If You Were A Cleric...

[Aotrs Commander]

So, you are Ey Cl'Rick of [Aligned] God. God comes to you one day while you're washing the peasants or polishing the cerimonal font to regulation standard or cleaning the sarcifical knife or spinning in a circling and going wowowowowo or something, [Alignment] depending and he/she/it/they says:

"Hey, Ey Cl'Rick, my dude, it's God, in the flesh. Yeah, don't bother with the prostration, lemmee get right to the point, yeah?

"Wow, my [alignment] Domain power really sucks, don't it? (Healing domain's too, but that's for another day...) That +1 [alignment] caster level just doesn't cut it, does it, on top of the pretty mediocre spells I give you? (Admittedly, they aren't all terrible spells, but you can cast most of 'em normally, right?) So, me and the pantheon have been talking, and we've come to an arrangement, like. We're going to basically re-write the laws of the universe to make that +1 caster level not be a thing anymore, only for balance (and I don't mean, like Law), it's all got to be pretty equal, y'know?"

"In the end, after much debate, we all agreed we couldn't, like, give you anything that makes your straight more numerical powerful or anything, 'cos frankly the flack we get from all the non-primary casters is, like, bad enough already, we're having to re-write reality even more just to shut THEM all up, y'know?

"We came up with three possible ideas, and then drew lots, and I won and then you, my dear Ey Cl'Rick won, so you get to decide and make the decision for the whole of reality, since you were daft, I mean, pious, enough to pick [Aligned] Domain! Ain't this the best thing ever?

"Here's your chance then, to make a decision. This is gonna be, like, a permentant change that affects everyone, so you only get to pick one. Well, maybe if someone grovelled hard enough we might make a feat or something, but...

Which of the following would you rather trade out your +1 caster level for [Aligned] spells for (using Good as the example, because they shouted louder than everyone else):

1) Holy Bolt (Sp): 3+Wis mod/day, 30-foot ranged touch attack dealing D4+ 1/2 cleric levels to Evil creatures (no damage to nonevil creatures). Maybe an alignment-flavoured status for some flavour on a critical. I mean, that last part is just kind of a throw-away, y'know, but like the Chaos guys argured really hard for Confusion for 1 round and the Law guys wanted Staggered or something (we said no to Paralyse), so we're considering it.

We already agreed to change the elemental domains like Fire and stuff and replaced that whole "turn/rebuke" thing, since the consensus was it was just a bad, swingy mechanic and needed replacing with channel energy, so we gave them bolts we stole out of that other universe next door where they look for paths or something. And we thought, we'll, that's an easy solution, right? Doody magic ranged attack maybe?

2) Holy Ward (Su): 3+Wis/day, activated as Swift to you, Standard to anyone else, 5+ 1/2 cleric levels temporary hit points against attacks from Evil creatures. Basically like, holy starship shields - or a sort of Stoneskin - if you take my meaning; precise wording to follow possibly later.

3) Your attacks and spells ignore Protection from Good and similar effects as if you weren't Good (because you're SO devoted to Good that it punches through the flimsey protection); alternatively, maybe some sort of free dispel attempt (or suppression for a duration instead?) against that sort of protection on a hit?

"So waddya say, Ey Cl'Rick, halp your old God out, man, which you you prefer?"



"No, seriously, dude; get up off the floor and make the decision, you're bumming me out with all that grovelling, man..."

Spoiler: The Boring Stuff

Show

Brainstorming again...

So CLOSE to finishing my current system overhaul! (Then I'll finally shut and go away...!) One of the last obstacles is the Ardent on Divine Mind, and through a complex series of events, this had lead me to look at Cleric Domains, and particulary the alignment domains, which basically suck monkey balls. (And yet, in the case of Evil are an extremely common on NPCs...)

So I don't want to go Full Pathfinder on the domain powers, since a) 3.5 clerics DON'T need any extra boosts and b) I do NOT want to have to go through all... Nearly 90 domains from 3.5 in active use and tweak them up or even replaces them with the PF ones (and have to make up equivilents for the ones PF doesn't have). So I'm aiming for something a little more conservative and just tweaking some of the worst that are likely to come up most often.

That said, I also don't want to give the clerics something that would be a direct numerical buff (e.g. + something damage verses opposed alignment, which as another obvious one.) I've already discarded the idea of just taking PF's touch-based powers. I considered straight attacks are aligned (for Some Time/Uses per day).



(The reason Ardent and Divine Mind play into this is I'm basically going to (have!) linked the mantles to domains (because making mantles truly equivilent to domains like they conceptually were is a lot of work and requires twice as many notes for each diety) and letting the get the granted powers and manifest the spells as SLAs (so a bit like getting a free domain spell per day, only you can't swap it out).)

[zlefin]

Thank you for the generous offer, but I like my +1 caster level, there's quite a few spells where it's helpful, and it feels quite thematic.

the first is pitifully weak if I'm reading it right, and becomes nigh useless at higher levels.

second is solid, possibly quite strong early (maybe a bit too strong early, depending on duration, an extra 30+hp in temp hp is pretty strong at level 1).

the third just doesn't make sense; and it's alternatives are too ill-defined. issues with the protection from X line are best fixed by fixing that line rather than by shoehorning something weird into the domain powers.

[AvatarVecna]

3 is either boring (since I don't make many natural attacks, or force many saving throws, and I can't share this benefit with any summons), or overpowered (depending on how loosely we're interpreting "similar effects").

2 is weird. Even if we ignore that alignment-based THP aren't a thing, it's weird making the universal alignment power "protection from differently-thinking violence". Seems a bit on-the-nose, y'know? At the same time, alignment-base DR would probably have to be sharply limited in duration even if it'd accomplish something similar, and anyway I doubt Evil clerics are gonna be super-invested in protecting people besides themselves, especially with increased action cost.

1 seems okay, particularly if they get that status effect. Maybe Staggered for Lawful, Confused for Chaos, Sickened for Evil, and Fascinated for Good? Maybe? But also it's pretty lame the higher-level you get...maybe instead of the kinda lame damage being its own separate attack, it could be a sort-of smite, where it modifies an existing attack or single-target spell?

[Quertus]

The temp HP would be cool, if I had some way to know the alignment of an incoming attack, and not waste it on a guess. Like, "<ding> you are about to take damage from an <evil> source - would you like to activate your temporary HP?"

[Kelb_Panthera]

If those are my only 3 choices, I'd go with 1.

2 is just plain weird, almost to the point of nonsensical. I'm tougher but only if my enemy is on the opposite end of the cosmic spectrum? Seems kinda fiddly to boot. I have to track both my real HP and the temp ones, hit by hit? Meh.

3 is nonsensical. Good and evil energies are directly disruptive to one another. That's why prot from X and DR/X works in the first place. Dispelling is pointless since that's on virtually every full caster's list anyway, along with a few partial casting PrCs.

If I'm being totally honest though, the +1 CL may be boring but it's by no means -weak-. Caster level boosts outside of temporary spells and circle magic are fairly rare and fairly small. That one more is nice to have even if it is a humble, passive feature.

[Calthropstu]

3 could be made quite useful if you change the wording a bit.

"Any spell you cast with your alignment descriptor that targets an entity with protection from your alignment will attempt to dispel any such effect before affecting them. Make a dispel check adding your caster level. If your check is successful, the protection ends as if hit with a successful dispel magic."

[Thunder999]

The first one is rubbish (just like the proposed/pathfinder elemental domains) it's pitiful damage, worse than a reserve feat.
The third doesn't make much sense and isn't all that useful anyway, the only part that is really likely to affect a cleric is the compulsion protection and clerics don't usually get the good compulsions anyway.
The second however, could be fun, like most alignment stuff it favours good, since the average good character fights plenty of evil foes and it's only a swift action.

I'd probably rather have the +1 CL though, it's fun with holy word and there's some neat stuff you can do by aligning spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

They're honestly all pretty bad. I think the only thing that would convince me to take [Alignment] Domain is if the domain power was gaining [Alignment] Devotion as a bonus feat.

[Aotrs Commander]

Okay, making notes (I also asked the same of my players)...

#2 and #3 don't seem to be passing muster, from concensus.

#1 seems marginally better received, but not by much.

(Suggesting that Bleakbane revision (including it and the elemental line) ought to go from 30-foot to 30-foot range bands, and maybe allowing one use to give you iteratives is you use a Full Attack. Or, make it at-will as an attack, but only deal D4+Cha bonus; then someone that really wanted to could specialise in a Holy Bolt or firebolt zen archery cleric or something (though, I mean, warlock, but hey...))

Thank you for the generous offer, but I like my +1 caster level, there's quite a few spells where it's helpful, and it feels quite thematic.

If I'm being totally honest though, the +1 CL may be boring but it's by no means -weak-. Caster level boosts outside of temporary spells and circle magic are fairly rare and fairly small. That one more is nice to have even if it is a humble, passive feature.

I'd probably rather have the +1 CL though, it's fun with holy word and there's some neat stuff you can do by aligning spells.

So, aside from the Holy Word line of spells¹, what spells do you think actually benefit from +1 CL? I ask because I cannot recall, in actual practise, it coming up on either side of the screen in my own games at all, especially in a meaningful fashion.




¹Which took precisely one instance of being used on me as a PC and being paralysed no-save, nothing I could do (alogn with several other PCs) and one instance of me realising I could not use that spell on the PCs as a BBEG (else TPK by any even moderately savvy evil/good cleric) to smack with the nerf hammer. Will save negates now, thank you... Which is apparently harder than even PF nerfed them, but there you go.

[zlefin]

I don't get to play much, so my actual experience is limited. now that I look more closely, the list of spells that benefit is rather slim, at least in core. What's unfortunate is that a few of the spells on the domain list don't actually get the tag, so they don't benefit.
It's nice for summoning suitable monsters, at least at the lower levels where the duration benefit is pertinent.

ofc benefiting the holy word line is a big deal, even with your described nerf.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So, aside from the Holy Word line of spells¹, what spells do you think actually benefit from +1 CL? I ask because I cannot recall, in actual practise, it coming up on either side of the screen in my own games at all, especially in a meaningful fashion.

All of them if you cast Mark of Enlightened Soul (DrM) to give all of your spells the good descriptor. Especially if you persist it.
The spell turns a situational and kinda weak bonus into a pretty solid one. There's also an evil version.

If you don't count being harder to dispel and having longer duration there's still anything that gets better with CL like Magic Vestment, various blasting spells, Dispel Magic and its variants, Divine Power etc.

[Aotrs Commander]

All of them if you cast Mark of Enlightened Soul (DrM) to give all of your spells the good descriptor. Especially if you persist it.
The spell turns a situational and kinda weak bonus into a pretty solid one. There's also an evil version.

If you don't count being harder to dispel and having longer duration there's still anything that gets better with CL like Magic Vestment, various blasting spells, Dispel Magic and its variants, Divine Power etc.

Okay, so if Mark of the Enlightend Soul is not on the list of available spells (because it comes from a source not in use; - I've never heard of that spell before) would you still think that +1 caster level for [alignment] spells still of value over somethng else?



Edit: To be absolutely crystal clear, I'm not trying to be snide or snarky or anything with any of this, I am genuinely looking for potential uses to evaluate whether or not to keep the ability.

[Glimbur]

You might need to split the domain power into four.
Good: grant temporary hp to one creature as a standard action, lasts 24 hours. Hp equal to cleric spellcaster level minimum 5, usable Cha mod times per day.
Might be overpowered.

The other 3 are trickier. Maybe Chaos lets you grant rerolls against Enchantment effects, Law gives a bonus to Sense Motive, and Evil gives a floating pool you can use to increase damage from spells or weapon attacks. These are not balanced against each other and are on the strong end of domain effects. Maybe you can't give all 4 alignment domains the same bonus and have it be both sensible and useful.

[GrayDeath]

... i`d cleric in the Morning.
I`d cleric in the Evening.
All over Faeruuuuun.....^^












More seriusly: If there was no even remotely convenient way of expanding the "+1CL to aligned Spells" to others, I would likely replace it with a clearer version of your second suggestion.

Or say an at will Positive Energy/Negative ENergy tocuh attack similarly to be chosen for good/Evil.
At WIll ehaling/Undead Bolstering etc is useful and fluffwise appropiate.

[AvatarVecna]

Here is the number of cleric spells by Alignment tag, separated into "core spells" and "all spells" by a slash:

Good: 8/77
Evil: 15/150
Lawful: 5/20
Chaotic: 5/19

You've perhaps heard a saying at some point along the lines of "90% of everything is crap", and this is largely true in 3.5 as well. Most feats are garbage, even caster feats. Most skills are garbage. Most spells are garbage. But some aren't, and so it's true here. Most every one of these spells will benefit from a +1 CL, at least in resisting dispelling, but probably also in duration, maybe in range, and maybe in area or number of targets...but few of them will have benefits beyond that. So in Core, outside of spells like the Summon Monster line (which make good use of the CL boost just by virtue of being great spells already), you can expect each alignment to have one spell that really takes advantage of the CL boost, except for Evil which should have two. And sure enough, each of them has their equivalent of Holy Word where every extra CL bumps the killed/screwed/debuffed/inconvenienced bands up one point...and then Evil also has Animate Dead, where the higher your CL gets, the more HD worth of undead you can animate at once, and the more total undead you can control. Extend this rule of thumb out into the rest of the edition, and you should expect 8 Good/15 Evil/2 Lawful/2 Chaotic spells to be taking real advantage of this CL bump. This isn't surprising: Good has one real splat (BoED), Evil has a handful (BoVD, FF, EE, LM, and so on), while Lawful and Chaotic have none, really. Let's see if it holds up to sorting these spells by "caster level" in the description...

Spoiler: Good (6 non-core)

Show

Chaav's Laugh (BoED, Clr 5) has a 1min/CL duration and gives 1d8+CL (max 1d8+20) Temp HP to every Good ally within the area (40 ft radius). A +1 CL here gives the group as a whole a lot more HP, especially if employed with Widen and an army. It also has a save-vs-debuff for evil creatures in the area, but CL doesn't affect that beyond normal benefits.

Light Of Courage (Comp Champ, Clr 6) enhances a single turning attempt before the end of the duration with extra damage to all undead affected - 1d8 per 2 CL, max 10d8. Not something you'd use all the time, but when fighting undead it gives Clerics of Good a solid buff.

Light Of Purity (Comp Champ, Clr 4) is similar, giving +1d6 turning damage per 4 CL. Less impactful but comes online earlier.

Righteous Burst (PH2, Clr 7) targets all creatures in a 30ft burst, healing allies and hurting enemies for 1d8+CL (max 1d8+35). Enemies get a save for half. Solid for adventuring parties opposing each other, absurd for any situation involving armies facing off.

Righteous Exile (FC2, Clr 9) targets evil creatures in a 20ft burst, dealing 20d6 damage and forcing evil outsiders to make a Will save vs being banished to their home plane. The Save DC is lowered by their HD, but raised by your CL.

Shield Of Warding (SC, Clr 3) lasts 1min/CL and gives a sacred bonus to AC/Reflex that increases with CL while carrying the buffed shield. Prime DMM: Persist material right here.

Spoiler: Evil (11 non-core)

Show

Animate Legion (HoB, Clr 4) is "mass Animate Dead, but it's temporary and makes half as many as Animate Dead possibly could". +1 CL means an extra round of duration (which matters a lot here) and an extra 2 HD created.

Consumptive Field (LM, Clr 4) and Greater Consumptive Field (LM, Clr 7) are common charop fodder. CL bonus based on people who die in your radius, capped at your original CL. Every +1 CL you can get on the original spell increases the maximum CL bonus you can get by 2...and the CF/GCF CL bonus affects all your spells. This is a way to turn "+1 CL on evil spells" into "+2 CL on all spells" temporarily...which can be "for 1 round per CL" or "all day" depending on if you Persist it.

Death Dragon (SC, Clr 7) gets an extra round of duration, which turns into an extra free casting of Inflict Critical Wounds (which arguably benefits, seeing as you're casting it via an [Evil] spell?).

General Of Undeath (SC, Clr 8) increases undead HD controlled by your CL for 24 hours.

Plague Of Undead (SC, Clr 9) is "mass Animate Dead", but unlike Animate Legion, it's got full Animate Dead limits, and it's permanent. Extra CL here is +4 HD created/controlled.

The "Summon Undead" spell line (SC, Clr 1-5) benefits like Summon Monster does, but also the toughest undead you're allowed to summon improves with your CL a bit.

Spoiler: Lawful (1 non-core)

Show

Checkmate's Light (SC, Clr 3) is a much shorter duration version of Greater Magic Weapon that improves faster (+1/3 CL) and also counts the weapon as lawful. Additionally, it can't be stolen and used against you, in case that matters. Solid DMM: Persist fodder here.

Spoiler: Chaotic (1 non-core)

Show

Extract Gift (FC1, Clr 5) gives a permanent enhancement bonus to a single attribute, or a permanent competence bonus to a single skill, based on your CL.

So...yeah. That rule held up pretty well, I think.

Oh, and while I didn't check this, you should probably look over Sanctified and Corrupt spells - I think Clerics get access to them, and they're almost certainly all [Good]/[Evil] respectively, and based on my findings thus far, you can expect about 10% of them to benefit from this CL boost.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, aside from the Holy Word line of spells¹, what spells do you think actually benefit from +1 CL? I ask because I cannot recall, in actual practise, it coming up on either side of the screen in my own games at all, especially in a meaningful fashion.

Literally all of the ones to which it applies. It's a statistics thing for me. Spell penetration? 5% better. Resist dispelling? 5% better. Duration on that summoned celestial badger? 1 more round. Etc and so on.

It may seem trivial at a glance but all those CL benefits stack up into real power, especially over time. Holy Word et al are just the spells most impacted because of how they work. If you pick up the consecrate or corrup spell metamagic, it can apply to whatever spell you want.

And like I said before, there aren't that many ways to grab CL boosts and they're all fairly small unless they're very temporary.