind, it's the 14th-level feature, so not one that's liable to see much play, and it has a rather niche effect - altering memories the victims of your enchantment spells have while under the effect of your spells - so again, not liable to see much play.)
    You're not wrong, but...

    At 14th level, you gain the ability to make a creature unaware of your magical influence on it. When you cast an enchantment spell to charm one or more creatures, you can alter one creature's understanding so that it remains unaware of being charmed.

    Additionally, once before the spell expires, you can use your action to try to make the chosen creature forget some of the time it spent charmed. The creature must succeed on an Intelligence saving throw against your wizard spell save DC or lose a number of hours of its memories equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier (minimum 1). You can make the creature forget less time, and the amount of time can't exceed the duration of your enchantment spell.


    The ONLY effect high Charisma has on this feature is that when you cast a very-long duration charm spell (Geas, Mass Suggestion), one that lasts multiple hours, you can double, triple, or more the number of hours of time the creature forgets. But even with Charisma 3 you still get to make them forget a full hour (if the spell even lasts that long), and how likely is it that 60 minutes of amnesia is not enough for your evil schemes to work but 180 minutes is? Even with Charisma 3 you can still Dominate Monster somebody, make them do whatever you want, and then make them forget you ever did it.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-11-14 at 03:58 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Composer99's Avatar

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    Default Re: So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    [Stuff about Altered Memories]
    Oh, I quite agree, which is why I was critical of Altered Memories - or, I suppose, thought I was sufficiently critical of it. But yes, I was remiss in not mentioning how the "minimum 1 hour" clause lets an enchanter dump Charisma if that's what they want.
    ~ Composer99

    D&D 5e Campaign:
    Adventures in Eaphandra

    D&D 5e Homebrew:
    This can be found in my extended homebrew signature!

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: So why do enchanter wizards need high charisma?

    Quote Originally Posted by Composer99 View Post
    Oh, I quite agree, which is why I was critical of Altered Memories - or, I suppose, thought I was sufficiently critical of it. But yes, I was remiss in not mentioning how the "minimum 1 hour" clause lets an enchanter dump Charisma if that's what they want.
    Which from a RP view might be a really great kick! (Repack the 3 with an 8 for AL)
    With one exception, I play AL games only nowdays.

    I am the eternal Iconoclast.

    Mountain Dwarfs Rock!

    Song of Gorm Gulthyn
    Blessed be the HAMMER my strength which teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.

    Otto von Bismarck Quotes

    When you want to fool the world, tell the truth.

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