Verb-Noun Improv Magic for Sorcerers?

[jjordan]

Self-scrubbing for reasons.

[JNAProductions]

Could be interesting, but you’re light on details on how to implement it.

Good luck with this project!

[Morphic tide]

Perhaps narrow the verbs to be more particular spell kinds, rather than having very broad stuff like "Create", or have a tradeoff between the broad stuff and the narrow stuff. So while Create might cover single-target, raw radius and rudimentary minions, it's worse at this than the more specialized versions, with the direct metamagic options having a lot to do with durations that have the more-open stuff being freestyled throughout the duration, but have lower per-round output, while the higher-power, more-specific uses tend to stick to a single kind of effect so you're more adjusting how you're doing that thing than changing what you're doing.

[theVoidWatches]

It's a cool idea, but implementation seems tricky. Particularly implementing it in a way that's balanced against other casters.

[Paleomancer]

I recommend looking at how 3.5e Warlocks combine Eldritch essence and eldritch shape invocations, modifying or adding damage, shape, range, saving throw DC, and other variables of the default eldritch blast effect. Also consider looking at the root words from 3.5e's epic magic rules, for possible inspirations for any words of power, as well as another system for combining words (albeit one dependent on skill checks). 5e's spell power based on spell slot level is also a good source of info. 3.5e psionic power points might also be useful guides for augmented the power of words.

Things to consider:
- limit the number of words known.
- limit words to providing specific effects and require higher spell slots/more power points to use more potent effects - The Cone word of power works like Burning hands with a 1st level slot, like cone of cold with a 5th level slot, etc. Utility spells will be harder, but not impossible. The key issue is that such a system risks rendering all other caster classes inferior, so play with it to see where it needs culling. What specifically do you see the role of sorcerers from a mechanical, thematic, and party role? Blasters, tricksters, or what else?

[BerzerkerUnit]

Published this for a base class contest on this very forum. I think I took 2nd or 3rd place.

On my phone so can’t provide a proper link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CwL...w?usp=drivesdk

[LibraryOgre]

I'd go with proficiency... and relatively few of them.

So, you start with, say, proficiency in two Nouns and one Verb... you can USE others, but you're only proficient in those. Say, you pick up another Verb at level 7 and 14, and nouns at 5, 10, 15, and 20.

Casting a spell is two rolls against the DC, determined by the level... one for the Verb, one for the Noun. Make both, you get to cast at max level (like a warlock). Make one, you cast at minimum level. As a sorcerer, you can use sorcery points to increase one or both rolls... say, a +2 per point.

So, let's ballpark some numbers.

0th 13
1st 15
2nd 17
3rd 19
4th 21
5th 23
6th 25
7th 27
8th 29
9th 31

With a maximum of +5 Charisma and +6 Proficiency bonus, you can manage a 9th level spell 5% of the time without sorcery points.

Fiddle with this later. Numbers seem a bit high, so needs work.

[Tvtyrant]

Have you looked at Words of Power from Pathfinder? It does a lot of what you are talking about (and is my favorite subsystem by far.)

[Kael_Thor]

I am a fan of the idea of Verb-Noun sorcerers, putting together spells on the fly, but unfortunately I'm not versed enough in 5e to help with balancing and such.

I can however hopefully help with inspiration.

Ars Magica has already been mentioned, so I'm going to mention Mage the Awakening, specifically the second edition version.

Simplified explanation of how magic in Mage works: there are several Arcanum, these are basically schools and denote what your magic is about. If you use the Death arcanum, you deal with death, ghosts, corpses etc. If you use the Life arcanum you deal with healing, body modification, controlling beasts etc. A mage 'buys' access to an arcanum through experience points. Theoretically a mage can have access to all of the arcanum, or just one, though realistically it will be somewhere in between.

Next to arcanum I'll mention practices. This is effectively the verbs of the magic, i.e what you do. They start at weak effects such as compelling, minor alterations within the arcanum's purview(influencing a coin flip with Fate for example), knowing, which gives you knowledge about something within the purview of the arcanum used(you could learn how a corpse died with a knowing death spell for instance), and goes up to making and unmaking things at the very top level.

What's really interesting with the magic system in Mage is that the player can, and is encouraged, to make their own spells, often on the fly. The book calls this Creative Thaumaturgy, and while this has been streamlined quite a bit in 2ed, its still a bit complicated to get in to but with practice it gets easier and quicker.

After practices I'll mention Reach. Reach is a bit like metamagic, in that a Mage can use Reach to modify their spells on the fly. Reach effects can be shortening the cast time, increasing the potency of the spell, increasing the duration of the spell, changing the range of the spell, changing the area of the spell and so on. What I really like about Reach is that it is through Reach that a Mage's spells can go horribly wrong. If a Mage Reaches too far, they can have their magic go wrong, called a Paradox. Paradox can be everything from the spell fails, to the Mage getting a literal black mark on their aura, to the Mage summoning an entity from outside this world. Now, Mage is a horror game, so paradox serves an important function to keep things dangerous for the Mage, but with a system where you make your own spells on the fly, having a chance for the spell to go more wrong than just failing and not being cast is quite interesting. And since Reach is the primary way to cause a paradox, it is usually the Mage's own fault when they cause one.

All of that said, I encourage you to look into Mage and its magic, if only for inspiration for your system. The various arcanum can be made into spell schools, the practices can be made into verbs, and the reach effects can be made into metamagic options.

One advice I want to give before I go to bed is try to streamline as much as possible. One of the most common complaints with making spells in Mage is that it takes a long time and is very complicated. Waiting for half an hour while the sorcerer makes a spell isn't very fun after all.

Hope this was somewhat helpful^^

[Elves]

In a D&D game, I would think of this in terms of modifying effects rather than generating them. (The Create keyword could simply be how you produce a predefined spell effect. Then eg, move-fire to move a wall of fire 30 feet or whatever.)

[aimlessPolymath]

In terms of describing nouns, I'd point out that the fundamental rules for different things tend to be fundamentally different; creatures have saves while objects don't, for example. Having a single verb that describes both cases seems like it'd be a bit messy- and if you want less concrete nouns like "fire" that don't even have hit points or well-defined single locations, it gets more tricky.

I do like your collection of Scale-related effects; it seems as though you could come up with a table by which each factor is given a numerical value, e.g. 30 ft is Range 2, and then the total sum of the factors attached to any one spell must be under a total determined by the level of the spell.