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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack8044 View Post
    I too worry about a level 2 Sorcerer potentially having 3 extra spell slots, but we have to have a carrot in place so that the player wont focus on one stat.
    There are two meta-magic that use charisma modifier to determine their effects (careful and empowered spell meta-magic). Which adds a little incentive to boost charisma.

    Anyone claiming that Constitution isn't a casting ability should be reminded that Dragonborn and Genasi cast their racial magic with Constitution. Realizing that an Air Genasi was a poor pick for Storm Sorcerer when using Point-Buy is what inspired my idea.
    This is true too. You also donít need a significant caster stat to learn magic initiate feat as well.
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2019-11-14 at 03:44 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    I absolutely love this idea. The concept that a sorcerer needs to maintain control over their own body (i.e. higher constitution score) is awesome. And as you mentioned, it opens the magic user role to more races without making a "sub-par" caster. I wish this were implemented in print, maybe in 6e whenever we get that. For now, though, I'll be bugging my DM to see if we can try this change out and work with him to see if we can add more concentration spells to the sorcerer list.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Dessunri View Post
    And as you mentioned, it opens the magic user role to more races without making a "sub-par" caster.
    Except it also makes those that make the most thematic sense (Aasamir, Tieflings, etc) sub-par, since spellcasting stat is so important.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Except it also makes those that make the most thematic sense (Aasamir, Tieflings, etc) sub-par, since spellcasting stat is so important.
    Warlock class is more thematic appropriate for the Tiefling.
    Paladin class is more thematic appropriate for the Aasamir.

    However this is a role playing game and thematic appropriateness is based on personal taste and campaign setting.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    NinjaGirl

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Charisma is the constitution of mental stats. If you're converting sorcerers to con, you're making their magic purely based on their physical bodies rather than their minds. Personally, I prefer the idea that your magic is governed by what your mind can stand rather than what your body can stand, but I can see where you might prefer otherwise. In a similar way you might consider a dex based bard that uses dance instead of music.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    If this entails tweaking Dragonborn so they suck less and have Con as a bonus stat option, you can sign me up. Otherwise, hard pass.
    Last edited by ezekielraiden; 2019-11-14 at 06:28 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    In my past 5e playing and DMing I have the only Sorcerer-Warlock I have seen in any game. Most players locally hard pass on multi-classing. The DMs do not have to restrict it in any form.

    And while it is not a frequent PC it also is neither OP or useless, just so so.

    Just my experience.
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  8. - Top - End - #38
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunru View Post
    Except it also makes those that make the most thematic sense (Aasamir, Tieflings, etc) sub-par, since spellcasting stat is so important.
    Charisma is still important, both of those races will have more SP to convert into spell slots on top of their Racial spells. Obviously the Aasimar is very flavorful as a Divine Soul but is there really a subclass that fits well with Tieflings? The Shadow Sorcerer maybe, but that has little to do with Devils or Demons.

    Both races make better Warlocks, an Aasimar already has an angelic guide that could easily be made a Patron, and the Tiefling's family has presumably already made a deal with a devil in the past.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    I really like this idea. Nothing else to add.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    I like the idea, but Dragonborn do need to make good Sorcerers. The Draconic Sorcerer was clearly designed with Dragonborn in mind.

    Now, Dragonborn as a race needs a lot of help, so maybe one way to offer that is to let them pick +2 Str/Con/Cha and +1 Str/Con/Cha and call it a day. (Requiring the choices to be exclusive of course: No choosing +2 Str and then +1 Str.)

    Then it fits with this idea and gives the race far more flexibility. Their other features aren't great, but that's not a huge deal anyway.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Evaar View Post
    I like the idea, but Dragonborn do need to make good Sorcerers. The Draconic Sorcerer was clearly designed with Dragonborn in mind.

    Now, Dragonborn as a race needs a lot of help, so maybe one way to offer that is to let them pick +2 Str/Con/Cha and +1 Str/Con/Cha and call it a day. (Requiring the choices to be exclusive of course: No choosing +2 Str and then +1 Str.)

    Then it fits with this idea and gives the race far more flexibility. Their other features aren't great, but that's not a huge deal anyway.
    A +1 to charisma hardly makes them a ďgoodĒ sorcerer now.
    And this thread isnít about making certain races better at being a sorcerer. Itís about making the sorcerer a more unique class.

    The Dragonbornís +1 to charisma will still help them get more sorcery points and more meta-magic choices.
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2019-11-15 at 07:19 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    I would also say that according forgotten realms lore, Dragonborn hate dragons. That said, I don't really use FR lore.

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    I would be completely behind this as just a straight switch from charisma to constitution.

    Anything to stop the constant warlock dip.
    Just switch warlocks from Cha to Int. Warlocks are all about forbidden knowledge, so Int is thematic. Cha is a weird attribute dependency for warlocks.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2019-11-15 at 07:57 PM.

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Sorcerers: Mistrusted and feared users of wild magic. They cast spells with the power of their popularity.

    This has always been an issue for me. Constitution makes sense, from a thematic standpoint. Sorcerers are feared. They have to endure through quite a lot to survive long enough to control their powers.

    Plus switching to Con means fewer Sorcadins, and it conversely makes the class a better dip for martial characters, giving them a unique edge.

    I'm always extremely dubious whenever HP and Magic are the same stat, but within bounded accuracy, and specifically within the confines of 5e and Charisma keying to everything, I'd be OK to test the change.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskeyjack8044 View Post
    I would also say that according forgotten realms lore, Dragonborn hate dragons. That said, I don't really use FR lore.
    Hating something you are biologically, culturally, linguistically, historically, and/or economically connected to is pretty frickin' common IRL, so I don't see why it would be such a problem here. Dragonborn speak the language of dragons (they get draconic for free), must pick a dragon type for an ancestor, and in FR lore specifically they come from cultures controlled by dragons on that world (even if that wasn't something they liked). Plus, FR has Bahamut and Tiamat vying for their worship. So....yeah, I completely agree that they hate dragons. It's also mechanically and narratively explicit that they're connected to dragons biologically, which is the explanation for (one form of) sorcery.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Sorcerers: Mistrusted and feared users of wild magic. They cast spells with the power of their popularity.
    "Charisma" isn't "popularity" any more than it is attractiveness (though some characters may express their Charisma in part through these things). People can be fairly popular and also very uncharismatic; they're easily pushed around but genial, or don't communicate very well but always have your back, or easily put their feet into their mouths in endearing ways. A fictional example of going from unpopular to (relatively) popular without being even slightly charismatic is Worf's son Alexander attempting to "make it" in the Klingon military. He's a doofus, doesn't get a lot of Klingon culture, and really is a little "soft" from having grown up accustomed to Federation creature comforts, which his shipmates are quite used to doing without. However, he eventually finds a role on the ship, as "the fool," and people start to like him--not because they respect him per se, nor because he really has any influence over them or all that much "force of personality," but because he's endearing to them, and they see him as a good-luck-charm. He repeatedly makes foolish mistakes that would destroy a seasoned warrior's career, but for a fool, such mistakes are acceptable (though they won't earn respect, they won't lose any either).

    I'm always extremely dubious whenever HP and Magic are the same stat, but within bounded accuracy, and specifically within the confines of 5e and Charisma keying to everything, I'd be OK to test the change.
    I share these concerns, but I don't think bounded accuracy actually addresses this. Remember that it's not just HP and magic, it's also Con saves...which means maintaining Concentration. Between already having proficiency in Con saves, and now making 20 Con by far the most desirable stat for Sorcerers, things may get a little wonky.

    Of course, I am also 100% fine with Sorcerers being Charisma-based, because D&D has never cleanly defined what "willpower" cashes out as stat-wise, and it seems blatantly obvious to me that while the source of the magic is biological, the use of it is through the will. Wizards are reality-hackers, like Super Mario World speedrunners doing an incredibly bizarre sequence of precise actions in order to insert new executable code into "system-locked" memory; less "commanding" reality and more "reprogramming" it, because they've mastered enough of the universe's "source code" that they can do that overwriting process without it either failing or "crashing the program." Meanwhile, Sorcerers, like Warlocks, genuinely command reality to be a certain way, and it relents because they have been granted that power (whether by blood or by contract)--think of it as the difference between the aforementioned code-injection trickery and having superuser command prompt access. Sorcery, to my eye, works like how channeling saidin is described in the Wheel of Time: "seizing" it, having to fight against a never-ending, raging, violent torrent of raw power, having to bend it to your will at every moment. Nynaeve, when initially leading the circle to cleanse the taint on saidin, is shocked, perhaps even terrified, by the "chaos and rage" that fills it, and struggles to believe that anyone could ever control it.

    That's what I imagine being a Sorcerer is like. And it's why I LOVED the early-playtest Sorcerer, where you were literally a being with two souls, your mortal soul and your magic soul, and tapping your power meant letting your other soul gain a greater foothold...always running the risk of letting the other soul take over completely, consuming your mortal soul, leaving nothing of "you" except the twisted monster-abomination running around in "your" body.

    Wizards inject code into the universe, and out pops their desired effect. Sorcerers metaphorically bully the universe into doing what they want. Warlocks swagger around with a metaphorical "badge" that, similarly, intimidates the universe into doing what they want. Bards, ironically, are more similar to Wizards than either of the other two, but because musical performance is a Charisma-related task, they're Charisma casters.
    Last edited by ezekielraiden; 2019-11-15 at 09:32 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    OP here, I want to make it clear that I think a Charisma based Sorcerer makes total thematic sense. I just think that Constitution makes MORE sense and it makes the class stand out in a role dominated by Charisma casters. I love Sorcerers.

    If I may offer a bit of insight, I let my players use any mental stat for any caster. So I've had an INT Warlock and a WIS wizard. The compromise is that they can't multi-class if they do this. Its perfectly balanced.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    I share these concerns, but I don't think bounded accuracy actually addresses this. Remember that it's not just HP and magic, it's also Con saves...which means maintaining Concentration. Between already having proficiency in Con saves, and now making 20 Con by far the most desirable stat for Sorcerers, things may get a little wonky
    I would like to point out that the rogue class can devote all their resources into dexterity. Dexterity controls initiative, light and medium armor, dexterity saving throws, Finesse weapons, ranged weapons, stealth check, thieves tools, sleight of hand, and a few others I maybe missing.
    I think we can allow a little bit of leeway for sorcerers to use constitution as their spellcasting ability.
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2019-11-15 at 11:05 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    I would like to point out that the rogue class can devote all their resources into dexterity. Dexterity controls initiative, light and medium armor, dexterity saving throws, Finesse weapons, ranged weapons, stealth check, thieves tools, sleight of hand, and a few others I maybe missing.
    I think we can allow a little bit of leeway for sorcerers to use constitution as their spellcasting ability.
    It's true that Rogues are probably the closest to a purely SAD class in 5e, and yes, the Sorcerer would thus come to resemble them if they were made so Con-dependent. I don't see either of these things as a positive and would in fact prefer to make the Rogue less purely-Dex-focused rather than use it as a justification for making other classes more SAD.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    It's true that Rogues are probably the closest to a purely SAD class in 5e, and yes, the Sorcerer would thus come to resemble them if they were made so Con-dependent. I don't see either of these things as a positive and would in fact prefer to make the Rogue less purely-Dex-focused rather than use it as a justification for making other classes more SAD.
    Actually with the OPís suggested changes the sorcerer will still need charisma as well. So not as SAD. Kind of like the paladin can just focus on strength(or dexterity) and charisma.
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2019-11-16 at 12:43 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by ezekielraiden View Post
    It's true that Rogues are probably the closest to a purely SAD class in 5e, and yes, the Sorcerer would thus come to resemble them if they were made so Con-dependent. I don't see either of these things as a positive and would in fact prefer to make the Rogue less purely-Dex-focused rather than use it as a justification for making other classes more SAD.
    Wow. Really? Yeah, I guess Rogues can get by with solely Dex, but it'd still be a pretty rough ride. Druids on the other hand...
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Con is the one stat that ties all the classes together

    Every class needs this stat because its tied to Hit Points

    So players have to choose between ASI for main stats, tertiary stats, feats, and more Hit Points

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    Con is the one stat that ties all the classes together

    Every class needs this stat because its tied to Hit Points

    So players have to choose between ASI for main stats, tertiary stats, feats, and more Hit Points
    Hit point arenít everything. Many classes can get by rather well with a low con score.
    Barbarian have a d12 hit die and a way to resist damage.
    Fighters have a d10 hit die, can wear heavy armor, shields, and have a way to restore hit points to themselves.
    Paladins have a d10 hit die, can wear heavy armor, shields, and have a way to restore hit points.
    Druids... yay their op
    And so on.

    Dexterity is needed by everyone unless you wear heavy armor.
    Wisdom is needed by everyone because nobody likes being surprised.
    It is all in the way you look at it.
    Last edited by Garfunion; 2019-11-16 at 12:34 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfunion View Post
    Hit point arenít everything. Many classes can get by rather well with a low con score.
    Barbarian have a d12 hit die and a way to resist damage.
    Fighters have a d10 hit die, can wear heavy armor, shields, and have a way to restore hit points to themselves.
    Paladins have a d10 hit die, can wear heavy armor, shields, and have a way to restore hit points.
    Druids... yay their op
    And so on.

    Dexterity is needed by everyone unless you wear heavy armor.
    Wisdom is needed by everyone because nobody likes being surprised.
    It is all in the way you look at it.
    But con is humbly, IMO, the stat we all use. And to have it as a main stat, especially either attack or casting... feels odd.

    I like the OPs idea, the con stat is never going to be more than 20... its no more overpowered than hexblade using charisma for both casting and attack.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    its no more overpowered than hexblade using charisma for both casting and attack.
    Gods I hate the hexblade.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Quote Originally Posted by djreynolds View Post
    But con is humbly, IMO, the stat we all use. And to have it as a main stat, especially either attack or casting... feels odd.

    I like the OPs idea, the con stat is never going to be more than 20... its no more overpowered than hexblade using charisma for both casting and attack.
    You may be surprised to know that (a) I somewhat disagree with this assertion, as the Hexblade is specifically compensating for the weaknesses of a class that implies you can do melee fighting but fails to actually support it, and (b) I somewhat agree with this assertion, in that I would prefer the Hexblade also be less mono-stat-focused.

  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    What about this, instead of giving them extra SP equal to their Charisma modifier, we half it and round up. With a 12 they get 1 extra SP, with a 14 they get 1, with a 16 they get 2, with an 18 they get 2, with a 20 they get 3. They also get a number of MM options equal to their Charisma modifier.

    At level 10 their extra meta magic equals their Charisma modifier, so with a 20 they get 5 SP instead of 3.

    At level 17 a 1st level spell slot only cost 1sp to regain.

    I'm going to edit the OP with these changes.
    Last edited by Whiskeyjack8044; 2019-11-16 at 04:00 PM.

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    I dont think iíve ever made a PC with a Con other than 14, this might prompt a nice change.

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    Personally I think you need to scrap any and all reasons for CHA. Make them a pure con caster.
    In games that don't feature non-stop combat, HP isn't a huge concern for non-melee folks IME. Meanwhile, CHA is full of candy goodness. You don't need to be bribed into taking it. It is already bribing you. Meanwhile con has zero active uses, it isn't sexy.

    And also, add me to those voting against Sorcs being the noob friendliest of casters. Metamagics are not intuitive or evocative. Picking invocations for a warlock is MUCH easier.

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    Default Re: A comprehensive argument for Sorcerers being Con casters

    @BigMouth

    They do need a reason to not put everything into one stat and any class Design has to take into account all playstyles. If you are a Sorcerer in a dungeon crawl those hitpoints are going to give you a huge advantage.

    I think Sorcerer are simpler. I compare them to Monks; spend points do this. Almost everyone I've played with are people who I've introduced to the game. I say its noob friendly because I've witnessed it.

    Most of the Sorcerer class features are passive or otherwise very straightforward. Warlocks on the other hand requires you to pick a Patron which does many different things, a Boon which does many different things, and Evocations which do many other things, along with spell selection. Now for a veteran player these are hugely complex, but when you are also learning about everything else in the game it can be daunting to remember everything you can do. Thus I believe Sorcerers to be the most noob friendly.

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